Those Godless Communists

[BoulderHead]

Wasn't the talk usually centered around fighting communism?
I have a sneaky suspicion that for a great many people the true enemy was Atheism.


Let's talk about it...

 

[Zero]

Well, let's think about it. What did average people know about communism, besides the fact that it was godless? You couldn't really scare people in a post-WWII America with the idea that Soviets sacrificed individual profit for societal gains, since that is exactly what Americans did during the war.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Since I don't know much about history I need some information.

What communist leaders were surely atheists?

And also, just because they were atheists is why we actually went to war. So what specifically did they do that we declared war for?

 

[enigma]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Since I don't know much about history I need some information.

What communist leaders were surely atheists?

I'm not sure about that...

I'd guess Lenin, Stalin, etc.

The rules over there stated that you had to be atheist by law (or at least organized religion was outlawed), so if someone wasn't an atheist, you didn't talk about it.

And also, just because they were atheists is why we actually went to war. So what specifically did they do that we declared war for? [/B]

Uh. We never declared war with the Soviets.

 

[jb]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist

And also, just because they were atheists is why we actually went to war. So what specifically did they do that we declared war for?

we never declared war with the ussr...

 

[Eh]

The US never actually went to war with the Soviets, only minor communist nations at the time. The issue in Korea and Vietnam was preventing the spread of communism, which the US viewed as being a threat to their own capitalist system. If those nations had been godless atheists who happened to be capitalists, the wars would have never been fought. Nor would the cold war have occured had Russia been an empire with a capitalist system.

As for atheist leaders, Stalin and Pot are usually are usually cited as the most noticeable. But you could probably assume the same for other communist leaders, especially in the Soviet Union. It was not just a system where religion was lacking, but state atheism was imposed.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Wasn't the talk usually centered around fighting communism?
I have a sneaky suspicion that for a great many people the true enemy was Atheism.


Let's talk about it...

From the 82nd congress, 2nd session:

"At this moment of our history the principles underlying our American Government and the American way of life are under attack by a system whose philosophy is at direct odds with our own. Our American Government is founded on the concept of the individuality and the dignity of the human being. Underlying this concept is the belief that the human person is important because he was created by God and endowed by Him with certain inalienable rights which no civil authority may usurp. The inclusion of God in our pledge therefore would further acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon the moral directions of the Creator. At the same time it would serve to deny the atheistic and materialistic concepts of communism with its attendant subservience of the individual."

That was in 1954, in 1955 "in god we trust" was required for all united states national currency, and in 1956 "in God we trust" was declared our national motto.


It appears that it was aimed at avoiding, among other things, subservience of the Individual..haha..the irony eh?

 

[Zero]

The lore i think about it, the more I believe that teh Cold War had to be sold as a religious war. Nothing else would have convinced people to care.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

I knew we didn't go to war with soviets. That's why I don't understand what communists we were fighting?

Also - man if atheism was required, boy I'd move there in a heart bit.

Anyone know any atheist-run countries that are alive today? I'll get a plane ticket today!

 

[kat]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist


Also - man if atheism was required, boy I'd move there in a heart bit.

Anyone know any atheist-run countries that are alive today? I'll get a plane ticket today!

China, Cuba, and North Korea. Bye!

 

[Eh]

Uh yeah, you might want to consider the "other stuff" about communism.

 

[drag]

Eh, Pot ?

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Originally posted by drag
Eh, Pot ?

Drag smokes marijuana? Uh oh - better call the FUZZ!

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by kat
From the 82nd congress, 2nd session:

"At this moment of our history the principles underlying our American Government and the American way of life are under attack by a system whose philosophy is at direct odds with our own. Our American Government is founded on the concept of the individuality and the dignity of the human being. Underlying this concept is the belief that the human person is important because he was created by God and endowed by Him with certain inalienable rights which no civil authority may usurp. The inclusion of God in our pledge therefore would further acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon the moral directions of the Creator. At the same time it would serve to deny the atheistic and materialistic concepts of communism with its attendant subservience of the individual."

That was in 1954, in 1955 "in god we trust" was required for all united states national currency, and in 1956 "in God we trust" was declared our national motto.


