There is no we

  • #1
Manuel_Silvio
121
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There is no "we"

I'm not from the US and am really not sure how US citizens are treated in their own country or how they live their lives. However, one thing is clear. There is no "we" in any society.

Some in PF-PaWF tend to use "we" too much. These US citizens say "we should control Iraq" or "we shouldn't have started the war", I don't care. However, I have to remind them there is no "we." The US citizens aren't a coherent body of equal individuals. They're no exception to the Iron Rule of Oligarchy.

Whenever a society grows big enough (more than 50 inhabitants actually) it will need some sort of central administration which will after later growth turn into hierarchical central administration. The very existence of central administration is equal to giving power to a small group. No matter whether they've been chosen or have got there by force, they won't like to be taken away from their newly found power. They'll build their ways to maintain it.

That's what makes the "elite." They have the power and they won't give up until the next group of elite sweeps them out. Under the rule of the elite a society may progress or retrograde. It may flourish or diminish but it will surely not be "we."

Those who use "we" too much, beware! This isn't "your" power, this isn't "your" country and these aren't "your" decisions but it will be "you" who will be held responsible for them.

In the presence of abundance and growth the elite will feed their sheep quite well. For giving the sheep a 90 percent share of the profit will leave the elite with a fairly large 10 percent.

The US has never experienced real problems like those of third world countries. A test of such situation will show the loyalty and honesty of US elite. I'm almost sure they won't pass that test just like third world and minor leaders failed. They want their share and 10 percent won't suffice so they'll rob the nation off its true rights.

I don't wish such situation for the US because they're the beating heart of this world, for now at least. I wish, however, that US citizens will become aware of their great effect on the future of our species and their great luck for being born there and that they don't waste it for the chance won't come again. I also wish they give up this useless pride and hypocrisy that will bring every nation to its knees if practiced for too long a period of time.
 
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Answers and Replies

  • #2
when i say "we shouldn't have started the war" i am referring to my #*@$ing tax dollars that fund the twisted schemes.
 
  • #3
To me, it looks like we are doing just fine. :smile:
 
  • #4
Some in PF-PaWF tend to use "we" too much.
It's a world-wide problem if you ask me.



To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
-Thomas Jefferson
 
  • #5
russ_watters
Mentor
21,942
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Manual, that is just a clear lack of understanding of the concept of a democracy. American or otherwise, it doesn't work that way. Power is derived from the people. I recommend reading some Locke and Hobbes.

The US has never experienced real problems like those of third world countries.
And clearly this shows why the rest of your thesis is wrong. Our Constitution is what makes that possible.
 
  • #6
FZ+
1,599
3
Where in the constitution is it illegal to economically exploit your fellow man? I'd say it was encouraged for most of american history.
 
  • #7
well FZ+, i got that out of this part:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

best i can tell that says that you can do whatever the hell you want as long as you do not go taking someone else life, restricting their liberty or infringing on their pursuit of happiness. however, even though it says that right there on top of everything; looking at all the laws we have it is reasonable to assume that the majority of our government could care less about the constitution.
 
  • #8
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
1. For BoulderHead:

You know you always have my respect and admiration.

2. For russ_waters:

I haven't read John Locke and Thomas Hobbes (just out of curiosity, wasn't Hobbes a firm defender of Monarchy? seems you like it ) by themselves but I've read about them. I think you missed John Stewart Mill and his explanation of the dictatorship of majority. That sort of dictatorship happens when "we" is used too much. It rises when some think they're the whole. That they're "we." Interstingly enough, this happens when they couldn't have done anything else if they decided to oppose the majority's stupid conclusions. And then they start a free-ride as one head to the thousand-headed monster named the society.

Then, I suggest you read Anthony Giddens' "Sociology" for it will, at least, give you a minimal understanding of how complicated the human world can be.

And get a good understanding of the Iron Rule of Oligarchy. Democracy is a dream, a beautiful dream one may presume but it isn't feasible. Democracy won't forbid inter-authority networking, proprietary golf clubs for industry owners, family meetings for the judiciary and the government, the dark program in education system, stupidity of the majority and those who are born privileged.

The only true representative of the individual is the same invidividual and no one else. That way one will be held responsible for one and see the outcome for one. The decision of the majority can be considered stupid by default for the majority is where the Press and the money rule. I don't think the Press and the money will be good instructors. And stupid decisions made by the majority may for sometime be stood up to until they learn enough not to decide by mistake. Unfortunately enough, the time is too short and too many mistakes have been made already.

This is a dilemma: without central administration societies can't have more than 50 or so inhabitants thus losing all the benefits of being in numbers, with central administration corruption and Oligarchy is inevitable.

3. For Alias:
To me, it looks like we are doing just fine.
I'm afraind you're wrong.

The US is the biggest polluter of the environment.

The US is the biggest producer of weapons.

The US is the biggest consumer of energy, to no use.

The US, with all its resourcefulness, is wasting the chance to colonize space that is our only way to long-term survival.

The US, with all its love for Democracy, has been the only supporter of several dictators all over the world, Augusto Pinochet for example. For a close-up, read Isabel Allende's "La Casa de los Espiritus" (The House of The Spirits).

The US, with all its love for peace, has initiated many wars after WW II, Iraq-Iran war for example.

The US, with all its love for human rights, has to all extents (even militant action, aside from conspiracy) supported several multinational companies to suck up poor people's blood to make money for the US. For a detailed look of the leech, read Miguel Angel Astorias' "El Papa Verde" (The Green Pope) only once. It is well worth it, Astorias won the 1967 Noble prize in literature for his "El Señor Presidente" (Mr. President).

I don't care if I die of the pollution you, yes you Alias, may have made without a reason (just used a few liters more gas for a vacation). I don't care if I'm killed by a new weapon that you, yes you Alias, have paid tax for its invention. I don't care if I die of cold because you, yes you Alias, have used too much energy for warming up a party. I don't care not because I'm not fond of me but because I know my being here is limited, sooner or later I'll die and disappear in the biosphere.

I don't care if I or a billion other individuals die but I do care if the species is going to disappear. Do you think it's Sci-Fi? You're dreaming of safety then. This world is close to a verge. Someday in near future all human beings will see the outcome of 200 years of ignorant behavior, when homo sapiens will become extinct.

I guess a few will live on for they've built shelters for their entire life but you, yes you Alias, won't live on if you aren't one of the rich who've predicted the outcome of ignorance.
 
