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The UFO Napster

  1. Jun 6, 2003 #1
    Ladies and Gentleman,

    Ivan Seeking has brough up the idea of a "UFO Napster" of sorts that is similar to the Physics/Math Napster found in the Physics forum. These are the basic guidelines that Ivan has provided as to separate genuine scientific efforts and crackpottery and speculation.

    These contributions should abide by these following guidelines:

    1). Quotes and links from scientific papers and references

    2). Reports from newspapers not found in grocery stores e.g. The National Enquirer, The Star, etc.

    3). Major media links e.g. NBC, CBS, BBC etc.

    4). Government links, or other official agency links such as foreign government sites, foreign news services, or any otherwise respectable source. Also, no posts from Pravda pllleeeeaaase!

    5). Some latitude is allowed but links and posts made in blatant violation of the spirit of this UFO Napster will be deleted upon request.

    6). Quotes and links only; no arguments are to be made here.

    Any post that violates the general guidelines will be dealt with appropriately.

    Any questions or comments, please feel free to IM me. Thanks.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2003
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  3. Jun 6, 2003 #2

    Ivan Seeking

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    Iran 1976: Military Intelligence Report to the NSA

    One of the major UFO events of modern times - known as the Iran 1976 event - provides a nice snapshot of a high quality report.

    Listed below are links to .pdf files at the National Security Agency; Freedom of Information Act, UFO results page. Found there are official copies of the original documents. Included in this first file are the distribution list/ routing, and a brief analysis of the event. Then the encounter is described in good detail.

    The comments read:

    The distribution of this report from defense intelligence includes the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State, CIA, NSA, White House, the CSA and others. Be sure to read the entire report.

    *This is the original report*

    Better copy: see attached

    Video testimony and a reenactment of the events in Iran, with contributions from the former Iranian Government. Less one reference made in a CIA document, I am not aware of any official documentation beyond the report above. There is some information and a few claims made near the end of this video report not found in the NSA document, however I know of no reason to reject the additional details provided. The rest of the story is recounted fairly accurately.

    Next, like the Iran '76 event above, this is a classic. One evening I spent about an hour on the telephone with Col Halt - former Deputy Commander of Bentwaters AFB - and I found his account to be most fascinating. A close encounter at RAF Woodbridge [aka the Bentwaters AFB, Rendlesham Forest incident]:

    The official report

    Video testimony related to the official document above, and a reenactment of events as described by military personnel.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3492503939374176165&q=UFO+1980+Bentwaters+Woodbridge [Broken]

    The official Ministry of Defense files are linked later in this Napster.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  4. Jun 6, 2003 #3

    Ivan Seeking

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    Some reports and resources available from the U.S. government

    Many raw UFO reports from the Air Force.

    350 UFO files from the CIA:
    Go to the Freedom of Information Act, CIA homepage; search UFO.

    FBI foia page for unusual phenomena: [The real X-Files]

    An assorted mix of raw military reports. Many are not UFOs, but some reports are worth a look.

    The NSA, FOIA, UFO Files:

    Office of the Secretary of Defense/Joint Staff Electronic Reading Room Documents Concerning UFO's

    NARA [National Archives and Records Administration]
    FOIA Reading Room;

    DOD UFO FAQ page

    Navy FAQ UFO page
    http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq29-1.htm [Broken]

    http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/97unclass/ufo.html [Broken]


    Also, one finds oddities such as this: Communication with E.T [a how to manual]:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  5. Jun 6, 2003 #4

    Ivan Seeking

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    Projects Sign and Grudge - the official investigations of the UFO phenomenon begin

    Although Project Bluebook [next post below] is the definitive U.S. government study of UFOs, and though this is mainly historical information, projects Sign and Grudge mark the beginning of the official recognition of the UFO phenomenon.

