FBI agent indicted for false statements and obstruction in Oregon standoff case

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In summary, the conversation touches on the ongoing armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Harney County, Oregon by Ammon Bundy and his followers. The federal government's ownership of land in the West, including Oregon, is discussed, as well as the conflicting opinions on who should have ownership of the land. The conversation also brings up the idea of returning the land to the Paiute tribe or other groups. The conversation ends with a discussion on the resentment and conflicts that arise from past injustices, but the importance of moving forward and not holding onto hate and racism.
  • #211
Astronuc said:
The folks who worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. If someone showed up at my place of work, with guns, and refused to leave, I'd consider that a threat. I believe it was an armed occupation.
Is it a threat if you are not there? The Refuge building was empty.

This bank in 2011 was very much occupied when protestors entered and refused to leave the lobby. Should they have been given six year sentences?
 
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  • #212
ba59196fee5cb609c85218533ecce309.jpg


This land was your land, but now it's MY land... from California to New York Island...
 
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  • #213
i live in Oregon and I followed the occupation closely for a while when it was ongoing, mostly from the internet.
The reports I liked the most were from a OregonLive site (which I think is from the Portland paper The Oregonian). NPR was pretty good too.
Both had many stories from local reporters at/near the site. I'm not so sure how many of the network reporters got out there that much (its pretty isolated).

Most locals get really tired of the occupiers. Seemed like they were trying to intimidate people and the locals weren't too happy. Not too surprising.

I was kind of surprised these guys got off, but they were trying to get them on conspiracy which I hear makes conviction more difficult and in some cases could be a stretch.

Comments I have been hearing most are:
- If they were not white guys, they would have been shot.
- What if the Indians at the pipeline conflict were heavily armed?
 
  • #214
BillTre said:
...
I was kind of surprised these guys got off
...
I listened to a podcast this morning: 'This Land Is Our Land' Ep. 11: Verdict [Oregon Public Broadcasting]

One of the people said that even the defense attorneys were surprised.

In other words, everyone was surprised.

One of the jurors has come forward, and explained the decision: Oregon standoff prosecutors failed to prove 'intent' to impede federal workers

Crossing my fingers, that things go better next year.

Nevada trial for Cliven Bundy, 18 others set for 2017
A federal magistrate judge in Las Vegas set a Feb. 6 trial date for rancher Cliven Bundy and 18 other defendants in an armed confrontation with government officers two years ago.​

It's hard to believe this all started 23 years ago. [ref]
 
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  • #215
I did not know it was that long ago.

All this cr%p because a greedy guy wanted to short everyone else on his grazing fees, using a rational of the land that was the Federal government's (from before the state existed) really belonged to the state government and everyone else wanted what they wanted.

Doesn't explain why they make a latrine in a bunch of Native American artifacts.
 
  • #217
Astronuc said:
Armed protesters who occupied Oregon refuge acquitted
https://www.yahoo.com/news/armed-protesters-occupied-oregon-refuge-acquitted-015842222.html

I can't tell if the jury was sympathetic to the protesters, or if the government presented the case poorly. Civil disobedience and exercising one's first amendment rights is one thing, but taking up weapons and threatening government employees is criminal and is not covered by the first amendment.
I was going to call it bizarre, but instead I'll just call it Portlandia.
 
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  • #218
mheslep said:
Is it a threat if you are not there? The Refuge building was empty.

This bank in 2011 was very much occupied when protestors entered and refused to leave the lobby. Should they have been given six year sentences?
I believe we totally covered this in the thread. You're missing a term in the left half of the second equation: It's:
occupation + guns* = armed invasion.

*including threats to use them.
[edit]
It is worth noting that one potential defendant who followed-through on the threat of violence was not tried on account of the fact that he was shot dead in his violent encounter with law enforcement.
 
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  • #219
russ_watters said:
I was going to call it bizarre, but instead I'll just call it Portlandia.

Conspiracy charges have the potential to be abused by the government so it looks like the jurors made a statement about that here. Because of the not guilty of conspiracy to impede employees verdict the weapons charges were dismissed because they were tied to the act of conspiracy per the feds charges.
 
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  • #220
BillTre said:
I was kind of surprised these guys got off, but they were trying to get them on conspiracy which I hear makes conviction more difficult and in some cases could be a stretch.
Agreed. Trespassing federal property should have been the charge.

...Comments I have been hearing most are:
- If they were not white guys, they would have been shot.
...

Which to me is an offensive comment.

Finicum was shot dead by the FBI. Edit: by OSP with FBI agents present.
 
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  • #221
mheslep said:
...
Bizarre. Finicum was shot dead by the FBI.

He was shot dead by Oregon State Police Officers.

After fleeing the officers, Finicum was stopped by a roadblock, where he challenged officers to shoot him. He was shot and killed by state troopers ​
 
  • #222
OmCheeto said:
He was shot dead by Oregon State Police Officers.

After fleeing the officers, Finicum was stopped by a roadblock, where he challenged officers to shoot him. He was shot and killed by state troopers ​
Yes, your'e right, shot and and killed by Oregon state troopers after fleeing a road block manned by both OSP and FBI agents.
 
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  • #223
I read in the paper today that one of the surprised defense lawyers said his client was arrested for stealing a government truck while he was driving it around one of the towns in the area and he was acquitted.
 
  • #224
mheslep said:
Yes, your'e right, shot and and killed by Oregon State Troopers after fleeing a road block manned by both OSP and FBI agents.
I would be SERIOUSLY off topic, if I were to go into why, I was happy to see the FBI involved in this.

As a reminder, the county that this happened in, is larger than 9 states. [ref]
And, I'm pretty sure, somewhere in this thread, I pointed out that there were only 3 local law enforcement officers, to deal with the situation.
 
  • #225
BillTre said:
I read in the paper today that one of the surprised defense lawyers said his client was arrested for stealing a government truck while he was driving it around one of the towns in the area and he was acquitted.

My only guess on that one, being a not-a-lawyer, is... :oldconfused:

Ok. Even if I were a lawyer, I would be confused.

Having not sat in on the trial, I can only repeat what Billy said, some several hundred years ago; "Let's kill all the [unscrupulous] lawyers"
 
  • #226
OmCheeto said:
Having not sat in on the trial, I can only repeat what Billy said, some several hundred years ago; "Let's kill all the [unscrupulous] lawyers"

When you're guilty that's the sort of lawyer you want. :biggrin:
 
  • #227
OmCheeto said:
He was shot dead by Oregon State Police Officers.

After fleeing the officers, Finicum was stopped by a roadblock, where he challenged officers to shoot him. He was shot and killed by state troopers ​

As I recall, he sounded like a case of suicide by cop.
 
  • #228
OmCheeto said:
Having not sat in on the trial, I can only repeat what Billy said, some several hundred years ago; "Let's kill all the [unscrupulous] lawyers"

Even more to the point, since this is about who owns the land, "Billy" in his 13th Sonnet wrote:

“You are no longer yours, than you your self here live”
 
  • #229
BillTre said:
As I recall, he sounded like a case of suicide by cop.

Videos are all over the internet.
here's one from CBS


Suicide or bad judgement. Looks like he exited truck with hands up but got defiant.

Another video from inside his vehicle .


When you taunt men with guns you just might get shot.
I think had he made some submissive gesture and surrendered he'd only have got arrested.

old jim
 
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  • #230

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