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  • #9
Manuel,
Thank you for the kind words. For those who may have missed John Stewart Mill and his explanation of the dictatorship of majority here is a taste;


"…in political speculations "the tyranny of the majority" is now generally included among the evils against which society requires to be on its guard. Society...practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression,...penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough; there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them…" - John Stuart Mill
 
  • #10
I will agree that word "we" is used too much. Any generalization can be used too much, and "we" (in this threads sense" is a generalization. But, come on now, often times there is a "we".
 
  • #11
ya i suppose, maybe we should put a stop to it.
 
  • #12
Well that's all very nice.

And now everyone shut up for a minute and let's let Mr. Silvio offer some solutions.

You do have some solutions in mind don't you Mr. Silvio?
 
  • #13
All right already! I won't use "we" again. Us citizens of the USA are really lucky. Us love our country.

Regards
 
  • #14
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
1. For BoulderHead:

Thank you for the quote.

2. For RageSk8:

Well, using "we" to reference a coherent group or just as a helper in expressing one's opinion is all good. The problem rises when it is used to imitate coherence or for a part of a discussion to hide her/his fallacies behind the society colossus.

3. For kyleb:

You've got a good sense of humor. I like your stance because of those PF posts of you I've read.

4. For Alias:

With asking for solutions you've accepted there's a problem, I presume. For a long time, I thought Democracy accompanied with Freedom of Speech and mild socialistic concerns will be the best way to govern a society. I came to know that every known implementation of Democracy suffers similar problems.

The core to these problems is the human nature. Human nature can't be regulated. Wanting more is one of the most powerful drives in every individual. There's no limit to what one may want. Democracy and other systems of governance are meant to harmonize the struggle for more in order to provide the best for the most. All systems of governance are based on some sort of Utilitarianism, except for that the utility is different in them. A democratic republic sees this-worldly welfare as the utility while an Islamic republic sees other-worldly welfare (eg, some paradise or utopia) as the utility.

Since every system of governance must be implemented through a group of human beings, that certain group will always be privileged and since no one wants to lose privileges the privileged group will someway stabilize their superior position.

Democracy is no exception. It will surely cause an "elite" group to rise over the nation. Even worse, the elite won't be those who've, at least, fought hardest and are the best for that position. The elite will be those who can best satisfy the public. Assuming the presence of an open capitalist economy, there will surely be huge concentrations of wealth in the hands of a minority who will surely be able to satisfy the public not by proving their merit but by mass media.

Other systems of governace are similarly doomed to this situation. Each in its very own way.

A good simulation of this problem happens on the Internet. All hosts attached to the Internet struggle for more bandwidth. When the designers thought of this problem they first concluded that a set of externally-supported don't-be-such-a-pig rules will do the job. Later they found out this approach won't do. As a result, all new protocols were strengthened with don't-be-such-a-pig rules built "into" every host and forced by all routers so the host couldn't break the rule. In an analogy, the only efficient (yet not true) solution is a built-in lock against the desire for more inside every individual to prevent her/him from a fight for more when the fight damages the society. Fortunately, or unfortunately, this built-in lock is not there by default and no one will ever risk implanting such a thing.

The one and only backdoor out of the dilemma I presented is individual awareness. Individuals should be aware of the situation and make sure that the elite experience enough dynamism to ensure continual progress in the body of the elite. An elite group who've reigned for a long time without change will cause the corruption of a whole society.

A true solution to this dilemma can be proven to be non-existent but with enough care there are hopes that a society passes the critical limit with safety. The critical limit is passed when the society is no more threatened by the scarceness of resources and/or usual mistakes of the sheep and the elite.

In the US situation is even more crucial for the US is the beating heart of this world, as I said before. The US is a relative maximum to human civilization and if its citizens don't care, the fall will come after the local climax has been reached. The fall won't be limited to one country/nation anymore. The new world is unimaginably interconnected and complex. The fall of the US will mean the fall of human species. No one can escape the unpleasant consequence. Absolutely no one.

Even now, too many mistakes have been made all around the world. The world may never be able to recover from the results but minimization is possible. If US citizens get the right understanding of their important status quo they'll hopefully be able to guarantee the survival of the species. Otherwise, all hopes are gone.

During the 20th century, the US has had a good blend of governmental and economical consideration whose outcome the US citizens are enjoying right now but the world has changed since then. The abundance, the vast expanse of the world to be conquered is no more there. A new policy that transcends all former ones is needed.

There's no problem with US doing whatever it pleases (bash 'em, smash 'em, cash 'em, trash 'em) but their current pleasure is decreasing the already small chance of survival. They'd better learn better ways of enjoyment and put down that hypocrisy and pride that makes them believe they're doing the right thing. For the sake of their own survival, at least.

Saying "we" is disadvantageous in this context for it gives the individual an impression that it is she/he who decides. This is lethal simply because it isn't she/he who makes the decision but it is she/he who will suffer/enjoy the consequence. The heart of individual awareness is that every individual knows her/his position and effect. Saying "we" is an indication of a false impression of one's position and effect.

5. For GENIERE:

If you meant that seriously, you're right. If not, I have to repeat that you're really lucky if you're a US citizen. You're enjoying a position unique in all human history and over the entire geographical expanse of Earth. You can live a life that the majority of the human inhabitants of this planet can't even dream of. The richness of life in the US is the most precious gift disclosed to those who live there.
 
  • #15
Njorl
Science Advisor
285
17
The tyranny of the majority is not unaddressed in the US Constitution. It was debated very hotly in the Anti-Federalist and Federalist Papers. The result was the Bill of Rights, protecting the voices of dissent, religious minorities, accused criminals and other unpopular people. Recognizing that this would not likely be adequate, provision was made to amend the Constitution to allow future rights to be added.

The forces of oligarchy are weakening generally over time, though not monotonicly.

Political cronyism is less effective now than in the past. The electorate has been broadened, senators are no longer appointed, presidential candidates are chosen in a flawed but democratic primary system. While resorting more and more to the will of the people can actually yield worse leaders in some respects, it does subject the process to a populace that is becoming more aware over time. While pandering to the wealthy is helpful, pandering to the masses is more helpful.

Economic oligarchs are also weaker. Economic oligarchs in the past used small investors to leverage their own power. The small investor supplied wealth, but had no voice in affairs. Now, smaller investors comprise the majority of total invested wealth in the US, and they are organizing. Representitives of the organizations that represent collectives of small investors were insturmental in the removal of the chairman of the SEC over the objections of the president and most corporate chairmen. "We" are not where we should be, but we're geting there. Bill Gates has nowhere near the power execised by Andrew Carnegie or John Rockerfeller.