    * Many people have researched all of this and copies of the official documents referenced in this post are widely distributed and shown in the media, however I am still working to find official sources on the internet. In many cases these older files have only been available on microfilm at the national archives. Better sources for this information will be added as they become available.*

    Project Sign

    http://rc.nicap.org/sign.htm [Broken]
    http://www.ufoscience.org/history/swords.pdf [Broken]

    The Schulgen Memo

    The Twining letter

    The Walker memo

    Other 1947 FOIA [Freedom of Information Act] memos: More are coming online every day.

    Project Grudge


    Until I can provide official sources for everything, in spite of appearances, this site does have a respectable database of official document photos: http://www.blackvault.com/
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  6. Jun 6, 2003 #5

    Ivan Seeking

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    Project Bluebook and the USAF on UFO's.

    Project Bluebook:

    The official position

    Online Archive

    Condon Report

    *Analysis of Condon Report*
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/sturrock_condon/toc.html [Broken]

    Unsolved Bluebook cases
    http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/bluebookunknowns-v1-6.pdf [Broken]

    Secretary of Defense on the end of project Bluebook

    Note: It is widely argued that Condon's summary of the report is not representitive of the report. I suggest a complete review before drawing any conclusions.

    Also see:
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/sturrock_condon/toc.html [Broken]

    Ruppelt - Former head of Project Bluebook

    U.S. Air Force Fact Sheet

    The general position of the USAF:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  7. Jun 6, 2003 #6

    Ivan Seeking

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    Some scientific papers and essays on UFOs

    I will be adding here from time to time

    *The COMETA Report: Description*
    http://www.cufos.org/cometa.html [Broken]

    *COMETA Report*

    Alternate source:
    The COMETA Report Part 1
    http://www.narcap.org/COMETA_Part1.pdf [Broken]
    The COMETA Report Part 2
    http://www.narcap.org/COMETA_Part2.pdf [Broken]

    Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) in the UK Air Defence Region
    Project Condign
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/PublicationScheme/SearchPublicationScheme/UnidentifiedAerialPhenomenauapInTheUkAirDefenceRegion.htm [Broken]
    See also:

    J. Deardorff, B. Haisch, B. Maccabee and H.E. Puthoff
    Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol 58, pp. 43-50, 2005.

    Are UFO Events related to Sidereal Time - Jacques F. Vallee
    PF Thread

    The UFO Controversy in America
    by Dr. J. Allen Hynek, 1975
    http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/ufocontroversy.pdf [Broken]

    Refuting Fermi: John B Alexander Ph.D.

    What Is The Responsibility Of The Scientist?
    by Dr. J. Allen Hynek, 1966

    UFOs, Social Intelligence, and the Condon Committee:

    Still in Default
    by Dr. Bruce Maccabee
    http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/stillindefault.pdf [Broken]

    Physical Evidence Related to UFO Reports
    The Proceedings of a Workshop Held at the
    Pocantico Conference Center, Tarrytown, New York
    September 29 – October 4, 1997 :
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/sturrock/toc.html [Broken]

    Unidentified Flying Objects: An Historical Perspective
    American Society of Mechanical Engineers
    Design Engineering Conference
    George W. Earley
    Americana Hotel, New York City
    May 15-18, 1967

    Richard F. Haines, Ph.D.
    Copyright 1992

    "The UFO hypothesis and Survival Questions"
    ---declassified from SECRET.

    Atmosphere or UFO?
    by Bruce Maccabee Ph.D.
    Optical physicist for the Navy Deparment
    --on RADAR events
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/maccabee/1.html [Broken]

    Bruce S. Maccabee, Ph.D.
    http://www.nidsci.org/articles/maccabee/acceleration.html [Broken]

    The Case for the Extraterrestrial Origins of Flying Saucers
    by Stanton Friedman
    http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/friedman.pdf [Broken]

    Unexplained Phenomena Need Scrutiny, Science Group Says
    By Kathy Sawyer
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Monday, June 29, 1998; Page A01

    Re: French Government UFO Study

    Catalog of Military, Airliner, Private Pilots’ Sightings from 1916 to 2000

    USAF contacts with the Joint Intelligence Committee regarding UFOs.
    http://www.cufos.org/IUR_article1.html [Broken]

    The Rockefeller Report:


    A Thesis Submitted to the Air and Staff College of
    Air University in Partial Fulfillment of The Requirements for Graduation - June 1968.

