News The Ultimate Loss of Civil Liberties: Innocent Man Shot Dead in UK

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alexandra

Hello all

I've just read today's BBC main news story:
Family condemns police shooting The family of a Brazilian man shot dead by police hunting the men behind London's attempted bomb attacks have told of their anger and disbelief.
Jean Charles de Menezes's grandmother said there "was no reason to think he was a terrorist".

Police expressed "regret" over the killing of the 27-year-old electrician at Stockwell Tube station on Friday, admitting it was a "tragedy".

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711639.stm
This is barbarism.
 
As I posted on another forum...

They claim that deadly force is necessary when dealing with suicide bombers because it is the only way to stop them. After all, they could very well have a detonator in their pocket.

I fully admit that I can see both sides of the story.
Hand1.) Incapacitation (at least instant unconsciousness) is required to stop a suicide bomber. Shoot him in the kneecaps, and he will simply press the trigger and kill everyone in a 30 foot radius.

TheOtherHand.) Unless he says, "I am a suicide bomber and you are all going to die" or something similar, then you have just given an undertsandably nervous police force the power of judge, jury and executioner in the heat of the moment. This case in particular, clearly illustrates the inherent danger in that. "He looks suspicious. Let's kill him!"


Aside from all that, in this case TheOtherHand doesn't even matter or come into play. They had the man pinned down and immobile. He was already unable to move. Deadly force was not justifiable by any strecth of the imagination.
 
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alexandra

one_raven said:
Aside from all that, in this case TheOtherHand doesn't even matter or come into play. They had the man pinned down and immobile. He was already unable to move. Deadly force was not justifiable by any strecth of the imagination.
Yes, precisely - and another factor that needs mentioning is people are going to argue 'But he ran away!'. I've thought about that one: the police weren't wearing uniforms! He probably ran away because he didn't know they were police - I mean, I think (if I didn't 'freeze' with terror), if a group of armed men ran at me, shouting (or whatever), I would probably try to run away too. Whew, this is just so bad...
 

Pengwuino

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one_raven said:
Aside from all that, in this case TheOtherHand doesn't even matter or come into play. They had the man pinned down and immobile. He was already unable to move. Deadly force was not justifiable by any strecth of the imagination.
This is the part that confuses the hell out of me. They pin him down and THEN shoot? The ONLY thing i can think of is if he reached for something that looked like a detonator and they thought he had to be stopped... thats teh ONLY reason i can concieve of. This isnt barbarism and this shouldnt be a call for protests and all this sorts of crap because there is a lot here that still makes no sense and we're all jumping to conclusions that seem way too far fetched to be probable. If this turns out to be as insane as it sounds... then we can all gasp in horror and make threads saying civil liberties are over and other such rhetoric.

And as someone pointed out in another thread, why was he wearing a winter coat in the middle of summer???? And, to add to this, he ran away from people identifying themselves as police (not stated in article, was from a earlier press release, AP i believe) in a place highly likely to be targeted as a terrorist target only days after 2 series of attacks. I want to see what made them fire and why did he run and what was with his clothing...
 
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alexandra

Pengwuino said:
This is the part that confuses the hell out of me. They pin him down and THEN shoot? The ONLY thing i can think of is if he reached for something that looked like a detonator and they thought he had to be stopped... thats teh ONLY reason i can concieve of. This isnt barbarism and this shouldnt be a call for protests and all this sorts of crap because there is a lot here that still makes no sense and we're all jumping to conclusions that seem way too far fetched to be probable. If this turns out to be as insane as it sounds... then we can all gasp in horror and make threads saying civil liberties are over and other such rhetoric.

And as someone pointed out in another thread, why was he wearing a winter coat in the middle of summer????
My source is BBC news. I also heard an official government/police/security representative apologising on the radio. It is officially confirmed by official sources that cannot be questioned that the man shot had nothing to do with terrorism at all.
 

Pengwuino

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alexandra said:
My source is BBC news. I also heard an official government/police/security representative apologising on the radio. It is officially confirmed by official sources that cannot be questioned that the man shot had nothing to do with terrorism at all.
Thats not the question here. Its why he ran and why did he have on such a huge coat. Sure its nice and all to say after the fact that he wasnt a suspect, but it still doesnt account for why he ran and the other odd parts of this case.
 