The real question though isn't comparing Bill Gates power to Andrew Carnegie's. It is comparing my power to the average guy from the past. When I was a kid, the police could kill any average person they wanted with impunity as long as they didn't go overboard and were discrete. Homosexuals could not admit to their lifestyle and hope to have a job, friends or a safe place to live. Mixed race couples were arrested. Black people would be burned out for living in white neighborhoods. While these problems still exist to some extent, they are newsworthy exceptions, not the norm.

The biggest example I can see of the empowering of the masses is the war in Iraq. Compare what George Bush had to do to go to war in Iraq with what LBJ had to do to go to war in Vietnam. Bush went to the UN, presented his case to the American people, got advance approval from congress and laid out a case for technical, moral and security justification. You may not have believed him, or been swayed by what he presented, but he performed these actions. All this, and a modest majority approved of war, but a war that had better be over damn fast. LBJ presented some doctored dispatches to a few congressional leaders, and that allowed him to wage a war that lasted longer than any other in US history. All of this because the opinion of the people matters now, it didn't in the 1960's.

Njorl
 
  • #16
FZ+
1,599
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All of this because the opinion of the people matters now, it didn't in the 1960's.
While this is obviously a good thing, the real question is whether it is enough.
 
  • #17
Let me see if I can break this down.

Problem: Even free capitalist societies suffer from a stratification of governance that causes an elite group at the top. This is troublesome because power corrupts.

Solution: Term limits.

In the US we do employ term limits to varying extents at the State and Local levels of government. And of course, the Presidency of the US is also subject to term limits.

Periodically, even the US Senate & House of Representatives consider and vote on term limits.

Even if a Constitutional Amendment were passed that would subject all governmental officials to term limits, the problem would not be solved. The reason is because these positions of power will not change. Only the duration of holding the office would change. Limiting the term causes problems of it's own as well.

The real solution is for the electorate to pay more attention and elect better leaders.
 
  • #18
russ_watters
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Where in the constitution is it illegal to economically exploit your fellow man? I'd say it was encouraged for most of american history.
Originally posted by kyleb
well FZ+, i got that out of this part:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
best i can tell that says that you can do whatever the hell you want as long as you do not go taking someone else life, restricting their liberty or infringing on their pursuit of happiness. however, even though it says that right there on top of everything; looking at all the laws we have it is reasonable to assume that the majority of our government could care less about the constitution.
OMG, I agree with kyleb [runs away screaming in terror].

[five minutes and a double shot of vodka later...]
I would however argue that we are getting better and not worse. The exploitations of people by business today are nothing compared to the economic anarchy that we faced as a result of the industrial revolution. Legislation has fixed a LOT of problems. But there is still work to do.

The beauty of the preamble to the Constitution is it says what the rest of the Constitution can't - government exists to uphold those ideals. And if it isn't, its not doing its job. Thats the measuring stick.

I haven't read John Locke and Thomas Hobbes (just out of curiosity, wasn't Hobbes a firm defender of Monarchy?
No, Hobbes disscusses the concept of political authority being derived from the people. Its an early iteration where he talked of "giving up" your right to govern yourself to a person or group, but that's not the same as a monarchy. In a monarchy the people never had that right in the first place. Hobbes also debunks anarchy and discusses rights or "laws of nature." Its an outstanding work of political theory. Again, political theory has evolved somewhat since then, but his work I think got the ball rolling on modern democracy. http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/h/hobbes.htm is a good (short) link to get you started.

I think you missed John Stewart Mill and his explanation of the dictatorship of majority.
That problem is addressed in the constitution. It is one of the primary reasons we have the Bill of Rights.
Then, I suggest you read Anthony Giddens' "Sociology" for it will, at least, give you a minimal understanding of how complicated the human world can be.
The name rings a bell. I probably have read some of it though I can't remember it. I'll get myself a refresher. And I never said these concepts were simple. If they were simple it wouldn't be so difficult to create a decent government.
Democracy is a dream, a beautiful dream one may presume but it isn't feasible.
I'm sorry, but IMO, the existence of the Constitution proves this wrong.
This is a dilemma: without central administration societies can't have more than 50 or so inhabitants thus losing all the benefits of being in numbers, with central administration corruption and Oligarchy is inevitable.
So what's your solution (and now I'm a little confused)? You seem to be suggesting we need anarchy. But modern anarchists aren't anarchists, they are socialists/communists. And socialism/communism does NOT protect the rights of individuals it cedes ALL of them to the government.

I'm afraind you're wrong.
Manuel, pretty much everything you said after that is absurd. Particularly your statements on the US's consumption of energy and resources and the resulting pollution. You state this is all "to no use". The US most certainly DOES put our resources to use. We have by far the largest economy in the world. People always rank the US by per capita pollution. But that is an incorrect way to do it. Pollution levels must be compared to the economy. In that regard we are doing reasonably well (thats not to say we shouldn't try to do better).

This world is close to a verge. Someday in near future all human beings will see the outcome of 200 years of ignorant behavior, when homo sapiens will become extinct.
All I can say is wow. I'd see someone about that...

A true solution to this dilemma can be proven to be non-existent but with enough care there are hopes that a society passes the critical limit with safety.
So we're all doomed? I truly truly feel sorry for you. It must be painful believing that.
You can live a life that the majority of the human inhabitants of this planet can't even dream of.
Au contraire. The American Dream is free for all. All you have to do is follow our example. The entire westernized world is prosperous for that very reason.
 
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  • #19
FZ+
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The real solution is for the electorate to pay more attention and elect better leaders.

PRECISELY!
 
  • #20
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Njorl
The tyranny of the majority is not unaddressed in the US Constitution. It was debated very hotly in the Anti-Federalist and Federalist Papers. The result was the Bill of Rights, protecting the voices of dissent, religious minorities, accused criminals and other unpopular people. Recognizing that this would not likely be adequate, provision was made to amend the Constitution to allow future rights to be added.

Njorl
Damn you, Njorl, you're so concise you beat me to it. :wink:
 
  • #21
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Alias The real solution is for the electorate to pay more attention and elect better leaders.

Originally posted by FZ+
PRECISELY!
Imagine that - for democracy to work people have to participate. Wait, I'm confused...

If there is any reason the US will fail, it will be due to the lack of participation of the public. Complacency. Democracy takes a little bit of effort.
 