    Aviation Safety in America
    A Previously Neglected Factor (1)
    By Richard F. Haines
    http://www.narcap.org/REPORTS/AIRSAFETY_P1.HTM [Broken]

    A Preliminary Study of Sixty Four Pilot Sighting Reports
    Involving Alleged Electro-Magnetic Effects on Aircraft Systems
    http://www.narcap.org/REPORTS/Emcarm.htm [Broken]

    PROJECT 1947

    From Richard Hall, former Assistant Diretor of NICAP

    UFO Files: The Untold Story

    "Now You See It, Now You Don't" by Captain Henry S. Shields, HQ USAFE/INOMP

    More Scientific papers and reviews:
    Go to SSE and search UFO at the top of the page.

    See also NICAP, http://www.nidsci.org/articles/articles1.php [Broken], and UFO Skeptic
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  8. Jun 6, 2003 #7

    Ivan Seeking

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    Quotes of note

    Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter, Former Director of the CIA.
    1960 NICAP press conference

    Bernard Haisch, Ph.D.,
    Director of the California Institute For Physics and Astrophysics

    See 1998 Scientific review of the UFO question

    -- Dr. Peter A. Sturrock, Professor of Space Science and Astrophysics and Deputy Director of the Center for Space Sciences and Astrophysics at Stanford University; Director of the Skylab Workshop on Solar Flares in 1977

    -- Dr. J. Allen Hynek: Professor emeritus and chairman of the astronomy department at Northwestern University. Earlier, he was director of the Lundheimer Astronomical Research Center at Northwestern. He has written astronomy books and articles that have appeared in numerous science journals, as well as an astronomy column for Science Digest magazine. He was chief scientist for NASA's satellite tracking program, and for twenty years was the scientific consultant to the United States Air Force in the investigation of the UFO phenomenon. He is credited with coining the phrase "close encounters of the third kind" and was Steven Spielberg's technical consultant on the film of that name. Dr. Hynek died in April 1986.

    John Callahan
    FAA Division Chief of Accidents and Investigations

    Admiral Lord Hill-Norton;
    Former chief of the British Defense Staff

    Admiral Lord Hill-Norton;
    Former chief of the British Defense Staff

    Mercury & Gemini Astronaut, Colonel Gordon Cooper

    Astronaut Edgar Mitchell on the subject of UFOs

    US Navy Pilot, Lieutenant Frederick Fox

    -Dr. Richard F. Haines, retired NASA senior research scientist at Ames Research Center and the Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science where he worked on the International Space Station.--From the preface of his book, CE-5, 1998.

    Marine Corps, Corporal Jonathan Weygandt

    Former President Jimmy Carter
    ABC News interview

    Arthur C. Clarke

    Stanton Friedman

    Stephen Hawking: Millennium speech; The White House. :biggrin:

    More quotes of note:
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2007
  9. Jun 6, 2003 #8

    Ivan Seeking

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    DOD News Conference of note

    [URL [Broken] ]http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug1997/t08051997_t0805asd.html

    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  10. Jun 7, 2003 #9

    Ivan Seeking

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    Not one of my favorite subjects, this is some of the best information available.