It appears that it was aimed at avoiding, among other things, subservience of the Individual..haha..the irony eh?

Wow, talk about a blast from the past! Where's a non-subservient type person supposed to turn for help now.

China, Cuba, and North Korea. Bye!

Originally posted by Zero;
The lore i think about it, the more I believe that teh Cold War had to be sold as a religious war. Nothing else would have convinced people to care.

Yeah, they sure put god to good use back in the mid fifties.

Originally posted by Eh;
If those nations had been godless atheists who happened to be capitalists, the wars would have never been fought. Nor would the cold war have occured had Russia been an empire with a capitalist system.

That's what I'm doubting, actually. Try to imagine the installation of a not-to-friendly capitalist empire that had the audacity to be Atheists... I think a lot of people would have either been worried, or easily made that way.

 

[Eh]

I doubt it, since money has more influence than religion ever will. The US government couldn't care less about an atheistic country, since they wouldn't poss a threat to the capitalist system. But if there was ever such a thing as religious communism, the US would likely still see it as a threat.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Originally posted by Eh
I doubt it, since money has more influence than religion ever will. The US government couldn't care less about an atheistic country, since they wouldn't poss a threat to the capitalist system. But if there was ever such a thing as religious communism, the US would likely still see it as a threat.

I agree. I still don't understand why communists are enemies?

What is wrong about communism? Isn't it just that it turns into a dictatorship?

 

[Nicool003]

Actually the first statement there was historically incorrect. You said that you thought the true enemy was atheism BH, yet although communism was wrong they did allow religion but only their religion meaning all the other religions were persecuted so although communism is wrong, it wasnt a war against atheism.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Actually the first statement there was historically incorrect. You said that you thought the true enemy was atheism BH, yet although communism was wrong they did allow religion but only their religion meaning all the other religions were persecuted so although communism is wrong, it wasnt a war against atheism.

And which religion did an atheist country have? That's an oxymoron, isn't it?

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Originally posted by Nicool003
...communism is wrong...

Did church teach you that?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Did church teach you that?

Probably not, since the Bible teaches that the rich should give away all their possesions to the poor, until everyone has teh same amount...

 

[Astronomer107]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
I agree. I still don't understand why communists are enemies?

What is wrong about communism? Isn't it just that it turns into a dictatorship?

Communism actually had very positive roots when Karl Marx first began his ideas of socalism. The ideas seemed to be able to faciliate society when they were conceived; however, when a leader is placed into this position, he or SHE can do anything she wants, limiting freedom.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Astronomer107
Communism actually had very positive roots when Karl Marx first began his ideas of socalism. The ideas seemed to be able to faciliate society when they were conceived; however, when a leader is placed into this position, he or SHE can do anything she wants, limiting freedom.

So, in other words...there is nothing inherently evil about communism, except when it is twisted by evil dictators? I can buy that.

 

[damgo]

Well, as communism calls for the abolishment of private property, people with property weren't too happy with it. There's also the fact that communist (actually socialist) economies don't work well and tend to make everyone poor; reason not to want it in your country. And many people object that if they work hard to accomplish something, under communism it will mostly just be taken away and given to people who's been slacking off or don't deserve it.

But mainly it's the atmosphere of revolution and polarization that Communism grew out of; ever since the French Revolution there has been an often-violent tension between traditionalists and revolutionaries...

 

[FZ+]

There's also the fact that communist (actually socialist) economies don't work well and tend to make everyone poor; reason not to want it in your country.

Well... technically no. Most of the big communist countries you see (USSR, China) were initially very backward countries, which after conversion to communism quickly underwent an industrial revolution, and ended up as superpowers. Whether this is to do with the communist part, or merely the ruthless dictatorship part is questionable though. But in terms of general advancement, and sometimes even on the personal level, communism economies don't work that badly.

And argueably, it was socialist economic policies that pulled the US, and with it the rest of the world, from the great depression of 1930.

 

[Eh]

But even in countries like the Soviet Union and China, the standard of living is very poor for the average individual. When the Soviet empire collapsed, the average citizen was living paycheck to paycheck, with shortages of food and of course had very little luxuries. The communist system has always been a failure, and that seems to be a problem with the very design of system rather than a leadership.