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The thoughts of terrorists

  1. Dec 17, 2003 #1
    Question: If you were involved in terrorism (although for your won cause you would probably call it freedom fighting), why would you attack innocent civilians?

    Sure, the idiot answer is "to create terror". But "terror" is not the goal. It is a tool.

    Surely they must realise that they will never gain international support if they target innocent civilians.

    Do you think:
    - They don't want support?
    - They want support but are REALLY stupid?
     
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  3. Dec 17, 2003 #2

    russ_watters

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    I think they don't CARE about international support. The goal of these terrorists (you don't say specifically who you are talking about, but I'm assuming you mean Middle Eastern terrorists) is mostly just killing Americans for the sake of killing Americans.
     
  4. Dec 17, 2003 #3

    selfAdjoint

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    Probably many of the low level "soldiers" just want to kill the evil others. But the people who deploy and arm them have more complex agendas. Hamas wants to eliminate the state of Israel. Many of the attackers in Iraq want to encourage the Americans and British to leave, and discourage the Iraqis from cooperating with the occupiers.
     
  5. Dec 17, 2003 #4
    Actually, without going into my personal definition of terrorism, I was referring to groups such as the twits who blew up some Iraqi civilians last night with a truck bomb, and the morons in the Philippines who kidnapped some tourists, and those idiotic Spanish gits who also blow up buses and such...
     
  6. Dec 17, 2003 #5

    FZ+

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    Terror is the goal. Hence the term, terrorists. Such groups cannot hope to annihilate each and every american - instead, their goal is to undermine and destabilise the entire american structure.

    The terrorists are more media savvy than you think. In general, each group probably has a target audience. In Iraq, it may be far right islamists who are growing disillusioned with the US handling. In the Philippines, it may be nationalist rural folk. In each of those cases, they know that to the majority of their audience, the biased public tends to play to their favour. In Iraq for example, poor domestic media and lack of faith in the admin means people can easily justify killings as "justice on collaborators" and suchlike. Mishandling of certain incidents heighten this. (Notice how many Iraqis are explaining Saddam's lack of resistance as due to use of drugs?) In the Philippines, most of their potential supporters don't care about the plight of tourists anyways...

    In terrorism, as in politics, you can't please everyone. You pick the people you want to recruit, and press the right buttons. And people aren't always rational.
     
  7. Dec 17, 2003 #6

    russ_watters

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    I really do think its more basic than that. I'm sure the Hamaas leadership knows a bunch of car bombs isn't going to kill EVERY Israeli, but I think its good enough to the individual bomber that they kill as many Israelis as possible.

    Also, the religious aspect really needs to be considered: suicide is part of the goal for religious reasons.
     
  8. Dec 17, 2003 #7
    Because only blood is newsworthy as far as international relations goes, Terrorists get on the news by making blood.
     
  9. Dec 17, 2003 #8

    Nereid

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    Don't forget that terror has several notable historical successes (in terms of the objectives of the terrorists), its role in the formation of the modern state of Israel springs to mind, for example.

    Perhaps a PF member well versed in the history of the USA can tell us which parties employed terror as a deliberate tool during various turbulent times in the past few hundred years' history of what are now called the 'lower 48', and how successful such tactics were (in terms of attaining the objectives of the perpetrators)?
     
  10. Dec 17, 2003 #9

    selfAdjoint

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    Notable terrorist organizations that come to mind from US history are the Mollie McGuires, the No Nothings, and of course the Ku Klux Klan.

    The Mollie McGuires were about labor abuses. They attacked scabs and businesses. I don't think they achieved their goal which was reform of labor laws.

    The No nothings were anti-immigration. They attacked immigrants. They failed.

    The Ku Klux Klan were against rights for Blacks. They also hated Catholics and Jews. They attacked all three. They were partly successful, turning back the post civil war rights of blacks and keeping them back for almost 100 years.
     
  11. Dec 17, 2003 #10
    All humans are terrorists. In War War 2, America nuked 100,000 civilians in Japan. Then America dropped fire bombs on Dresden in Germany right onto civilian residential areas. Eisenhower (I believe it was him) said that German civilians thought Americans were monsters, so we should thus play the role of monsters and terrorize civilians. 500,000 civilians were intentionally killed in Dresden and a few other German cities. PBS had a documentary on the WWII, they said America wanted to terrorize the German civilians so they would never again vote for national socialist politicians.