    The USAF on Roswell:


    GAO report on Roswell to Congressman Schiff of New Mexico:

    A few observations:
    Note 1:
    Page 3 of the government response to Roswell states:
    However, on page 1, paragraph 1, sentence 1 of the General Accounting Office report requested by Congressman Schiff, we find:

    Note 2:
    A handwritten entry by Hoover; see page 45 of pdf#1 in the FBI UFO files.
    On television and in most of the current Roswell literature, this quote is often cited as evidence that Hoover had a continuing interest in the Roswell disc and the "other discs recovered". Here, it is shown that Hoover was asking about at least one case where the disc was known to be sixteen inches in diameter. I suspect that he was concerned about these being Soviet spying devices or weapons. Or, perhaps he was simply interested in arresting hoaxers, but I doubt he was interested due to concerns about ET.

    Please see this handwritten entry by Hoover; page 45 of pdf#1 in the FBI UFO files.
    July 15th, 1947; responding to the urging of others for the FBI to stay out of the UFO business, Hoover writes the following:
    Next, Hoover's memo is quoted and we see that the unreadable portion is the La. case. Please see the FBI pdf file; the first paragraph of p 38.

    Here is the definitive doc that shows clear knowledge by the FBI that the saucer in the La. case is "sixteen inches in diameter".
    See p 4 of 79 of the FBI pdf #2:

    It turns out that Bruce Maccabee makes this point clear in his book: The UFO/FBI Connection [2000].

    Note 3:
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
  11. Jun 7, 2003 #10

    Ivan Seeking

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    A few notable UFO case reports more than 50 years old

    I will be adding to this post from time to time.

    Lakenheath/Bentwaters; 1956
    A RADAR/visual case not to be confused with the Bentwaters AFB/ RAF Woodbridge, 1980 case.
    http://www.nicap.org/lakendir.htm [Broken]

    Commentary on Lakenheath by Dr. James E. McDonald:

    Missing F-89 Case; Michigan; 1953:
    http://www.nicap.org/kinrossdir.htm [Broken]

    The Ellsworth AFB; 1953
    http://www.nicap.org/ellsworthdir.htm [Broken]

    UFO's over Washington DC, 1952:

    The Nash/Fortenberry Sighting; 1952

    The McMinnville UFO; 1950:
    http://www.nicap.org/mcmindir.htm [Broken]

    Fargo, North Dakota - aka The Gorman/Fargo Incident; 1948
    http://www.nicap.org/gormandir.htm [Broken]

    The Kenneth Arnold Case; Near Mt. Ranier, Washington; June 24, 1947
    This is widely percieved as the case that started the modern UFO era
    http://www.nicap.org/arnolddir.htm [Broken]

    Note: If you look at Arnolds original report sketch at the bottom of the page http://www.nicap.org/arnoldka.htm [Broken]. Also, it was the next day - July 8th, 1947 - that the Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) public information office reported the recovery of a crashed disc.

    Los Angeles; 1942:
    One major WWII UFO event is inappropriately called The Battle of Los Angeles. I have some direct knowledge of this event since my father and other family members were there. The newspaper reports are widely available and the only real question is at what, if anything, did the civil defenses of Los Angeles fire over 1400 anti-aircraft rounds in 1942. The following link provides mostly factual information. Please ignore any introductory hype. The reports that follow are directly from the local papers of the time. Next, a link to Bruce Maccabee's analysis of the photos is given.
    PF Thread
    http://brumac.8k.com/BATTLEOFLA/BOLA1.html [Broken]

    This appears to be the actual news broadcast reporting on the event.
    WMP: http://mfile.akamai.com/5022/wma/coast.download.akamai.com/5022/clips/05/12/120705_cbs_news_ufo.asx
    Real Player: http://mfile.akamai.com/5022/rm/coast.download.akamai.com/5022/clips/05/12/120705_cbs_news_ufo.ram

    More from WWII:

    Himalayas; 1929:
    I contacted the Roerich Museum in New York and confirmed the following quote. The curator’s assistant, being very familiar with this excerpt, then added that Roerich’s wife was also on this expedition. In her diary she comments that this must have been a craft with people from somewhere else; then she suggests the existence of life on other planets. [Ivan]
    Next, from the San Francisco Call, Nov 26, 1896: This light was observed by many prominent individuals including Deputy Secretary of State George A. McCalvy, District Attorney Frank D. Ryan, and E. D. McCabe, the governor's personal secretary.
    Other potential references:

    Potential references to UFOs in art and literature.
    http://ufos.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=ufos&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crystalinks.com%2Fufohistory.html [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  12. Jun 7, 2003 #11

    Ivan Seeking

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    The Foo Fighters of WWII


    From CUFON - UFO Information Service Seattle, Washington

    History of UFO's During World War II
    During world war II the accumulation of sightings of mysterious celestial objects, finally started to worry the military authorities.

    In both camps, high-ranking officials of the intelligence services started to study these strange objects and investigation committees composed of military and scientific personnel were set up in various countries. They had a double purpose: first of all to determine the nature of these flying objects and then to see if they constituted a threat to the security of the nation.

    During world war II, the Allies, just like the Germans, noticed the presence of these enigmatic flying objects above their secret bases. The first reaction of each side was obviously to suspect espionage on the part of their enemy.

    In 1943 the British were the first to set up a special group to enquire into the question of these object. The British set up a small organization to collect evidence. It was headed by Lieutenant General Massey and was inspired by reports from a spy who, in fact was a double agent operating under the orders of the Mayor of Cologne. He had confirmed that the "Foo-fighters" were not German devices, but that the Germans thought that they were Allied weapons which, of course, the British knew was not so.

    Later in 1966, was learned from the British Aviation Minister that project Massey had been officially classified in 1944. Perhaps it was pure coincidence, but the double agent was denounced and executed at the beginning of that year. For their part the Germans did not remain inactive. But in 1944, the Wehemacht asked Oberkommando of the "Luftwaffe (aviation)" to set up a center to collect information on all the various sightings of these mysterious celestial objects.

    This was known as Sonderburo No 13 which, until the time of the German defeat scrupulously applied itself to its job. The short time that this commission was in existence prevented it from coming to any definite conclusions, but it collected an impressive amount of information.

    The first sighting, studied by the Sonderburo, went back two years and came from Hauptmann Fischer, an engineer in civil life. On March 14,1942, at 5:35 p.m., Fischer landed at the secret air base at Banak, in Norway. At that instant the radar picked up a luminous object and Fischer was asked to go up and identify it. At about 10,000 feet the pilot caught sight of the object, and gave a description by radio to the base: an enormous streamlined craft about 300 feet long and about 50 feet in diameter. The "aerial whale" which was Fischer's title for it stayed horizontal for a long moment before rising vertically and disappearing at great speed.

    It was not a machine constructed by the hand of man, Fischer stated in his report. On reading the report, Air Marshall Hermann Goering concluded that the solitude of the north does not seem to have done much for this pilot.

    The report of another interesting incident was carefully preserved in the archives of the German Investigation Committee: that of the launching of an experimental rocket on February 12, 1944, at the Kummersdorf test center.

    On that day the Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, S.S. Reichsfuhrer Himmler and S.S. Gruppenfuhrer Heinz Kammler were present at the launching which was being filmed. Some days later the authorities at the base organized a showing of the film. The astonished spectators, could see very clearly a spherical body which followed the rocket and circled around it.

    The authorities immediately suspected Allied espionage. However, an agent informed Himmler that the English were themselves victims of the same sort of phenomenon and thought that it was a new type of German prototype craft. However, the most convincing evidence filed away by the Sonderburo came from a military flying ace.

    On September 29, 1944, at 10:45 a.m., a test pilot was trying out a new Messerschmitt jet, ME 262 Schwalbe, when his attention was suddenly caught by two luminous points situated on his right. He shot at full speed in that direction and found himself face to face with a cylindrical object, more than three hundred feet long with some openings along its side, and fitted with long antennae placed in front up to about halfway along its length. Having approached within about 1,500 feet of the craft the pilot was amazed to see that it was moving at a speed of more than 1,200 m.p.h.

