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This almost makes me want to support Bush

  1. Jan 23, 2005 #1
    "We have declared a bitter war against the principle of democracy and all those who seek to enact it," a speaker identified as Zarqawi said in an audio tape on the Internet.


    Does anyone here support this Zarqawi fellow? What is his alternative to democracy, Islamic law? Ethnic cleansing of the "infidels"?

    Just for fun, let's say that I suddenly side with this guy, what do I do next?
  2. jcsd
  3. Jan 23, 2005 #2
    This Zarquawi guy is nonexistent boogeyman,created by US/Israel/UK spy agenciess.
  4. Jan 23, 2005 #3
    I'm not convinced.
  5. Jan 23, 2005 #4
    Zarkawi is just ghost!

    Iraqi resistance declared several times that they do not know Zarkawi .. so how we can be convinced that this man is exist, even if he exist .. He will be in isolated group. Do not forget that immediately after 11/9 , Pentagon established ‘’black propaganda department’’ to convince the public opinion by lies . For example, they talk about Iran-Alqaeda link, but every child in ME knows that Wahabi Muslims (OBL) hate Shia (Iran) more than USA for religious reasons.

    Bush do not fight Zarkawi and OBL, he is murdering innocent people.

    As I said before if .. KKK represents the American people then OBL and Zarkawi representing The Islamic world. Those people will never rule any place because nobody want them, thanks to CIA who gave them support in 80s and built for them many bases in Afghanistan.

    By the way, Islamic laws do not mean ethic cleansing!! There are many schools created in Islamic history, most of them are open minded -except the school of OBL and Taliban.

    There are Islamic party rule Turkey and Malaysia, did you hear about ethic cleansing! Both countries are the best economical and respect for human rights in the Islamic world.

    Last edited: Jan 23, 2005
  6. Jan 23, 2005 #5


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    Bilal, I agree with much of what your saying, but I think you're way out here:

    Turkey is definitly not a good example of a country respecting human rights. Just think about the Kurds...
  7. Jan 23, 2005 #6

    Exactly ! but we gonna have really hard time convincing Americans about it.
    They believe everything they hear or see on TV.They are adults but with brains of kids.
  8. Jan 23, 2005 #7
    Dear EL,

    This is also support my views.

    Compare Turkey under nationalism - secular rule in 80s with the current goverment of Turkey .

    Nationalist Turks, who created the problem of Kurds and Armenian, while the current government trying to improve their conditions. At least they let them now to speak Kurds in their schools and to have their own TV stations, which was impossible under nationalist-secular governments.

    Last edited: Jan 23, 2005
  9. Jan 23, 2005 #8
    Hell yeah you are going to have a hard time convincing me of something like this. By the way, I never ever watch television. I cannot stand commercials and so I just avoid it altogether and get my information elsewhere.

    Now as for the reason I will never believe this crazy idea is rather simple. If some part of the department of defense had established a propaganda machine to tell lies to the public don't you think it would have come out during the election? If Kerry could have pinned that one on the Bush administration he would have taken the election. Everything the Bush administration has done has been under the microscope of left wing media, especially since the start of the war with Iraq. There is no way this could have sliped through the cracks and yet some liberal yahoos from the internet managed to know it.

  10. Jan 23, 2005 #9
    Wow, that's interesting, they even called it the "black propaganda department" eh? Care to somehow back that up?

    Had you ever stopped to think that perhaps you're being influenced by your government and media in the same way that you claim the Americans are being influenced by their Government and Media? Perhaps America isn't as bad as you seem to think it is, but would you really know? Have you ever been to America, or have you only heard about it through your own media and government? There's no doubt that the American media is nationalistic, and there probabally is some government influence in it (since no one challenged the assertion that Iraq had WMD and all...), but why should there be any more doubt in your mind that your media and government are biased against America and want you to believe it's worse than it is, and all other sorts of lies?
  11. Jan 23, 2005 #10
    At least the idea existed in the Pentagon .They could deny it , but who knows??:


    Wednesday, 20 February, 2002, 18:14 GMT
    Pentagon plans propaganda war

    By Tom Carver
    Washington correspondent

    The Pentagon is toying with the idea of black propaganda.

    As part of George Bush's war on terrorism, the military is thinking of planting propaganda and misleading stories in the international media.

    A new department has been set up inside the Pentagon with the Orwellian title of the Office of Strategic Influence.

    It is well funded, is being run by a general and its aim is to influence public opinion abroad.

    Black and white

    It has been canvassing opinion within the Pentagon on what it should do.

    The options range from the standard public relations stuff - doing more to explain the Pentagon's role - to more underhand tactics such as e-mailing journalists and community leaders abroad with information that undermines governments hostile to the United States.

    These e-mails would come from a .com return address rather than .mil to hide the Pentagon's role.

    The most controversial suggestion is the covert planting of disinformation in foreign media, a process known as black propaganda.

    All this has sparked off a fierce debate within the Pentagon. The options range from "the blackest of black programmes to the whitest of white," one official told the New York Times.