  • #22
FZ+
1,599
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Originally posted by russ_watters
But modern anarchists aren't anarchists, they are socialists/communists. And socialism/communism does NOT protect the rights of individuals it cedes ALL of them to the government.
<snip>
Au contraire. The American Dream is free for all. All you have to do is follow our example. The entire westernized world is prosperous for that very reason.
1. Not really. They are "anti-capitalists". They are not neccessarily pro-communists. From what I have gleaned, they follow the ideas of socalism, not the political precedent. Ie. They believe in the idea of equality. They may be over-idealistic, I grant that, but they are centainly not pro-centralising.
And there is really a wide gamut of socialism. Only the soviet idea of socialist dictatorship, penned by Stalin under the justification of protecting the Russian State contains the idea of an all powerful government. Many more moderate forms are based on democracy as an idea, and right for all in principle.

2. The reality is that the American Dream is really not free for all. It was gained at tremendous cost, and often by walking over the bodies of others. Shameful as it may be, the nation would not be the way it is without the profits of two world wars, cheap labour from impoverished third world nations, a century of slavery and exploitation of native populations. Even now, some of our successes are based on the debasement of others. Everything comes at a cost... And if everyone in the world has the same degree of life, and hence pollution etc like the US, the situation cannot be supported.
The core principles of the US on the other hand do well to be exported across the world. But not completely. We must not run the risk of self-righteousness, of arrogance. In the end, each country has its own path to prosperity.
 
  • #23
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
1. For Njorl:

You and I don't think the same way but you're brilliant. I couldn't find a single fault in your post.

Considering your post, I can think of few questions:

a. You and your people, US citizens, are moving towards a better situation. How fast then? Will you pass the critical limit just in time?

b. Assume the US president will always do exactly what the nation sees the best for it. What if the president has enough resources to make the nation see his own desires as the right thing?

2. For Alias:

You've mistaken dynamism with term limits. Term limits will certainly cause the authority structure to be refreshed once a while but it won't guarantee a real change. If you replace a president with another you can't be sure if they don't belong to an elite group who share common benefits.

Dynamism in elite body must ensure that new manners and ideas are taken into account. Term limits aren't the right form of dynamism.

As for the US state, similar practices have been practiced for over a century, in foreign policy at least. Domination has always been the goal and equality of the two sides of internationl interaction has never been taken into account. It seems the US authority has always thought that a good future is guaranteed by gaining advantage at the cost of others' disadvantage.

The US elite doesn't seem to have changed in the course of 20th century. Big industry owners and economical magnates have been the constant members. They'll clearly see their economical benefit prior to all other concerns.

And one more time I have to say this isn't a solution, it is a backdoor to a dilemma.

3. For russ_waters:
The beauty of the preamble to the Constitution is it says what the rest of the Constitution can't - government exists to uphold those ideals. And if it isn't, its not doing its job. Thats the measuring stick.
I've got a Project Gutenberg eText of the US Bill of Rights. I especially liked the part where it prohibits any interference of the army in residential territories inside the US (why not outside? aren't they human enough to be treated like humans?). The US Bill of Rights, just like those of other countries, is a brilliant text but it is a piece of text after all. It can't gurantee what is out of its context.

That that the US Bill of Rights is perfectly performed in the US can be a challenging question.
No, Hobbes disscusses the concept of political authority being derived from the people...
Thanks for the information and the link.
I'm sorry, but IMO, the existence of the Constitution proves this wrong.
The Constitution is an ideal. Its existence and even the majority's desire for its being perfectly materialized don't guarantee anything. Many scenarios can be conceived of to bypass the Constitution.

It doesn't prohibit the gathering of wealth to any amount. Wealth is another form of power which can quite efficiently interfere with or interrupt political power. A wealthy individual is privileged to the extents that would really disturb the writers of the Constitution even though nothing against the Constitution has happened.
So what's your solution (and now I'm a little confused)? ...
In the section for Alias in my last post I described a backdoor for delaying the dilemma until the critical limit is passed. There's no real solution but there is a way out.
Manuel, pretty much everything you said after that is absurd...
Energy consumption and pollution can't be excused unless a real necessity is proven. US citizens use up much more than they need (even if we take an extremely wide range of needs into account). It really isn't meaningful to have every north American kid have a PC, a PDA and a notebook computer when an African new-born is dying of hunger. It isn't sensible to use up plastic dishes to get rid of dishwashing.

You could say US citizens aren't responsible for the fault and failure of African parents. They wouldn't be if they had gathered their wealth without conspiracy and militant action but they have done so. The resources on this planet are limited and almost fixed (over short periods, of course), if someone lacks enough resources someone eles has too much.

Astorias' "The Green Pope" is just a polite example of what US foreign policy has done to many other countries. I, for one, am suffering US foreign policy without having ever done anything against the US. You can't deny it for I'm the live witness to that.

In case of pollution, the US needn't pollute the environment as much as it does to produce the same amount of goods. They do it because it's cheaper. Moreover, the pollution won't be in US borders for most of those polluting industrial complexes are located in third world countries. American industry owners use cheap man hours in those countries and at the same time pollute their environment. Does this fact seem absurd?
All I can say is wow. I'd see someone about that...
You can be sure of that. I'm not predicting the end the world, I'm predicting the end of homo sapiens. There's sufficient biological evidence to show that if serious measures aren't taken the human species will become extinct in a matter of 100 years.

For a popular description take a look at: Asimov, Isaac - Stars in Their Courses, Chaps. 14-17.

There are even biologists on the frontiers who're talking of the possibility that homo sapiens is a self-destructive species. This isn't Politics, it's Science.
So we're all doomed? I truly truly feel sorry for you. It must be painful believing that.
This species is not doomed. It's at a critical moment of its history where wrong steps can't be tolerated. I wrote there's no true solution but there's a backdoor to ensure survival.

By the way, that you don't feel the pain doesn't mean there is no pain. It means you've become numb somewhere (where?).

Au contraire. The American Dream is free for all. All you have to do is follow our example. The entire westernized world is prosperous for that very reason.
I don't know. It doesn't seem the entire westernized world wishes the same for others. US foreign policy hasn't been towards a democratic world but towards a democratic US/EU (even their willingness towards a democratic EU is a matter of doubt) that has enslaved other nations and sucked up their resources, animate or inanimate, to the last drop.

My country's inhabitants tried more than once to establish a real democracy but each time US/European foreign policy canceled their efforts one way or the other. For they didn't want a democratic state to rule my country, they wanted a Cabal faithful to fulfilling their wishes to achieve the American Dream in the US/Europe and leave my country with all its resources dried up. One way or the other they've driven my country to either total enslavement or aggressive extremism.

Suppose my nation really calls upon the US government to come and liberate them. Will the US government then establish a real democracy in my country, I mean have they changed since Pinochet? Won't they sell my country's resources and people to their multinational companies, I mean have they changed since Guatemala's whole sale? Won't they use my people like slaves? Will they help my nation just like they helped Germany or they'll help my nation like Japan, with military bases and troops who rape 13-year-old girls and go back home like heroes?