    Then consider bolshevism in Russia where the government killed millions of their own citizens.

    Israel intentionally targets Palestinian civilians in order to terrorize them into moving out of the land. And Israel killed 20,000 civilians when they invaded Lebanon some 30 or 40 years ago. So, terrorism is not unique to any specific people: it's in the nature of all humans to kill enemy civilians to win the wars. For more data on human terrorism see the following:

    http://www.antiwar.com/
    http://www.counterpunch.org/
    http://www.reportersnotebook.com/
    http://www.rense.com/
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2003
  12. Dec 17, 2003 #11
    The USA Terrorist State

    According to “The Random House Dictionary of the English Language”, Terrorism is;
    “3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.”

    If we start from the End of World War II. The Partisan Avengers in the former Balkan states, Italy, Greece etc. employed terrorist tactics after facing systematic extermination by the Americans in the immediate months following ceasefires.

    However, Israel began the modern era of terrorism.
    Zionist terrorism (how they formed the current Israeli state);
    http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/publish/article_58.shtml
    They were extremely successful, forming the State of Israel.

    Heres the American style;
    CIA and USA military Terrorist Actions since WWII;
    http://www.word-power.co.uk/catalogue/1842773690
    1. China 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-Tung just paranoid?
    2. Italy 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
    3. Greece 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
    4. The Philippines 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony
    5. Korea 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
    6. Albania 1949-1953: The proper English spy
    7. Eastern Europe 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
    8. Germany 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
    9. Iran 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
    10. Guatemala 1953-1954: While the world watched
    11. Costa Rica mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally, Part one
    12. Syria 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
    13. The Middle East 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
    14. Indonesia 1957-1958:War and pornography
    15. Western Europe 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
    16. British Guiana 1953-1964: The CIA's international labour Mafia
    17. Soviet Union late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
    18. Italy 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism
    19. Vietnam 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
    20. Cambodia 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
    21. Laos 1957-1973: L'Armee Clandestine
    22. Haiti 1959-1963: The marines land, again
    23. Guatemala 1960: One good coup deserves another
    24. France/Algeria 1960s: L'etat, c'est la CIA
    25. Ecuador 1960-1963: A textbook of dirty tricks
    26. The Congo 1960-1964: The Assassination of Patrice Lumumba
    27. Brazil 1961-1964: Introducing the marvellous new world of death squads
    28. Peru 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
    29. Dominican Republic 1960-1966: Saving democracy from communism by getting rid of democracy
    30. Cuba 1959-1980s: The unforgivable revolution
    31. Indonesia 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno…and 500,000 others. East Timor 1975: and 200,000 more
    32. Ghana 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
    33. Uruguay 1964-1970: Torture - as American as apple pie
    34. Chile 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead
    35. Greece 1964-1974: '**** your Parliament and your Constitution,' said the President of the United States
    36. Bolivia 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat
    37. Guatemala 1962 to 1980s: A less publicised 'final solution'
    38. Costa Rica 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally, Part two
    39. Iraq 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
    40. Australia 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
    41. Angola 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
    42. Zaire 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
    43. Jamaica 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum
    44. Seychelles 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
    45. Grenada 1979-1984: Lying - one of the few growth industries in Washington
    46. Morocco 1983: A video nasty
    47. Suriname 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
    48. Libya 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
    49. Nicaragua 1981-1990: Destabilisation in slow motion
    50. Panama 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
    51. Bulgaria 1990: Teaching Communists what democracy is all about
    52. Iraq 1990-1991: Desert holocaust
    53. Afghanistan 1979-1992: America's Jihad
    54. El Salvador 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
    55. Haiti 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this man?

    Blum has documented most American terrorist actions, I'd like to add a few.
    Does anybody believe any other nation could beat this insanity?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2003
  13. Dec 17, 2003 #12
    Insert word Spoken by US President

    My favourite incident is number 35.

    “35. Greece 1964-1974: '**** your Parliament and your Constitution,' said the President of the United States”

    Atypical. People should really study these incidents. Any of the above will do. You will see the VERY SAME successful tactics employed by the USA in most occasions.
     