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alexandra

Pengwuino said:
Thats not the question here. Its why he ran and why did he have on such a huge coat. Sure its nice and all to say after the fact that he wasnt a suspect, but it still doesnt account for why he ran and the other odd parts of this case.
He ran because the police were not wearing uniforms; as far as he was concerned, they were a bunch of armed men threatening him with guns. What would YOU do if a bunch of armed men threatened you with a gun?
 

Pengwuino

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Other sources say they announced they were police, ill have to verify that point.

Ewww ok that is true and furthermore...

According to witnesses, Jean Charles de Menezes was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him in an underground car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso.
Well, turns out that was because the officer had an automatic pistol... never knew anyone carried those kinds of pistols.
 
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Pengwuino

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They have cameras everywhere... i wonder if they got this on camera. And wait, what does this have to do with civil liberties?
 
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alexandra

Pengwuino said:
Other sources say they announced they were police, ill have to verify that point.
Pengwuino, just imagine that this was either you or one of your friends; how would you feel about it then? If you can honestly say, "It would be ok if I/my friend were accidentally shot because I would deserve it: I wore a coat/ran away from some men chasing me with guns", then... well, I guess... I'm speechless. If some innocent person I know (or even the innocent person I don't know) gets shot by plain clothes police, I can't in good conscience say, "That's ok", not under any circumstances. I guess I have a really weird view of justice, huh?

Anyway, here's some more information. An eye-witness account:
I saw Tube man shot - eyewitness

A passenger has told how he saw armed police officers shoot a man dead on a Tube train at Stockwell.
Mark Whitby said: "I was sitting on the train... I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'.

"I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun.

"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24.

"As [the suspect] got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, [they] couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.

"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.
This is from the BBC website again, and there's more (also about the coat): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm

I've also tried to establish whether or not the plain clothes police alerted him to who they were, but the only information I could find was ambiguous - it suggests that he wasn't warned, but doesn't really say one way or the other (I've bolded the most relevant bit for easy identification):
Concern has also been expressed by the present commissioner and his immediate predecessor that the legal position regarding use of police firearms needs to be urgently reviewed in the light of the suicide threat.

The police deployment of firearms is governed by a manual published by the Association of Police Officers, last revised in February 2005.

It is not true to say that police officers must identify themselves or shout a warning when confronting a suspect believed to pose a grave and imminent threat.

The manual says that that procedure "should be considered" but recognises that the key aim of an operation is to "identify, locate, contain and neutralise" the threat posed.

Reference: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4708373.stm
 
Pengwuino said:
They have cameras everywhere... i wonder if they got this on camera. And wait, what does this have to do with civil liberties?
I should have the right to wear a "thick padded coat" and enter a subway that is open for public access without being shot by the police.

I'm sure people will try and obfuscate the issue by bringing up the coat and by asking why he ran, but that is not the issue at hand.

It doesn't matter in the least why he was wearing a thick coat.
Is it illegal to wear a coat whenit is warm outside?
Is it a threat to National Security?

He could have run for any number of reasons.
Maybe he didn't hear that they were police- maybe he was wearing a walkman, maybe he doesn't (or didn't) speak English well, maybe he simply panicked.
To be honest, I don't know what I would do if I was in the subway, sortly after it got bombed and a band of plainclothed men were running after me with weapons drawn shouting at me. I just may run.

He is an electrician, maybe he was working in a cold computer room.

Maybe he stole the coat, and was afraid to get arrested.
Perhaps the police were FULLY justified in wrestling him to the ground.
It really does not matter.

All that matters is:
Was he subdued and immobile before the cop shot him five times and killed him?
 
A

alexandra

Pengwuino said:
They have cameras everywhere... i wonder if they got this on camera. And wait, what does this have to do with civil liberties?
Pengwuino, all I can think of is that you didn't really think before posting your question. In any case, this is what this has to do with civil liberties: surely as civilians we have the right to life? Is the right to life itself not the most basic of all civil liberties? Maybe I'm just going crazy here, being idealistic or something... I don't know. Perhaps a neocon can set me right. No rights to life any more in this brave new world of ours? Not even if you did nothing at all wrong, nothing to threaten anyone, or even anyone's profit?
 