If you, russ_waters US citizen, gurantee the righteousness of your state I'll take your word but if someday something else is proven then you'll be responsible for that. You'll be a bastard if you've lied to me, you know.

4. For FZ+:

Just thank you.
 
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  • #24
Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
Will they help my nation just like they helped Germany or they'll help my nation like Japan, with military bases and troops who rape 13-year-old girls and go back home like heroes?

Oh please Manuel!

Japan is an economic and technological bohemoth second only to the US in those combined terms. *edited*.

While I think your solution seems to make some sense, it is simply too nebulous in its current form to be implemented. Remember, the big ideas might come from pure science, but it is applied science that carries the day.

Propose a solution that can be implemented. Rather than shedding tears about some 13 year old girl, a better use of your effort would be to develop some real details relating to the implementation of "Dynamism in Elite Bodies".

Also, so that we can put some of your comments in context, please tell us where you live?
 
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  • #25
russ_watters
Mentor
21,942
8,979
Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
I've got a Project Gutenberg eText of the US Bill of Rights. I especially liked the part where it prohibits any interference of the army in residential territories inside the US (why not outside? aren't they human enough to be treated like humans?). The US Bill of Rights, just like those of other countries, is a brilliant text but it is a piece of text after all. It can't gurantee what is out of its context.

That that the US Bill of Rights is perfectly performed in the US can be a challenging question.
The Bill of Righs is designed to protect US citizens only. So the Bill of Rights is irrelevant to how we treat other countries. Like you said - not in its context. Nor should it be.
It doesn't prohibit the gathering of wealth to any amount. Wealth is another form of power which can quite efficiently interfere with or interrupt political power. A wealthy individual is privileged to the extents that would really disturb the writers of the Constitution even though nothing against the Constitution has happened.
That idea is wholly incompatbile with the freedoms and rights the Constitution was designed to protect. There is nothing inherrently evil about being successful (rich). However, since you would appear to be a communist/socialist, maybe you DO think there is something inherrently evil about it...

You could say US citizens aren't responsible for the fault and failure of African parents.
Yes. And I would say exactly that. Their failure is their own fault.
It really isn't meaningful to have every north American kid have a PC, a PDA and a notebook computer when an African new-born is dying of hunger.
We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, aren't we? Owning a PDA and being altruistic are NOT mutually exclusive concepts. But for the most part the world won't LET us help those in real need. Case in point: Iraq. And let's not forget Somalia - they succesfuly fought off our effort to stop their own genocide and starvation.
Moreover, the pollution won't be in US borders for most of those polluting industrial complexes are located in third world countries.
Yes of course. Bad environmental policies in other countries are all our fault. Are earthquakes our fault too? Seriosly, this is so absurd. If china wants to fix the massive pollution problem they have, it is up to them to do so. But of course they have the same reason for not doing as much as we do: MONEY. One difference though is in the US we actually HAVE environmental protection laws. Its no secret that the USSR was an environmental disaster far beyond anything the US has done. Oh wait, that's our fault too...

**************************************
. I, for one, am suffering US foreign policy without having ever done anything against the US. You can't deny it for I'm the live witness to that.
Actually, could you tell us HOW exactly the US is causing you to suffer? What is your suffering? This would also help us greatly in understanding the basis of your point of view. It would appear that most people in here who are anti-US feel they have been personally wronged by us.
 
  • #26
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
1. For Alias:

Well, I have to exclude Japan from my list. The US could reduce Japan to nothing after WWII, it could smash Japan's economical/industrial infrastructure but didn't. That was wise and humane, yet profitable. The US now has a worthy competitor to inspire growth and advancement.
While I think your solution seems to make some sense, it is simply too nebulous...
You're right. The only way I can think of for achieving dynamism in elite body is individual awareness, both in the nation and its elite body. If the members of the elite body become knowledgeable thinkers they themselves will guarantee the dynamism but finding knowledgeable thinkers is a cumbersome task and setting them up as the elite is even harder. There're always those who can't be classified in that group but find their way into the elite body.

Perhaps the best manner is increasing average awareness of the society to ensure there will be a minimum number of trustable individuals in the elite body. This is happening right now, alas, too slowly.

Increasing average social awareness seems to be related with education but then even in societies where all people have had basic education, social awareness can't be guaranteed. It needs much more than education. All people won't become scientists, the same way all people won't become socially aware. Becoming a scientist depends on many obscure factors, so does becoming socially aware.
Also, so that we can put some of your comments in context, please tell us where you live?
That may awaken unconscious hostility so I won't tell. I apologize if apologies are due. What part of my comments you can't put in context?

2. For russ_waters:
That idea is wholly incompatbile with the freedoms and rights the Constitution was designed to protect...
I don't appreciate the use of "evil" there, I'd rather say "problematic." Here is another dilemma: if a system of governance limits the amount of wealth associated with an individual it has limited the potential of growth (and possibly induced corruption of power), on the other hand, if it let's individual wealth grow as much as possible it has raised the potential of abuse and lobbying (for wealth is a parallel to political power).

Both parts of the dilemma have been put to test. The USSR before NEP suffered very low growth rate and motivation because of limitations. The US suffers undeniable lobbying and abuse because of almost limitless freedom within legal boundaries.
Yes. And I would say exactly that. Their failure is their own fault.
What about US/Europe history of domination over these countries? Didn't South Africa suffer Apartheid (which was clearly a harsh implementation of racism) with European support? Didn't Algeria witness slaughter by the European (the French, in particular)? Aren't most of current civil wars in Africa fought with American weapons on both sides? They can't foresee the results of civil wars but US weapon dealers arm them just for money.
We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, aren't we? Owning a PDA and being altruistic are NOT mutually exclusive concepts...
There's no such thing as altruism. I'm talking of mutual benefit and equality. The US treated Germany well after WWII and now they both are enjoying mutual benefits.

I'm not quite sure if US pursued the same targets in Somalia and Iraq as for Germany. These countries have had a bad time with their mostly European dominators. The US/European dominators enslaved the African, misled Arabs, deceived the people of Latin America, robbed them of their resources and didn't let them enjoy what in fact belonged to them.