  14. Dec 17, 2003 #13

    russ_watters

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    Re: The USA Terrorist State

    As left wing as that is, where exactly in that link does it call any of those "terrorist actions"?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2003
  15. Dec 17, 2003 #14

    kat

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    Re: The USA Terrorist State

    Edit: OOPS!...*self edited* Use your imagination!:wink:
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2003
  16. Dec 17, 2003 #15
    I'm Stunned

    "Re: The USA Terrorist State
    quote:

    Originally posted by Nommos Prime (Dogon)
    CIA and USA military Terrorist Actions since WWII

    As left wing as that is, where exactly in that link does it call any of those "terrorist actions"?"

    Are you Fair Dinkum Russ? Read the bloody book!

    Russ, are you honestly trying to tell me that NOT 1 of those 55 examples of TERRORIST actions satisfies the definition of terrorist actions?

    ANYBODY OUT THERE.
    Can anybody give 10 examples (by any other nation under the sun – except the ex-Soviets) of terrorist actions by a State? Lets try.
    Bet you can’t even name 10 for Iraq.
     
  17. Dec 17, 2003 #16

    kat

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    Re: I'm Stunned

    Are you farkin nuts? Is that the 10 a week, 10 a day, 10 an hour, 10 a minute against it's own people?
    and what the heck is a Fair Dinkum? and why are you continuously name calling?
     
  18. Dec 17, 2003 #17
    We have to understand that what the CIA discloses to the American media is often different from what our government actually does. Do you recall Rumsfeld claiming that he was going to launch the Beauro of Disinformation, where the goal was to fabricate stories to push for various foreign and domestic policies. The story got out and Rumsfeld cancelled the program, or rather kept the program secretly. The average american has no way of verifying what the CIA says, we are never eye-wittnesses to what really goes on, we simply assume that the CIA never lies, the complete opposite of human nature. Politicians are career politicians, meaning that their number one priority is keeping their political careers, not serving the interest of citizens. Yes, a small handful of politicians do have a morality that pushes them to be honest: these politicians usually get thrown out, leaving only dishonest/criminal/psychopathic politicians in the government. I read a paper in the past of how politicians test high on the personality trait of psychopathology, the personality trait found in criminals such as murderers, rapists, and armed robberors.

    So, how did we ever arrive in this mess?

    Well, if you look at the origins of humans, before the creation of large civilizations, we used to be hunter/gatherers in groups no larger than 150 people. Each member of the group could easily keep an eye on others in the small group and thus elites were watched and kept in check. Elites that were psychopathic/criminal were killed. Then came civlization and our brains never adapted to large nation-like civilizations. Now, elites are isolated and nicely hidden from public scrutiny, and criminal elites can't be identified. They can do what they want, and the average person has no way of finding out. We have 300 million people in America, far detached from the elites who occupy Washington D.C. The solution: alter the human brain from one that is still built to live in groups of 150 people to one that can deal with a 300 million nation, see http://www.neoeugenics.com/

    Carlos Hernandez
     
  19. Dec 18, 2003 #18

    Nereid

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    AFAIK, 'fair dinkum' is an Australian expression, meaning 'true', 'honest', 'straight', 'genuine', etc. So Dogon is asking if Russ is giving him the straight scoop, or is instead just dissembling, being sarcastic, ...
    http://www.australianbeers.com/culture/fairdinkum.htm
     
  20. Dec 18, 2003 #19

    russ_watters

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    Re: I'm Stunned

    No. But thats not what I said, not what you said, and not what the page said.
    I doubt I have ever met anyone who assumes that.
     
  21. Dec 18, 2003 #20
    10 terrorist acts by states

    1) England killing of heaps of Australian aborigines.

    2) Europeans, then the USA after the war of Independence, killing off heaps of Americans Indians.

    3) USA bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    4) Robert Mugabe's government terrorising the whites in Zimbabwe.

    5) France blowing up the Rainbow Warrior.

    6) Australian and USA intelligence groups assisting with the organisation and execution of the Indonesian takeover of East Timor.

    7) USA and Britain bombing the hell out of Dresden, Duseldorf, Hamburg, and many other German cities.

    8) NAZI Germany bombing civilian cities and exterminating huge numbers of civilians.

    9) Japan's treatment of civilians during their occupation of Nanking.

    10) China's massacre in Red Square a few years back.

    Pick any country, and you can find a bunch of things which fall under my own definition of terrorism: attacking civilians, rather than the state or state assets. No nation has any moral high ground.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2003
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