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and who said British are coolheaded/composed in difficult times ?
 
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alexandra

Pengwuino said:
Other sources say they announced they were police, ill have to verify that point.

Ewww ok that is true and furthermore...
Pengwuino, I've searched for anywhere where it states that the police announced who they were but can't find it. Please provide me with your link.

Nevertheless, even if they did announce who they were, as one_raven points out he may not have heard them. I can easily imagine myself not hearing what a bunch of threatening-looking people running at me are saying/shouting - I'd be panicking far too much to be able to hear anything, I think.
 

Pengwuino

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alexandra said:
Pengwuino, all I can think of is that you didn't really think before posting your question. In any case, this is what this has to do with civil liberties: surely as civilians we have the right to life? Is the right to life itself not the most basic of all civil liberties? Maybe I'm just going crazy here, being idealistic or something... I don't know. Perhaps a neocon can set me right. No rights to life any more in this brave new world of ours? Not even if you did nothing at all wrong, nothing to threaten anyone, or even anyone's profit?
Well you have obviously shown you dont think before you post. The guy has a big coat and starts running when the poliec confront him days after a series of terrorist attacks in the same type of location he is at and some of them were suicided bombers. Then of course, he had just walked out of a house that was under surveillance. If none of those actions raise any red flags in your mind then i surely do hope your not incharge of any sort of security.

What exactly would you have done in the situation? Let him board the train? Just let him go and hope you are right? Travel into the future to find out he wasnt connected and then come back to make the decision?
 

Pengwuino

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alexandra said:
Nevertheless, even if they did announce who they were, as one_raven points out he may not have heard them. I can easily imagine myself not hearing what a bunch of threatening-looking people running at me are saying/shouting - I'd be panicking far too much to be able to hear anything, I think.
There have been countless incidents where innocent people have been approached by police with guns drawn and they didnt run away out of some insane fear. Stop assuming about what happened.

I'll try to find out where this guy got hte info as to whether or not the police announced who they were
 
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alexandra

Pengwuino said:
There have been countless incidents where innocent people have been approached by police with guns drawn and they didnt run away out of some insane fear. Stop assuming about what happened.

I'll try to find out where this guy got hte info as to whether or not the police announced who they were
I am not assuming. Everything I've posted is backed up with evidence. I did not post anything at all about this incident when it first happened (the day it was reported that the young man was shot) because there was nothing to post then. Now there is something important to discuss, because it has implications for all of us. One day you could be going about your ordinary business in the UK and suddenly get chased and shot (in a matter of seconds, before you've even realised what's happening). I find this very worrying and totally unacceptable on any grounds, and I would like to find out what other people think about this. I now know your own opinion about it, but perhaps others agree with me that this is bad news.
 

Pengwuino

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one_raven said:
I should have the right to wear a "thick padded coat" and enter a subway that is open for public access without being shot by the police.
Thats like saying i have the right to confront police officers with a mock-mp5 bb gun and not to be shot at.

one_raven said:
I'm sure people will try and obfuscate the issue by bringing up the coat and by asking why he ran, but that is not the issue at hand.

It doesn't matter in the least why he was wearing a thick coat.
Is it illegal to wear a coat whenit is warm outside?
Is it a threat to National Security?
No it does matter, your just trying to say anyone who doesnt agree with you is wrong and showing how you will refuse any evidence contrary to your view in life.

one_raven said:
He could have run for any number of reasons.
Maybe he didn't hear that they were police- maybe he was wearing a walkman, maybe he doesn't (or didn't) speak English well, maybe he simply panicked.
To be honest, I don't know what I would do if I was in the subway, sortly after it got bombed and a band of plainclothed men were running after me with weapons drawn shouting at me. I just may run.
Wearing a walkman and just spontaneously decided to run? And yes, he does speak english according to most sources. If he paniced, oh well, as they say "stuff happens". He picked the wrong place to panic. This shouldnt be means for calling the police trigger happy barbarians. Its like a jet/prop plane flying near restricted DC air space and then saying "Oh well, he saw the fighters, he must have paniced and turned right towards the white house... fighters shot him down, the fighters are monsters, i guess we dont have the right to fly anymore"

one_raven said:
He is an electrician, maybe he was working in a cold computer room.
He had just left a house under surveillance and was being followed by British police i believe.

one_raven said:
All that matters is:
Was he subdued and immobile before the cop shot him five times and killed him?
No thats not all that matters. Your trying to narrow down the situation into a black and white situation where you can blame the police without bringing in every implication related to the case. He just made some really bad mistakes that werent really his fault and the circumstances combined to get him killed. Unfortunate accident? Yes. Barbarism? No.
 
