Theocratic Iraq

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I previously have supported Bush on the Iraq War.

But if this happens
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007112

and Iraq becomes a theocracy as it seems likely, I think I will have to join the anti-war camp. This would mean that we didn't fight for principles of any kind in Iraq but for a theocracy which is nearly as bad as Saddam's Iraq.

Your thoughts?
 

Answers and Replies

BobG
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Whether right-wing or left-wing, neocon or socialist, the worst politics you can engage in is doing something very badly. At least until very recently.

Somehow, Americans either came to the conclusion that it was impossible to do anything badly or that performance just didn't matter. The only thing that seems to matter is whether it's a Republican or a Democrat that's doing it.
 
arildno
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Actually, I will start supporting the US involvement, if the US government has the balls to stamp out this troubling development.
What will Iraq else be in 5 years, if theocracy is introduced? A new Taliban state, like Afghanistan??
We know what sort of fellows that state used to shelter.
 
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I think it's painfully obvious that we never fought for principles in Iraq from the beginning.
 
arildno
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BobG said:
Whether right-wing or left-wing, neocon or socialist, the worst politics you can engage in is doing something very badly. At least until very recently.

Somehow, Americans either came to the conclusion that it was impossible to do anything badly or that performance just didn't matter. The only thing that seems to matter is whether it's a Republican or a Democrat that's doing it.
So very true!
 
o:) saddam's iraq was cool. :devil:
gurkha-war-horse
 
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gurkhawarhorse said:
o:) saddam's iraq was cool. :devil:
gurkha-war-horse
I trust that was some sort of sarcasm
 
I cannot take this anymore
I'm saying everything I've said before
All these words they make no sense :confused:
I find bliss in ignorance
Less I hear the less you'll say
But you'll find that out anyway
Just like before...

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break :cry:
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break

I find the answers aren't so clear :confused:
Wish I could find a way to disappear :bugeye:
All these thoughts they make no sense :uhh:
I find bliss in ignorance
Nothing seems to go away
Over and over again
Just like before...

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe :yuck:
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Break break break break break

shut up when I'm talking to you :devil:
shut up shut up shut up :devil:
shut up when I'm talking to you :devil:
shut up shut up shut up shut up :devil:
I’m about to break :cry:

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Break break break break break break

shut up when I'm talking to you :devil:
shut up shut up shut up :devil:
shut up when I'm talking to you :devil:
shut up shut up shut up shut up :devil:
I’m about to break :cry:

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe :yuck:
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break :cry:




linlin park
now wat u call this...?

gurkha-war-horse
 
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My thoughts? :surprised I never saw it coming! :rolleyes:
 
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sid_galt said:
we didn't fight for principles of any kind in Iraq but
Who would've guessed!? :rofl:
 
SOS2008
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arildno said:
Actually, I will start supporting the US involvement, if the US government has the balls to stamp out this troubling development.
What will Iraq else be in 5 years, if theocracy is introduced? A new Taliban state, like Afghanistan??
We know what sort of fellows that state used to shelter.
Speaking of which the U.S. hasn't had much success in Afghanistan either. However, I wouldn't quite jump to the same conclusion about theocracy. In that there have been other countries where religion plays a large role in government, but I don't necessarily conclude it will result in terrorism. Personally I prefer the two to be very separate, more because of women's rights etc. In the end, a countries sovereignty is it's own, and if this is what they choose with their new freedom, is it not their choice?
 
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arildno
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They?
Who they?
 
SOS2008
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arildno said:
They?
Who they?
Iraq as a country. How do you think things would evolve in Iraq if they had overthrown Saddam on their own? The U.S. went it's course, and we still have problems with unity, the rights of minorities, and so forth. So they will join the ranks of the many other countries who struggle to remain united, peaceful, economically viable, etc. Now the U.S. should work toward an international peace keeping effort (assuming other countries are willing to help now).
 
SOS2008 said:
Speaking of which the U.S. hasn't had much success in Afghanistan either. However, I wouldn't quite jump to the same conclusion about theocracy. There have been other countries where religion plays a large role in government, however I don't necessarily conclude it will result in terrorism. Personally I prefer the two to be very separate, more because of women's rights etc. In the end, a countries sovereignty is it's own, and if this is what they choose with their new freedom, is it not their choice?
I always find it strange when Americans are reluctant to support a 'theocracy' when they took such a big role in the creation of Israel.

It seems such a 180 on their part.

Are they saying that Israel was a wrong idea too or just Moslem Theocracies?
 
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The Smoking Man said:
I always find it strange when Americans are reluctant to support a 'theocracy' when they took such a big role in the creation of Israel.

It seems such a 180 on their part.