    See also:
    http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newse/foo/ [Broken]
    http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newse/foo/foo2.html [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  13. Jun 7, 2003 #12

    Ivan Seeking

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    Some Major events of the last 50 years

    RB-47 over the Gulf of Mexico; 1957
    http://www.nicap.org/rb47dir.htm [Broken]

    Father Gill and the night visitors; 1959:
    http://www.nicap.org/en-590626rep.htm [Broken]

    Betty and Barney Hill: 1961
    Note: I normally stay away from "abducties" but this case is considered a classic...(Classic what I'm not sure)
    Considered by many to be the original modern abduction case.
    http://www.nicap.org/hilldir.htm [Broken]

    The Big Sur missile test filming: 1964
    http://www.nicap.org/bigsurdir.htm [Broken]
    Note: I attempted to speak with Mr Mansmann a couple of times. Unfortunately he was too ill to speak and then passed away. I did speak with his wife twice and she was kind enough to have a short discussion with me on both occasions. According to Mrs. Mansmann, Mr. Mansmann maintained the truth of this story until his death last year.

    Shag Harbor; 1967
    [the NICAP link had been redirected]

    Mansfield, Ohio, Coyne Helicopter Incident; 1973
    http://www.nicap.org/coynedir.htm [Broken]

    The FOIA document for this event:

    Bentwaters AFB: 1980
    AKA the RAF Woodbridge, or Rendlesham Forest incident. The two bases are separated by Rendlesham Forest.
    Temp note: The link for the UK's Ministry Of Defense files is now dead. Until updated, the files can be downloaded from this site:
    http://www.ufocasebook.com/pdffiles.html [Broken]
    See also:
    http://www.flyingsaucery.com/Rendlesham/ [Broken]

    JAL Flight 1628 over Alaska: 1986

    Belgium; 1989-1991:

    London: 1999

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  14. Jun 7, 2003 #13

    Ivan Seeking

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  15. Jun 8, 2003 #14

    Ivan Seeking

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    Scientific and Science oriented UFO reference sites

    NICAP - National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomenon.




    Bruce Maccabee's website
    http://brumac.8k.com/ [Broken]

    Society for Scientific Exploration:

    National Institute for Discovery Science
    http://www.nidsci.org/ [Broken]

    UFO Skeptic



    International Committee for UFO Research:

    Coalition for Freedom of Information Website:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  16. Jun 8, 2003 #15

    Ivan Seeking

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    Report Databases and Case Files

    *National UFO Reporting Center*

    http://www.narcap.org/international%20orgs%20case%20files/intlorgscases.htm [Broken]


    UFO Info

    UFO Sweden
    http://www.ufo.se/english.html [Broken]

    UFO India:

    Victorian U.F.O. Research Society Inc.


    The Filer Files:

    UFOs Northwest

    Shadow Research:
    http://www.shadowresearch.com/ufo/ufo_reports.htm [Broken]


    Aerosphere Magazine:
    http://www.aerosphere.com/Magazine/UFO_stories_/ufo_stories_.shtml [Broken]

    Some video and photo databases:
    [Viewer beware! Many photos and videos are obviously hoaxes or nothing of significance]
    *http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=UFO&hl=en [Broken]*
    http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/videoclips/ [Broken]
    http://www.ufocasebook.com/videos2.html [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  17. Jun 16, 2003 #16

    Ivan Seeking

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    http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/ufo_china_000126.html [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  18. Jul 25, 2003 #17

    Ivan Seeking

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    Recent News Items

    'UFO' lights caught on film: 7/23/03, BBC

    I suspect that this is a photo of either ball lightning, or a phenomenon that has an appearance similar to ball lighning that is the cause of many UFO reports.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  19. Aug 19, 2003 #18

    Ivan Seeking

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    A theory of UFOs: by John Walker