Pengwuino said:
What exactly would you have done in the situation? Let him board the train? Just let him go and hope you are right? Travel into the future to find out he wasnt connected and then come back to make the decision?
It's not about what I or any other private citizen, would have done- it's about what the police SHOULD have done.
If, as the eyewitness accounts state the police were on top of him, they should have grabbed his arms, pulled them behind his back and kept him immobilized until the situation was under control.
If the do not have that level of cool-headedness that does not necessarily make them "evil" it does, however, make them unsuitable for the job they have and should be discharged.
IF, as I said, the eyewitness accounts were correct, which we have no reason to doubt at the moment.

Pengwuino said:
I'll try to find out where this guy got hte info as to whether or not the police announced who they were
Again, it doesn't really matter if they announced themselves.
He MAY not have heard it.
Even if he did, resisting arrest is NOT a capital offense.
If he was breaking the law in some way (maybe he had an outstanding bench warrant) he would have run. That is NOT justification for shooting him on the spot.

in the same type of location
Are you ****ting me?
Simply being in a subway is justification for being killed?
Thousands upon thousands of other people were on the subways that day, I am sure. They were open to the public.
 

Pengwuino

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alexandra said:
I am not assuming. Everything I've posted is backed up with evidence. I did not post anything at all about this incident when it first happened (the day it was reported that the young man was shot) because there was nothing to post then. Now there is something important to discuss, because it has implications for all of us. One day you could be going about your ordinary business in the UK and suddenly get chased and shot (in a matter of seconds, before you've even realised what's happening). I find this very worrying and totally unacceptable on any grounds, and I would like to find out what other people think about this. I now know your own opinion about it, but perhaps others agree with me that this is bad news.
You assumed he didnt heard. Anyhow, you are being horribly unrealistic and ignorant to think that its unacceptable that one day, you may not just be shot runnen down a subway. I may be screwing around and filming amovie where i have a fake gun up to a fellow actors head and a police officer might come by, see me, and open fire. Tragic accident? Yes. Unacceptable? No. You see, i understand that everyoen is not perfect nor omnipotent and when it is perceived that one more multiple peoples lives may be in danger, i can truely understand when certain actions may be taken.

And isnt it always possible that the police paniced? Is it not right to give the police the same leeway when it comes to panicing as you give the man who was killed?
 

Pengwuino

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one_raven said:
It's not about what I or any other private citizen, would have done- it's about what the police SHOULD have done.
If, as the eyewitness accounts state the police were on top of him, they should have grabbed his arms, pulled them behind his back and kept him immobilized until the situation was under control.
If the do not have that level of cool-headedness that does not necessarily make them "evil" it does, however, make them unsuitable for the job they have and should be discharged.
IF, as I said, the eyewitness accounts were correct, which we have no reason to doubt at the moment.
Well according to eye witnesses, it doesnt make sense. To us, it doesnt make sense. SOMETHING must have happened to make them fire. Do the witnesses say they knew exactly what happened? No. Were there a lot of panic stricken people? Yes. Shoudl we jump to conclusions? No.


one_raven said:
Again, it doesn't really matter if they announced themselves.
He MAY not have heard it.
Even if he did, resisting arrest is NOT a capital offense.
If he was breaking the law in some way (maybe he had an outstanding bench warrant) he would have run. That is NOT justification for shooting him on the spot.
Your isolating the incident, which shows that you are not arguing this correctly. You must take into account that 10 or so bombs were detonated in the last few days. If you dont, your simply biased and unwilling to see the situation for what it truely as.

one_raven said:
in the same type of location
Are you ****ting me?
Simply being in a subway is justification for being killed?
Thousands upon thousands of other people were on the subways that day, I am sure. They were open to the public.
Isolating the incident again. Refer to how i explain why isolating is simply a means to prove your argument right instead of looking at the actual situation.
 