Are they saying that Israel was a wrong idea too or just Moslem Theocracies?
I also think that it's strange that America wants to spread a democracy by force until it becomes clear that the people in said democracy don't want what the Americans want.
 
SOS2008
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The Smoking Man said:
I always find it strange when Americans are reluctant to support a 'theocracy' when they took such a big role in the creation of Israel.

It seems such a 180 on their part.

Are they saying that Israel was a wrong idea too or just Moslem Theocracies?
Or more to the point, the support of a theocracy here in the good old United States? A legitimate question to ask is will they be anti-American?
 
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Somehow, Americans either came to the conclusion that it was impossible to do anything badly or that performance just didn't matter. The only thing that seems to matter is whether it's a Republican or a Democrat that's doing it.
Thats good! I'm writing it down. :biggrin:
 
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One thing you should take into account sid, which you may or may not have, is that just because it's constitution involves a lot about Islam does not mean it will be undemocratic. You saw the number of people who showed up to the polls, they've got more support for democracy than the US does. The only thing that would be seriously changed is the lack of separation of church and state which is very much a western value from the renaissance period which we don't have the right to force onto iraq if they don't want that.

Besides, Saddam was secular. Obviously secularism isn't the most important part so at least they're democratic - and that's something.
 
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Smurf said:
One thing you should take into account sid, which you may or may not have, is that just because it's constitution involves a lot about Islam does not mean it will be undemocratic. You saw the number of people who showed up to the polls, they've got more support for democracy than the US does. The only thing that would be seriously changed is the lack of separation of church and state which is very much a western value from the renaissance period which we don't have the right to force onto iraq if they don't want that.

Besides, Saddam was secular. Obviously secularism isn't the most important part so at least they're democratic - and that's something.
I agree. If it's what they want then let them have it. I'm still concerned though over the possible loss of womens rights. As far as I have read though there is still quite a bit of opposition to the constitutional model that would take them away.
 
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Smurf said:
One thing you should take into account sid, which you may or may not have, is that just because it's constitution involves a lot about Islam does not mean it will be undemocratic.
Democracy is not an ivory tower ideal. Pure democracy is nothing but tyranny of the majority. That is why Constitutions are written. To put prevent violation of rights of the individual by the government whether the majority or a group of elites want to violate the rights of the minority.
 
SOS2008 said:
In the end, a countries sovereignty is it's own...
... until the US chooses to remove it from them.
SOS2008 said:
f this is what they choose with their new freedom, is it not their choice?

Who are 'they'? The Iraqi people? I assume that includes those loyal to Saddam. They didn't have much of a choice. Iraqi women? I doubt they are using their new freedom to relieve themselves of their new freedom.

I hardly see this as any justification whatsoever under the circumstances.

Now the last of The Big Three has fallen ('danger to American security' - strike, 'has illegal weapons of mass destruction' - strike, 'liberation of and peace for the Iraqi people'...). Who has benefited now?
 
arildno
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are "they" Sunni's or Shi'ites?
 
Skyhunter
sid_galt said:
I previously have supported Bush on the Iraq War.

But if this happens
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007112

and Iraq becomes a theocracy as it seems likely, I think I will have to join the anti-war camp. This would mean that we didn't fight for principles of any kind in Iraq but for a theocracy which is nearly as bad as Saddam's Iraq.

Your thoughts?
I didn't even need glasses to see this one coming.

Saddams Iraq was not as bad as we have been led to believe. He was a ruthless dictator, but the reason he stayed in power was because he was also an effective leader. Iraq before desert storm was a modern, progressive, secular nation. And please, don't call me a Saddam supporter, I am just stating the obvious here.
 
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sid_galt said:
Democracy is not an ivory tower ideal. Pure democracy is nothing but tyranny of the majority. That is why Constitutions are written. To put prevent violation of rights of the individual by the government whether the majority or a group of elites want to violate the rights of the minority.
I'm confused. You want the country to guarantee human and civil rights, but you support the ousting a dictator that was pushing Iraq towards that goal. You support that because it wasn't a democracy, but now that there is a democracy you don't support it because they're not guaranteeing all the human and civil rights that you thought they would.

What did you expect? A mini-USA would just pop up?
 
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Smurf said:
You support that because it wasn't a democracy, but now that there is a democracy you don't support it because they're not guaranteeing all the human and civil rights that you thought they would.
I don't support democracies like Iraq where vote is used to determine the law or where vote is used to elect people who can write anything into the Constitution.

Smurf said:
What did you expect? A mini-USA would just pop up?
No it wouldn't have just popped up. Bush should have from day 1 said that he wouldn't allow an elements of opression again into the system no matter in what form they come whether theocracy, democracy, etc.
 

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