    *Nominated to the Napster by selfAdjoint*

    Last edited: Jan 12, 2007
  20. Aug 24, 2003 #19

    Ivan Seeking

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    UFO case blocked by MoD



    Last edited: Aug 25, 2003
  21. Sep 2, 2003 #20

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    Former Air Force Commander Discusses UFOs

  22. Jan 22, 2004 #21


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    Dearly Missed

    Well then, how do you explain your cases?
  23. Jan 22, 2004 #22

    Ivan Seeking

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    I don't. I have a few guesses and I understand why there are so many ET believers, but after nearly 20 years of serious interest I don't know what to think! Most frustrating!!!

    In my own mind I have ruled out any possibility that all events can be explained by hoaxes, misperceptions, lies, exotic but human technology, familiar natural phenomena, and fantasy prone personalities. My best guess is that several explanations are needed including [perhaps]:

    1). The military uses real UFOs as a convenient smokescreen; i.e. they are glad to allow military test craft to be interpreted as alien spacecraft. [edit: then deny the whole things as more UFO nonsense]

    2). One or perhaps several highly exotic but "natural" and unrecognized phenomena exist. The possibility of a plurality of natural explanations is my best hope to kill ET: There must be a plasma phenomenon or something else that produces a lot of EM, and maybe other "things", maybe chemically driven, that produce the appearance of a saucer and many other geometric forms. Also, I see no other way to account for some highly compelling witnesses except to assume that proximity to some of these things will or can cause dramatic hallucinations [e.g. in Persinger's work with EM fields and the brain]. One of my biggest objections to the earthlights explanations is that we can't account for stable, floating, darting and dashing, weapons systems killing, and plane chasing ellipsoids. Many skeptics use this explanation AS IF it settles the mystery. Even if we all agree that earthlights are the source, we still have quite a mystery!

    3). Really out on a limb now...[edit: just some wild speculation here - not to be considered a theory or hypothesis of mine] perhaps we are seeing unknown cosmic phenomena...or even macroscopic quantum phenomena...EDIT: OK I shouldn't have said that...I'll take that back, but some stuff that I have seen on tape is just too weird!!! I have seen some very good videos of some very, very strange things - not really UFOs, and almost certainly not anything familiar.

    4) I can't rule out the exotic explanations e.g. ET, time travelers etc, but I don't accept them either...and there I'm stuck.

    Also, as for the government conspiracy theories: IMO, either we have a 50 year old conspiracy by perhaps thousands of military personnel to perpetuate the UFO myth, including some of our highest ranking officials [some who continue to tell lies even on their death beds], including a couple of personal friends and relatives, or there IS a conspiracy to hide [some] information about UFOs; And/Or the government is just as confused as I am.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2004
  24. Jan 23, 2004 #23

    Ivan Seeking

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    I have talked with a few of the central figures in what I consider to be interesting, alleged UFO events. After a conversation with someone like Col. Halt in the Rendlesham case, for example, I could believe just about anything; I don't, but some of these people are really hard to dismiss.

    Also, many of the biggest proponents of government conspiracy theories are people formerly associated with the intelligence community and or the military. This has always bothered me quite a bit. Of course, it is possible that the government condones this behavior to perpetuate the myth, or maybe these guys have just figured out that UFOs can mean big profit, but this gets into conspiracies to falsify UFO reports and events while on duty at places like nuclear weapons bases. These reports are then used later, say after retirement, which gets a little long the tooth as well. Also, many of these reports were classified and predate the Freedom of Information Act – which is what now makes these reports public information…to the extent that they’re not blacked out.
  25. Apr 20, 2004 #24

    Ivan Seeking

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    SelfAdjoint and I put this thread a little off track. Please keep this thread limited to links and very brief comments. Sorry folks, that was my fault. :smile:
  26. Apr 26, 2004 #25
    So how is this? no UFO, not even a FO.
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