If terrorism really has to be wiped out, such kind of casualties are inevitable.
 
Pengwuino said:
Thats like saying i have the right to confront police officers with a mock-mp5 bb gun and not to be shot at.
It is absolutly NOTHING AT ALL like saying that by any stretch of the imagination.
Confronting a police officer with a mock-up gun would possible be comparable to wearing a fake bomb and holding a rigger in your hand, but is is not even comparable to wearing a garment that is heavier that you would expect on a warm day!


Pengwuino said:
No it does matter, your just trying to say anyone who doesnt agree with you is wrong and showing how you will refuse any evidence contrary to your view in life.
Please don't assume to know what my thoughts and motivations are.
You can't read my mind, and you couldn't be further from the truth.
Refrain from personal attacks and stick to the discussion please, or don't waste my time.


Pengwuino said:
Wearing a walkman and just spontaneously decided to run? And yes, he does speak english according to most sources. If he paniced, oh well, as they say "stuff happens". He picked the wrong place to panic. This shouldnt be means for calling the police trigger happy barbarians.
I didn't call them "trigger happy barbarians" and wouldn't.


Pengwuino said:
Its like a jet/prop plane flying near restricted DC air space and then saying "Oh well, he saw the fighters, he must have paniced and turned right towards the white house... fighters shot him down, the fighters are monsters, i guess we dont have the right to fly anymore"
It is nothing at all like that because you are not supposed to fly there.
There was NO restriction against using that subway.


Pengwuino said:
He had just left a house under surveillance and was being followed by British police i believe.
Which is why I said they were fully justified in wrestling him to the ground and detaining him.
He wasn't suspected of anything specific at all.
Simply coming from that house (many electricians spend a great deal of their time in stranger's houses) was his only transgression.
While that is plenty reason to suspect and even detain and question him, it is NOT reason to "shoot to kill".

Pengwuino said:
No thats not all that matters. Your trying to narrow down the situation into a black and white situation where you can blame the police without bringing in every implication related to the case. He just made some really bad mistakes that werent really his fault and the circumstances combined to get him killed. Unfortunate accident? Yes. Barbarism? No.
Again, I didn;t call it barbarism, and please do not presume to know my intentions or character- you don't know me.
 
Pengwuino said:
I may be screwing around and filming amovie where i have a fake gun up to a fellow actors head and a police officer might come by, see me, and open fire.
Do you know why you never hear about this happening?
Because police do not generally shoot to kill based on nothing more than geralized suspicion.

Again, I did not say the police were evil or terrible or any such thing.
I DO think, however, this is an unacceptable error in judgement.
If action is not taken (no, not jail time or any such thing, but perhaps taking these officers off the terrorism squad and not placing them in such situations) then it is complicit accpetance of the policy and thus deemed as acceptable behavior to shoot on suspicion.
Due process goes out the window.
 
R

rachmaninoff

Penguino said:
Your isolating the incident, which shows that you are not arguing this correctly. You must take into account that 10 or so bombs were detonated in the last few days. If you dont, your simply biased and unwilling to see the situation for what it truely as.
Penguino:

So you're saying police should behave differently and more suspiciously in the days following a terror attack? As if the possibility of any one person being a terrorist is significantly different?

I agree with you that this might have been an accident caused by people on both sides panicking, the kind that could not have been avoided. But I don't buy that "the situation", the days following a terror attack, warrants different police behavior than other days. The probability that an arbitrary person in a subway is a terrorist is no different from day to day (unless you have prior knowledge of a planned attack, in which case it goes up from 1 in 10^6 to maybe 2 or 3 in 10^6). If the police want to change their policies to prevent terrorism, then they should change policies over a long-term period of time, with the goal of actually preventing something. Short-term reactions are not due to rational policy, but irrational fear; people get into a "panicky" state of mind that does not make the public safer. In fact, it actively endangers the public, as we've tragically witnessed.
 

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