The European were righteous to some extent for the people of those countries couldn't extract and use these resources but surely deserved at least half of the profit to be able to develop their land and someday become independent developed countries. The European, however, saw it to their benefit to keep these people in poverty and unawareness. This was inhuman and unwise for this attitude made the gap between developed and undeveloped countries even wider and gave birth to militant resistance cells in those countries who now appear as terrorists come to take vengeance for all the years of domination and the following years of poverty and pain. Nothing other than deep pain makes someone lose her/his life as a suicide-bomber.
... Bad environmental policies in other countries are all our fault...
I never meant that. Those polluting industrial complexes aren't native to the countries they're located in. This isn't bad environmental politics in those countries. It's seeking even more profit for the US industry owners who find it a precious point of weakness, a kissable blend of poverty and lack of environmental laws. Even if those courtiers had the right laws, they had to give in for the chip of profit US industry owners throw for them. After all they're poor and they aren't US citizens, what prevents the industry owners from abusing them?

And what do you mean with a line of asterisks?
Actually, could you tell us HOW exactly the US is causing you to suffer? What is your suffering? This would also help us greatly in understanding the basis of your point of view. It would appear that most people in here who are anti-US feel they have been personally wronged by us.
I have to be honest. I've always had rich food, treated water, electricity, books, education and almost the latest technological advances available to a below average US citizen (except for the PDAs and broadband Internet access which haven't become popular here).

This, however, is threatened by almost non-existent social and political security and unbelievably corrupt authority. In the course of the last 400 years, my country experienced 3 situations of desirable reform. The first two were canceled out by the British and the last by the American. Resultant was an extremist revolution leading into a system of governance which was really good for almost 2 years and then came the corruption and war.

The war was induced by the US. The weapons for the violator were provided by the US and European countries, they aided the violator financially to a magnitude of tens of billion dollars. The violator used BNC type weapons against my country provided by Germany and France while they accused my country of using them. After the war, UN confirmed that my country hadn't used any BNC weapons and that my country wasn't the violator. The violator had international support and never paid the compensation. My country held times the number of POWs they held because they killed more than they captured. There were still POWs of my country in the prisons of the violator until the last month. Imagine, some of them were there for 20 years. And I spent my childhood during that war.

War necessities brought the worst possible groups to power and gave them the excuse for doing everything. Opposition and hostility from the US also allowed them to do whatever they wanted in the name of homeland security (haha, you're going to see what homeland security means :wink:). Now they're still there and do whatever they please.

Before the revolution, Britain and Russia first and the US later made use of my country to govern the region. They didn't give my nation the means of development, instead they armed my country to be the region's bulldog. They didn't let my nation find its way to prosperity, instead they helped a military man (someone like Kemal Ataturk) get to power to fulfill their wishes.

I'm not blind to my country's and my nation's faults. What happens to them these days is the outcome of their own idiocy and weaknesses but only partly. A big share of this situation is made up by the Europeans and the US.

By the way, I'm NOT anti-US. I think the US has always done its best for its citizens and that's enough for a good state but not enough for today's complex and interconnected world. The nations are inseparably tied together and policies that serve homeland advantage at the cost of others' disadvantage, won't work anymore.
 
  • #27
arivero
Gold Member
3,397
123
hmm we?

I thought "WE" was acrostic for Western Europe (see previous discussions around the net).

So "WE did not start the war, it was started by US" is almost a gramatically perfect and true sentence.
 
  • #28
Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
The US is the biggest polluter of the environment.

What?! Are you joking? Perhaps you should do a bit of research. Might I suggest the words "India" and "China" as a starting point? Perhaps "Mexico" may jar your mind, even.

Thank you very much.

Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
The US is the biggest producer of weapons.

Heh. We don't sell them to the highest bidder, though. Perhaps you could rephrase that as "having the largest nationally condoned military power".

Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
The US is the biggest consumer of energy, to no use.
No use? Wait a minute. The power needs of 280 million people serve no needs? Seeing as how you admit that you haven't been in the USA, wtf do you know? Just because we are intelligent enough to provide for our own (with a bit to spare for civilization's sake) doesn't mean we are useless in our consumption. No use, forsooth. I find the tone of your argument very offensive indeed.


Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
The US, with all its resourcefulness, is wasting the chance to colonize space that is our only way to long-term survival.

I challenge any country, I repeat, ANY COUNTRY, indeed, to come within one iota of the expenditure both in resources and manpower to colonize space that the US exhibits. We are, sir, the ONLY driving source for colonization that now exists. Period.

Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
The US, with all its love for Democracy, has been the only supporter of several dictators all over the world, Augusto Pinochet for example. For a close-up, read Isabel Allende's "La Casa de los Espiritus" (The House of The Spirits).

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

You run your country the way you want. Why do you feel it's our responsibility for your backwardness. Albeit, cross us and its a whole other story :) And as for "sole" supporter - where the f*ck do you get this info anyway? Let me introduce you to a few colleagues of ours: Russia, France, China, Germany, England, Japan... need I go on?

Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
The US, with all its love for peace, has initiated many wars after WW II, Iraq-Iran war for example.

No sir. Every war (including the current one) was started by others. The significant fact you seem to be missing is that the US alone had the power to end it.

Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
The US, with all its love for human rights, has to all extents (even militant action, aside from conspiracy) supported several multinational companies to suck up poor people's blood to make money for the US.
This is asinine. Period. Look at what foolishness you are spouting, dear friend : "Multinational" means, literally, "many nations". How can you blame the US for everyone's mistakes (assuming they are actually exploitive mistakes to begin with which IMHO they are not). Control thyself, please.

Originally posted by Manuel_Silvio
I don't care if I or a billion other individuals die but I do care if the species is going to disappear.
Do you think it's Sci-Fi? You're dreaming of safety then. This world is close to a verge. Someday in near future all human beings will see the outcome of 200 years of ignorant behavior, when homo sapiens will become extinct.

You may be quite right.

You must understand however, the USA has more cognizance of these issues than almost anyone on the planet (mostly because we can afford it). Such accusations as you propound are not only ignorant of the facts, but totally anticausal in nature!

You, sir, may throw stones only if your slate is clean. Otherwise, STFU and let us get on with saving the sorry world your 3-rd world evangelists have bequeathed from an ignominious demise. Thank you very much.
 
