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The Susskind Counter Information Paradox?

  1. Sep 15, 2005 #1
    The Susskind "Counter Information Paradox?

    Recent programme here in the UK deals with the "Hawking Paradox",:

    The programme has two opposing views on Blackholes, Hawkings take and Susskind's take on BH "information" effects.

    But the really interesting thing to emerge from the programme, is the very suspect conference held in san-fran in 1980, does anyone know anything about this, and the conference organizer, Werner Heirhart?

    The programme detailed an interesting overview of Susskind's Academic history. This history was (according to the programme details), not in any particular area of Theoretical Physics. Susskind entered the Theoretical arena after meeting Hawking whilst attending a conference organized by a wealthy benefactor named, Werner Heirhart. The programme states that he (Heirhart),started out as a "car-salesman", and ventured into "Therapy" , of which involved a very suspect process of, psychological re-programming!.

    Susskinds own words on HES (Heirhart Seminar Training)?:They would put people in a room, keep them there for 16 hrs, not let them go to the bathroom, harrang them harrass, them and as a consequence of this they would emerge completely different people!

    [Was Susskind actually giving a first hand account of his own personal re-training experience?]

    So one has to ask was Susskind "reprogrammed", by the ex-carsalesman, or by hearing of Hawkings "information Paradox" at the unlikely meeting?

    Heirhart, who's mansion was in San Fransisco, and was the venue at which Susskind was attending, Heirhart claimed that his methods were somehow scientific!

    Hawking quote:Blackholes are places where space and time come to an end end and matter is crushed out of existence, if we could we understand how time comes to an end in Blackholes, it might help us understand how time began in the Big-Bang.

    Susskind's problems seems to have its roots contained within the "Hawking Paradox", which states that information is lost forever to the singularity within a Stellar Blackhole event horizon. This seems to have had a profound effect on Susskind.

    Susskind first heard of this when attending the above conference (which he appeared to be attending for un-related "psychological reasons", as he was at that time, not a theoretical bh physicist), and hawking was giving a talk on the "information Paradox".

    So there appears to be two fundamental factors that are really interesting, the first being that in 1980, Susskind was at a carreer "no-mans-land" and was going to an ex-car-salesman's mansion, for some psychological re-directional therapy? by a man who moved into a very suspect branch of Human re-conditioning, Werner Heirhart.

    Hawking was there to give a talk on his most recent "information paradox" work, the fact that the venue was attended by a large number of worldwide scientists, influenced by the no doubt, conference organizer's many inticing sweetners provided by their wealthy host?

    Here is a link for the IF Susskind's::http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/susskind03/susskind_index.html

    Now one has to ask if Susskind has a "conditional" psychological streak, emerging from his 1980's dealing with the car-salesman Heirhart? that is still running and active, which he, through his academic position at Stanford?

    Is this where the "Anthropic Conditioning" school of thinkers has emerged from?..with Susskind in the position of Psychological Kingpin! :biggrin:

    I am going to delve further into the actual Hawking "information Paradox", as Susskinds Anthropic, "Counter-Information-Paradox" seems to have its roots, by fact of Susskinds very..very suspect early 80's conference meetings?
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2005
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 15, 2005 #2
    Hawking has changed his opinion. You might find this interesting: http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0507171

    "The question of whether information is lost in black holes is investigated using Euclidean path integrals. The formation and evaporation of black holes is regarded as a scattering problem with all measurements being made at infinity. This seems to be well formulated only in asymptotically AdS spacetimes. The path integral over metrics with trivial topology is unitary and information preserving. On the other hand, the path integral over metrics with non-trivial topologies leads to correlation functions that decay to zero. Thus at late times only the unitary information preserving path integrals over trivial topologies will contribute. Elementary quantum gravity interactions do not lose information or quantum coherence."

    Hawking concluded information isn't lost in black holes.
  4. Sep 15, 2005 #3
    Yes, I know this fact,[Hawking is working on another scientific BH aspect at this moment] but I think there is an underlaying aspect to the Hawking Paradox, and this is not Scientific, it is Counter Scientific?

    I am going to watch the programme again, but it's revelelations on Susskind's "Anthropic Roots", are causing some concern, one can ask if Hawking has been "mentally" reconditioned or "scientifically" challenged? by a number of very..very suspect pre-organized?.. intentional deceptive motives?

    Nevertheless, the Hawking "Information Paradox" has another little known consequence, and I will address this for sure.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2005
  5. Oct 1, 2005 #4
    it sounds like u think uve got sumthing to blow the minds of the scientific community with. I guess i believe the same with my theories and mine predict that information isn't lost. It is awfully simple but wil keep tight lipped till more thinking has been dun
  6. Oct 2, 2005 #5


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    Werner Erhard is the actual name of this person, see this link for more info:

  7. Oct 2, 2005 #6
    Many thanks good Dr!

    A very interesting article, it seems the Anthropic Movement have their roots evolved from a "thought-control", egotistical perfection? of self-worth, via self-hypnosis!..and that is just for starters.

    If one picks an argument with an highly paid "Anthropic A-gent",(Argumentative Gentleman), then one had better be aware that this
    "A-GENT", will always fall back on his OWN opinions based on a life of self-promotion and high egotistical tendancies?

    I do see some gate's where Anthropic Reasoning cannot vault over, and from the linked post this seems true: It doesn't offer much to people who haven't got a clue what their objectives are or should be. Some of his ideas can be harmful, if not properly applied. For example, some people are taught that they should always talk positive, even if this means lying.

    The last sentence seems pretty close to the Stringtheorists stance on selective answers to specific questions?..mathematically speaking, one can apply Anthropic Solutions to the Information Paradox and Stringtheory?..thus the compact energy of a finite string is always constant and never varies, no matter what its source vibrational mode is, it can always be re-normalized, regardless of its background.

    Stating:Information can never be lost, is like stating strings do not have differing vibrational modes?

    Information can be lost locally, just as strings can have local vibrational modes that are different from their Global signatures, Information can be lost to a Far-Away Horizon, or a local dimensional paramiter of Space-Volume.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2005
  8. Oct 4, 2005 #7


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    This is crazy talk, Susskind is one of the very brightest high energy physicists alive in the world today. His work is far ranging, in general relativity, string theory, particle physics, field theory and quantum measurement.

    To some how equate subscribing to the anthropic principle to being pscyhologically reprogrammed by some crackpot is the hight of absurdity.
  9. Oct 4, 2005 #8
    But the fact is from Susskinds own mouth?

    I do not in any way lessen the fact that Susskind may be quite bright, one of the processes of High Pressure sales involves self-belief, over and beyond the call of duty, duty being truth.

    In the linked post, which you may not have read?, there is a little passage detailing a process that "appears" on first glance to be the 'stringtheory-motto'?

    Quote from skeptic posting:Some of his ideas can be harmful, if not properly applied. For example, some people are taught that they should always talk positive, even if this means lying. Even if you haven't made a sale in two years, you must put on a positive front and tell everyone that business couldn't be better. Even if you know nothing about the product you are selling, you must praise it beyond belief. Even if you are experiencing one failure after another, you must lie to yourself and tell yourself that you are doing great. You must never blame the product for not selling. You must try harder, have more faith, be more positive. Maybe you need to take advanced courses to help you succeed. By the time you wake up, you are bankrupt and those who were cheering you on (your "sponsors") are nowhere to be found.

    The above passage has some intruiging aspects that appear to be prevelent to the leading stringtheory stalwarts.

    I was shocked at the revelation about Susskinds early career, but looking with hindsight, I now see where he formulates most of his opinions.
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