1. Not finding help here? Sign up for a free 30min tutor trial with Chegg Tutors
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Thermodynamics, gas expansion

  1. Apr 2, 2012 #1

    fluidistic

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    1. The problem statement, all variables and given/known data
    Two moles of a monoatomic ideal gas expand adiabatically from a temperature [itex]T_i=0°C[/itex] and a pressure of 1 atm until the temperature reaches [itex]T=-50°C[/itex].
    1)What are the initial and final volumes and the final pressure of the system?
    2)Calculate the work done by the gas. What are the initial and final internal energies of the gas?

    2. Relevant equations
    I)PV=NRT
    II)[itex]U=\frac{3RT}{2}[/itex].
    III)[itex]PV^{3/2}=constant[/itex]

    3. The attempt at a solution
    1)Using I), I get that [itex]P_f V_f=3707.81J[/itex].
    Using III), I get that [itex]P_f V_f ^{3/2}=P_i V_i ^{3/2}=45400J[/itex].
    Then I isolated [itex]P_f[/itex] from I), plugged into III) and isolated [itex]V_f[/itex] to get [itex]V_f=3.5 m^3[/itex].
    This gives me [itex]P_f \approx 1059.61 Pa[/itex] or 0.01 atm. The answer of another student is 0.6 atm. What did I do wrong?!
    2)Since the process is adiabatic, there's no heat exchenge of the system with the environment, the change in internal energy is worth the work done on the gas. Using II), I get that the work done by the system is worth 297.9 cal (multiply by 4.186 to get joules). Initial internal energy[itex]=6808.67J[/itex] and final internal energy=[itex]5561.67J[/itex]. Again, the difference is the work done.
    Are these numbers correct for part 2)?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 2, 2012 #2

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    Hi fluidistic!

    Your formula (III) is off.
    The power should be 5/3 (γ=Cp/Cv).

    And let's see.
    If I understand your problem statement correctly, you have:
    $$\begin{array}{|c|c|c|}\hline
    & initial & final \\
    \hline
    T & 273.15\textrm{ K} & 223.15\textrm{ K}\\
    P & 1\textrm{ atm} & ?\\
    V & ? & ?\\
    n & 2\textrm{ mol} & 2\textrm{ mol} \\
    \hline \end{array}$$

    You seem to start from the final state.
    But how did you get that first result from (III)? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  4. Apr 2, 2012 #3
    using the data table that 'i like serena' created, you can solve for the volume in the initial state by doing v = nRT/P where R=.08205 (the pressure constant for atms)

    then you can use PiVi = PfVf because you know the values for all except Vf
    i got very different numbers than you did in the first part


    for part two the formula W = -PΔT, which gives you an answer in joules
    from this method, since P = 1 and T = -50K, I would think the work done would be equal to fifty joules
     
  5. Apr 2, 2012 #4

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    I'm afraid this is not true, since the expansion is adiabatic.
     
  6. Apr 2, 2012 #5
    but if its adiabatic doesn't that mean that there is no heat lost to the environment? and wouldn't that make the conditions of the system ideal, meaning that the standard equations are applicable?

    I haven't been formally taught thermodynamics yet if there is a fallacy in my understanding I appreciate you helping me out! thank you
     
  7. Apr 2, 2012 #6

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    Yep. No heat lost. Heat being different from temperature.
    This means ##P_i V_i^\gamma=P_f V_f^\gamma##, where ##\gamma=\frac {C_p} {C_v}##.

    See for instance:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_thermodynamic_equations#Equation_Table_for_an_Ideal_Gas
     
  8. Apr 2, 2012 #7
    Ok that makes sense since Q is the quantity of heat in Joules, I can see how that differs from a temperature in Kelvin

    But for the very first part of the problem, I did:
    PV = nRT
    V = (2*.o8205*273)/1
    Vi = 44.8 L , or , .0448cubic meters
    is this correct?
     
  9. Apr 2, 2012 #8

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    Well, I'd like to give the OP, fluidistic, a chance to solve the problem, before I try to help you solve the problem...
     