  • #29
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
1. For Ganshauk:

What?! Are you joking? Perhaps you should do a bit of research. Might I suggest the words "India" and "China" as a starting point? Perhaps "Mexico" may jar your mind, even.
No, I'm quite serious. For a cold start read this article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2042856.stm

These Sahelian countries have almost no industrial complexes to pollute for they don't even have the knowledge for building factories, let alone the money. They suffered drought because others' (and those greedy ones, of course) were producing goods. This is just a nice example where no one knew what the effects were. There are harsher examples where almost everyone knows what's happening. Some stuff on that subject: (read them word by word)
http://library.thinkquest.org/26026...oblems_in_the_thir.html?tqskip1=1&tqtime=0413
http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/05/05242002/ap_47341.asp [Broken]

Mexico city is one of the most polluted urban areas in the world but they aren't the biggest polluters. See how US industry pollutes abroad while it benefits unaware citizens (good for US citizens but bad for everyone else, in the long run US citizens will suffer, too):
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=2588 [Broken]

The US rejected Kyoto Protocol along with Australia (I guess, if US didn't do so they'd seem to be breaking it on a daily basis). I'd like to draw your attention to these paragraphs:

"The poorest suffer
A harsh fact of global climate change is that while rich countries are more to blame, it is people in poor countries who stand to suffer the most. Some would argue that it is not feasible to expect developing countries to contribute hugely to reductions when they are not to blame for the current situation."

"After the US pulled out in March 2001, the treaty was left shattered. A compromise was reached four months later, with nearly 180 nations opting for a scaled-down version of the treaty, but President Bush has stated that the US will never sign it."

From the BBC artcile on Kyoto Treaty:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/climatechange/kyototreaty.shtml [Broken]

And George W. Bush says he'll be pursuing other more efficient policies. I think you're informed enough about his backgrounds and past to see what he means with "efficient."

Another BBC article along with its chart of carbon dioxide emission (where the US reigns supreme followed by China, Russia, Japan, Germany, India, UK, Canada, Italy and Korea)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1248278.stm

Another set of regional CO2 emissions estimates:
http://arch.rivm.nl/env/int/hyde/eise_co2a.html [Broken]

See, my country and Mexico aren't among them but the US is atop. It's me who suffers the pollution while I've never enjoyed the wealth produced by these polluting countries (anyway I don't want that wealth). US's 280 million people, about 4.7% of world population produce about 25% of the entire CO2 emission. It seems fair, don't you agree?

SO2 emmission estimates:
http://arch.rivm.nl/env/int/hyde/eise_lefohn.html [Broken]

East Asia is atop, followed by the US and then the former USSR. See, the US precedes the former USSR.

East Asia is a rival to US in these emissions estimates. The reason is that many of those multinationals have their factories located where the poverty dilemma reigns (especially in China).

I'm not claiming that other countries are innocent lambs but the US has been a damn bad liar among them. Never accepted their guilt while their biggie big industry owners were polluting abroad (and perhaps even within their own national borders, who rules there, do you think?). Always pretended like they were doing the right thing until they themselves believed the big lie (seems so).

Heh. We don't sell them to the highest bidder, though. Perhaps you could rephrase that as "having the largest nationally condoned military power".
Hah! The US has armed Arabs and Isreal (aside from financial aids that've given Israel the ability to rival US in weapons R&D), they armed Iraq against Iran, they arm African militias (legally or illegaly), they supply arms to anyone who pays (legally or illegaly, in fact all against the laws but supported by those who're beyond laws, guess who).

The US has the largest storage of weapons in all flavors. See this for a comparison of defense budgets:
http://www.clw.org/milspend/ushighestbudget.html [Broken]

You see, the increase over 2002-2003 fiscal year is far larger than UK's entire defense budget.

Who are they going to fight? And how do they excuse such a big waste of energy and raw material? Will they possibly recycle cruise missiles when they find out no one is out there to fight them? Just tell me who wants to do them harm? The worst scenario (which makes your CNN reporters shed crocodile tears) is a bunch of terrorists and the "baddies." It won't need as much weapons as the US has stored by now to wipe them off the planet, let alone so much more they're going to produce.

No use? Wait a minute. The power needs of 280 million people serve no needs? ...

Yes, to no use. The US has wasted unbelievable amounts of energy and material on providing your nation with luxury and to produce absolutely useless loads of weapons. This world is hungry and decaying, and the US wastes the (mostly stolen) resources of poor nations on producing what would best suit American dogs, cats, and recently pythons and chameleons. And there's no limit to what US citizens may enjoy; do you like pretty female Andriods at the cost of a few hundred African lives or you'd prefer interactive TV working on VLSI chips that cost Asian blood and sweat?

Take a look at this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gmdebate/Story/0,2763,805825,00.html

Aside from this example, the US has practiced grain dumping in face of surpluses for many years. Who gave them the right to play with others' lives? Just tell me who let those agricultural giants seek their profit in other people's death and suffering?

Is that intelligence that makes the US superior or deception, conspiracy, fix and ... well, these are forms of intelligence, na?
http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=2174 [Broken]
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/28/039.html

Unfortunately enough, even all of US citizens aren't enjoying this dirty wealth:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/povertyrate.html [Broken]

And see how the US precedes every other nation in per capita energy consumption:
http://relcom.website.ru/wfs-moscow/eng/morrison.htm [Broken]

This isn't the sum, this is per person. Every American individual consumes times more than people of other coutries, even Western Europe. Where's this abundance come from? Do its sources lie within your national boundaries? Do you have energon crystals there?! Oh, no! Energon is a tale. You have the "intelligence" to take away others' rights, use up their resources and call them "barbarian," "uncivilized" and "evil." That must be fun!
... expenditure both in resources and manpower to colonize space that the US exhibits...
I'm not a liar, like you are. I will be honest. No country can come close to US's space research advances but that's not enough. No country can afford budgets of the magnitude the US government grants but that's not enough. The US is mankind's only hope for that purpose even if the colonists will be all American.

Why doesn't your president increase NASA budget while he requests an astronomical increase for DoD, military research and offense-oriented budgets? Isn't that he lacks foresight? Isn't that waste of resources?
http://www.aaas.org/spp/cstc/stc/stc01/01-03/bushbudget.htm [Broken]

Don't tell me these resources are all yours and you well know how to spend (read: waste) them. This wealth has been gathered out of cheap man hours in Asia, Africa, the former Soviet Union (perhaps except Russia and Ukraine), Latin America and South America. This wealth has been gathered out of deprivations most of the world's population experience, out of nations' whole sale in the name of liberation (read: enslavement).
You run your country the way you want. Why do you feel it's our responsibility for your backwardness...
Lies, lies and more lies. How did you learn that my nation has ever had any options during the last 400 years?

If it was my nation's right to control their land, why did the US help a tyrant, who was on the run, come back to my country and rule? Why did the US sort out things for the tyrant to imprison my country's legal Prime Minister? Why did the US oppose the nationalization of resources controlled by American-British corporations?

Why did the US impose capitulation laws on my country? Did you know that 40 years ago an American dog had more rights in my country than human individuals of my nation?