    Some generals are worried that even a suggestion of disinformation would undermine the Pentagon's credibility and America's attempts to portray herself as the beacon of liberty and democratic values.

    Under review

    Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has asked a team of lawyers to check the proposals' legality.

    The Pentagon is forbidden from spreading black propaganda in the American media, but there is nothing to stop an American newspaper picking up a story carried abroad.

    The Pentagon is well versed in what it calls "psyops", dropping leaflets and using radio broadcasts to undermine enemy morale.

    But these kind of activities have always been confined to the battlefield, such as Afghanistan.

    Using covert tactics on media outlets of friendly countries is much more controversial.

  12. Jan 24, 2005 #11


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    I don't know how this can make you favor Bush's actions. Indeed, although of course Zarqawi's statements (whether he exists or not) are to be despised, who is responsible for the situation that made it such that a madman can make such a call in the media without immediately loosing all credibility and respect ? Who is responsible for such hate in the mind of people that such statements become acceptable ?
    If someone, before the invasion in Iraq, had made such a statement, inside or outside of Iraq, he would just be ridiculous. Now, suddenly, such a statement becomes defendable (at least, that's now the opinion of Zarqawi and his followers, otherwise they would not have made it). Who is responsable for that change of minds ? It must be a great politician and statesman who has enacted this :grumpy:
  13. Jan 24, 2005 #12
    I'm a Hindu and I lived in Malaysia in a vastly backward muslim dominated state of Kelantan. But you could not feel any difference. There are 2 temples in the city centre and few teples scattered wherever there is a sizable indian population in Kelantan. There has been no discrimination. May be the govt gives preference to Malays then Indians and then Chineese in Jobs and Education. But otherwise there is nothing. Many muslim polis regulate traffic during hindu festivals. Such a nice display of communal fraternity. But nothing is perfect and there may be some instances of over discrimination.
  14. Jan 24, 2005 #13


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    From everything I've heard, it seems unlikely that al-Zarqawi does not exist (e.g. it does seem that he was in prison in Jordan for several years in the 90's). However, it also seems unlikely that he has played the role in Iraq that is attributed to him by the U.S. and some Iraqis (and it's at least possible he's been dead for a while). The most sensible theory of al-Zarqawi that I've seen is that his name is being used as cover by Ba'athist remnants of the Mukhabarat (Saddam's intelligence service):
    The author of the linked piece was apparently a weapon's inspector in Iraq for several years which explains why he would have contacts in the Mukhabarat.

    It would be nice if there was something concrete to go on concerning Zarqawi though.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  15. Jan 24, 2005 #14


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    You do know that the terrorism in the Middle East predates the current war, right? It even predates 9/11...

    Here's a little bio (with pic): http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/terrorists/abu-musab-al-zarqawi/

    and another:

    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  16. Jan 24, 2005 #15
    Ansar AL Islam is Kurds group who close to ALqaeda (established in Dec. 2001). Their base exists in Bijara-Habjah (town which was attacked by chemical weapons), this means their base in ''protected Kurds zone-non flight zone'' and Saddam was not allowed to send his army there. The zone was protected by Anglo-American air force from 1991 till 2003.

    How you can blame Saddam for activities in Kurds area, which was protected by USA since 1991?!

    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  17. Jan 24, 2005 #16
    You can read also from the link you mentioned:

    ((After September 11
    After the September 11 attacks, Zarqawi again travelled to Afghanistan and was reportedly wounded in a U.S. bombardment. He moved to Iran to organize al-Tawhid, his former terrorist organization. Zarqawi then settled in the mostly-Kurdish regions of northern Iraq, where he joined the Islamist Ansar al-Islam group that fought against Kurdish-nationalist forces in the region. He reportedly became a leader in the group, although his leadership role has not been established. His followers claimed he was killed in a US bombing raid in the north of Iraq [11] (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4446084/).))


    ((About 70 US missiles are reported to have struck the belt of hill country close to the Iranian border that is controlled by the Ansar al-Islam.))

    ((Ansar al-Islam preaches a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war and controls about a dozen villages and a range of peaks between Kurdish-held territory and the Iranian border. ))

  18. Jan 24, 2005 #17
    Anything on that Black Pentagon Propaganda Department, yet?

    The credibility of your posts are lost with other posters when as soon as a claim is poked with a pin it crumbles to pieces.
  19. Jan 24, 2005 #18
    I'm sure that's his guilty pleasure :rolleyes: Saying things like this can make one lose credibility.

    Yes, I do thank OBL and the CIA for bringing down the Berlin wall. I don't like the idea of having a system trap its citizens inside its borders.

    But how can Islamic law be just when disagreement happens between an Muslim and a non-muslim? It's evident that the non-muslim are inherently second-class in such a system.

    No, I did not. It's simply the only conclusion I can draw from what hear from Al-Qeaeaeaeda. I honestly don't know what would make those guys happy. They condemn themselves to be eternally pissed.
  20. Jan 24, 2005 #19


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    So, Bilal, are you now admitting that he exists?
  21. Jan 24, 2005 #20
    Did I confirm he exists or not?

    Also you can read from the post again:

    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
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