  10. Apr 2, 2012 #9

    fluidistic

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Ok thanks a lot for the 5/3 correction.
    I've redone everything.
    First I calculate [itex]V_i=0.0454 m^3[/itex]. I reached this from I).
    So now I calculate [itex]P_iV_i^{5/3}=577.59=V_fP_f^{5/3}[/itex] (*).
    From I), [itex]V_fP_f=NRT_f=3707.775[/itex]. I isolate [itex]P_f[/itex] and plug this into (*).
    I reach [itex]V_f=0.1558m^3[/itex]. So that [itex]P_f=23801.6 Pa \approx 0.238 atm[/itex].
    Still not the answer from the other student. Did I make another mistake?
     
  11. Apr 2, 2012 #10

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    Looks good, except you seem to have swapped Vf and Pf around in (*).
     
  12. Apr 2, 2012 #11

    fluidistic

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    The problem with the formula you give is that P isn't a constant. So what would you put in "W = -PΔT"?
    I think I got that part right in my first post, just waiting for someone to confirm. :)
    Basically the work done by the gas is worth the loss of internal energy of the gas. (The gas had to spend its internal energy to do some work).
    Edit: To IlikeSerena: Haha, thanks. Yeah indeed, a typo mistake here while posting, on my draft it's correct.
     
  13. Apr 2, 2012 #12

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    Yep. That part is correct. :)
     
  14. Apr 2, 2012 #13

    fluidistic

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Ok thank you very much I Like Serena!!!
    If the other guy wants some help, welcome.
     
  15. Apr 2, 2012 #14

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    So did you find the correct answer?
    Because it seems you have somehow plugged in your results incorrectly, since I also get 0.6 atm.
     
  16. Apr 2, 2012 #15

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    So if you hadn't already noticed, this is correct. :)
     
  17. Apr 2, 2012 #16
    yes, I comprehend that much but its the process after that which is causing me troubles

    I've never seen the formula with the 5/3 in it, I'll have to do some more research on the topic, and I'm not sure to what depth AP Physics B gets into thermodynamics, considering there's only three formulas given on the official formula sheet

    thanks for your help anyhow!
     
  18. Apr 2, 2012 #17

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    Oh well, if you know how to solve a differential equation, you can derive it yourself from formulas (I) and (II), combined with the fact that the change in internal energy equals the work done (in an adiabatic process of an ideal gas).
     
  19. Apr 2, 2012 #18

    fluidistic

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Yes thanks ILS, I get the 0.6 atm answer and P final about 0.0615 m³.
    I wonder why we don't usually use the fundamental relation for ideal gas instead of the 2 typical state functions.
     
  20. Apr 3, 2012 #19

    I like Serena

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    Which state functions do you mean?

    In thermodynamics you typically have a long list of relations and formulas.
    They can be derived from a very small set, but you have to be careful when to apply a formula and check if all conditions apply.

    As for the ideal gas relation, most real substances are not ideal gasses.
    And for real substances, you usually have to consult tables.
     
  21. Apr 3, 2012 #20

    fluidistic

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    The fundamental equation of a monoatomic ideal gas is given by [itex]S=\underbrace { \frac {5NR}{2}-N \left ( \frac {\mu }{T} \right ) _0}_{S_0}+NR \ln \left [ \left ( \frac {U}{U_0} \right ) ^{3/2} \left ( \frac{V}{V_0} \right ) \left ( \frac {N}{N_0} \right ) ^{-5/2} \right ][/itex].
    From my understanding this equation is equivalent to the Lagrangian in classical mechanics. In other words, with this equation alone, if one is given [itex]S_0[/itex] (initial conditions), one has all possible information (equation of motion in CM) about the monoatomic ideal gas.
    So from that equation, one has more or at least equally -not clear to me yet... :( - information than just the 2 equations of state: [itex]PV=NRT[/itex] and [itex]U=\frac{3NRT}{2}[/itex]. In theory, one needs 3 equations of states to get all the information of a thermodynamics system, whereas here 2 were enough to solve the problem.
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook




Similar Discussions: Thermodynamics, gas expansion
  1. Expansion of a gas (Replies: 12)

Loading...