Do you know what is the meaning of CAPITULATION LAWS?

Do you know how many people did that tyrant kill before his fall? Do you know US's opposition with reforms in my country led to an extremist revolution?

My country's previous regime, led by the tyrant, was pro-US. It killed and tortured many people. The tyrant's sister had a drug business run here. The tyrant saw the US as his benefactor and gave them unconditional privileges for taking away whatever they wanted. My country's new regime is contra-US. What's happened? My nation freed themselves from a pro-US tyrant to get trapped in an extremist contra-US regime. This so-called contra-US regime couldn't be there if the US didn't show so much hostility against my nation and against all their efforts for peaceful reforms. Do you know the cost of extremism? The revolution ate its own children.

continued on the next post...
 
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  • #30
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
continued from the previous post...

Do you know my nation is poor partly because of US's unfair embargoes? My country has to buy US-made goods from third parties at prices times more than their real cost.
... Look at what foolishness you are spouting, dear friend : "Multinational" means, literally, "many nations". How can you blame the US for everyone's mistakes (assuming they are actually exploitive mistakes to begin with which IMHO they are not)...
Literal meaning doesn't always equal the technical meaning of a word. Multinational companies aren't made to serve several nations; they're first-world-based giants whose dominion spans across several nations. The polluting and labor-requiring parts are usually located in third world and developing countries where labor force is cheap and environmental rules aren't strict (because if they were, those countries had to trade off people's lives for a clean environment for they're dependent on the minuscule part of the profit that multinational companies share with them) while the management and the market is located in first world and developed countries or the richer parts of developing countries.

Most and worst of world's multinationals are from the US. Their top HQ is located in the US plus that the big part of profit flows directly home. The blood and sweat of the Asian turns into the luxury of the American. Do you like it? Surely!
http://www.truthinmedia.org/Columns/clip-26-97.html [Broken]
You must understand however, the USA has more cognizance of these issues than almost anyone on the planet (mostly because we can afford it). Such accusations as you propound are not only ignorant of the facts, but totally anticausal in nature!

You, sir, may throw stones only if your slate is clean. Otherwise, STFU and let us get on with saving the sorry world your 3-rd world evangelists have bequeathed from an ignominious demise. Thank you very much.
If the US is concerned with these issues then where does this whole lot of evidence (all from pro-US sources) I presented come from?

Once again I repeat, I'm not anti-US. I've said before that I think the US is the beating heart of this world (read my previous posts).

I'm not directing accusations at anyone. I'm only tired of lies, useless pride and hypocrisy. I'm not pointing at an ordinary US citizen. I'm not pointing at you, russ_waters, Alias or any other ordinary individual from the US.

Now I no more care if this world is going to blow, no matter who has caused that. I just don't want to hear lies:

"We are the Messiah to this world!"
"We've come to rescue"
"We've come to liberate"
"Oh! Good we helped the barbarians!"
"We, altruist Americans, have donated so much"
"We aren't guilty of what happens in this world"
"We are the righteous!"
"Those baddies don't like us, why? We're so good"
"We, Crusaders of the Lord, have come to bye bye the infidels"
.
.
.
.

And my slate is clean for I'm not lying.
 
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  • #31
Wrong. There is a "we"


But There Is No Try :wink:


My country has to buy US-made goods from third parties at prices times more than their real cost.

Maybe I mis-understand but I don't think I do. If you buy goods from third parties that bought them from the US then they are now in possession of them and can put the prices wherever they want to. It is not the fault of the US that you buy from the lousy people that you buy from. They by them from us and like I said, can put the prices wherever they want.
 
  • #32
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
1. For Nicool003:

... If you buy goods from third parties that bought them from the US then they are now in possession of them and can put the prices wherever they want to. It is not the fault of the US that you buy from the lousy people that you buy from...
So if some US corporation has a monopoly on some product inside US borders and sells it at its favorite price, they're absolutely right. Matter of fact it isn't that way. Even the US, the home of free trade, has regulations that prevent monopoly and excessive profit on products. You have something called consumer rights (over quality and price). Why on Earth do you think Microsoft was sued? What is this anti-trust controversy all about?

The US has all the good for inside its borders but when it comes to thinking of others' rights they act like others are inferior.

Those lousy people who sell US-made goods and act as the middleman are all US's allies, they're members of the EU and/or some Arab countries. The US is well aware of this and sets the embargoes as sort of gift to those agent countries. That's why I call them "unfair" embargoes. They aren't there because my nation is guilty of some proven international crime; they're there to benefit the agents.

Plus that some of these goods are so essential that can't be denied even to a real enemy, let alone my country that has no power against the US (but they treat my nation like an enemy for they always need a "them" to place "us" against in order to ensure their national unity is maintained). There are certain chemicals used for the manufacturing of some basic medicines (these chemicals have no military use). There are expensive drugs for heart conditions and some other severe diseases. There are machines used in blood treatment after it's taken from blood donors (they do have military use but you can't tell people to die because some machine has military use).

My country had to buy all of these so it was forced to pay many times more and lose the funds it needed so hard for development.

The US, on the other hand, needs raw material for its industries. The stream of raw material is provided by many undeveloped countries that’ve nothing but unrecoverable natural resources. Whenever one of these countries has tried to cut down the supply in order to increase the prices or to take some advantage of its customers, the US has canceled out this effort with either militant action or conspiracy and deception.

If this game has some rules (like that you say the possessor has rights over whatever the possession) the rules apply to everyone. The US can't play the game all to its own benefit. There's something called "mutual" benefit that the US authority seems to be unaware of.

It's unfair to oblige my country to sell its resources at a limited price but force it into buying its needs at unrestricted prices times more than the real costs.
 
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  • #33
russ_watters
Mentor
21,942
8,979
If it was my nation's...
You keep referencing your nation, but you won't tell us what nation it is. Unless we know there is no discussion possible.

And the row of asterisks was there to set that part of the post out: Your opinion appears based on personal experience and your perceptions of the US's actions toward your country. It is essential that we know who we are talking to in order to have an informed discussion. I will tell you pretty much anything about me you want to know (within reason).
 
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  • #34
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
1. For russ_waters:
You keep referencing your nation, but you won't tell us what nation it is. Unless we know there is no discussion possible.
I said it may rise unconscious hositlity and apologized. Do you mean perhaps I'm not telling the truth about my nation and you have to compare my claims to some more creditable sources? If you really need it I'll risk telling you. Do you really need it?
 
  • #35
Manuel_Silvio
121
0
I apologize again! I can't tell you but I guess you already know where I'm from. I've given so much detail.
 

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