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Thru the eyes of a marine - seeing the truth.

  1. Apr 29, 2004 #1
    Thru the eyes of a Iraqi - seeing the truth.

    An Iraqi policeman during antiterrorism protests:

    "Terrorism is humanity's shame"

    "Our People are for the reconstruction"

    "To bribed Arab stations:Killing Iraqis and destroying their civil facilities is NOT resistance"

    "This is not resistance"

    Playing pool
    http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/la 006.jpg

    Internet cafe
    http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/pic 002.jpg

    Women's group sit in - calling for equal rights

    These are the pictures we don't see on TV.
    If the NY times can even be trusted anymore, this simply backs up these pictures even further


    Iraq will be made whole, despite what the naysayers claim!
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2004
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 29, 2004 #2
    Why does the title say Marine???
  4. Apr 29, 2004 #3


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    Bollocks phatmonkey; it's not healthy to build your own fantasy view of Iraq and re-inforce it by selectively looking at the evidence. Yes there is some pro-American sentiment in Iraq and it's likely that Ba'athists have been behind some of the insurgency there, BUT that pro-American sentiment is rapidly in decline currently and anti-American sentiment and miltantism is on the up AND it is highly unlikely that Ba'athists are behind more than a handful of attacks.

    The realties in Iraq can't be dealt with by people who refuse to face those realities.
  5. Apr 29, 2004 #4
    There are an estimated 1500 insurgents in the middle of a Sunni populated city that, before the war, was kept in Saddam's pocket.

    The fact is that if the majority of Iraqis wanted us gone, we'd be forced out, and would be gone now. It takes nothing more than a shiite cleric to wave his hand and it is done.

    Increased fighting in Falluja means nothing if that NYtimes article is right.

    It took 3 years to prepare S Korea for elections. There were insurgencies then. There were protests. Iraq will have elections in January - half the time it took to get S Korea to that point.

    Again, Iraq will be made whole, despite the naysayers!
  6. Apr 29, 2004 #5


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    In a recent poll (actuall it was done just before the recent upsurge in violence) 57% of Iraqis wanted the US to leave the country immediately.

    There has been a country wide upsurge in violence, the most notable developmnet is that it has come out of the Sunni triangle and into the Shi'ite areas.

    Things in Iraq are less than rosey, howver you want to read it, you have to admit that.

    Yes insurgency, particularly the methods used by insurgents, has yet to find broad-based support in the country as a whole (though 52% of Iraqis think that violence agianst US forces is justified some or all of the time), but Insurgency and the upsurge of insurgency are major problems in Iraq for the US and the burying of heads in sand doesn't help this one iota.
  7. Apr 29, 2004 #6

    Link to this poll?
  8. Apr 29, 2004 #7


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  9. Apr 29, 2004 #8
    I'm hardly burying my head in the sand. If the other threads in this forum, that title themselves "the truth" are to be held valid, then this one is just as valid ;)
  10. Apr 29, 2004 #9


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    There's something that's been bothering me about this poll. Apparently, if I understood correctly, the poll takers were the same poll takers that were used by Saddam's Ba'athist government.
  11. Apr 30, 2004 #10
    Thank you.
  12. Apr 30, 2004 #11
    A riddle for Jcsd:
    Imagine yourself an innocent Iraqi farmerboy, and an American roadblock is set out in front of his house. Terrorists/insurgents have been bombing these roadblocks for months, killing many civilians and a few Americans. Why would the Iraqi boy want the Americans gone?
  13. Apr 30, 2004 #12


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    What I find most dangerous is that most Iraqis are not enthusiastic about taking matters into their own hands. A peaceful demonstration of 500,000 Iraqis demanding pretty much anything would be reassuring. The situation in Iraq is sadly reminiscent of Russia in 1917. Kerenski's representitive government generated no enthusiasm. Lenin essentially conquered Russia with about 5000 men. Iraq is much smaller and less populous. A charismatic leader could seize power with a very small following.

    Sadr has been dismissed as an irritant because he only has about 1300-1700 well armed men. That's more than enough.

  14. Apr 30, 2004 #13
    I agree. To a point, it seems that some Iraqis are simply trying to show how nationalistic they are. They want to have some sort of hand in their country being their's, but aren't so sure what to do to be part of it besides "fighting the invaders"
  15. Apr 30, 2004 #14


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    What I find disturbing is the way that some sections of American soceity are willing to take in, unquestioningly, any tripe that is fed to them. Just be objective, because just as naysaying can be damaging, pretending everything is rosey can be just as damaging.

    Yes, because gallup and CNN are Ba'athists. :rolleyes: (don't bother to answer that)

    Studentx do you realize that you are commiting the cardinal sin using anecdotal evidence to refute statiscal evidence, made all the worse by the fact that anecdotal evidence is hypothetical anyway! Unless your saying that 57% of Iraqis are farmboys with American roadblocks outside there house.

    It's almost impossible to gauge pre-war Iraqi support for US miltary action, but I think it's fair to say that just after the fall of Hussein there was popular support, howvere that popular support has been eroded to a minority and is contiuning to erode at an increasing rate.

    Iraq has the potential at least to become a quagmire and ignoring the problems in the country is the sure-fire to realizing that potential.
  16. Apr 30, 2004 #15


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    As Paul Krugman wrote in todays NY Times article on the op-ed page, George Orwells 1946 essay titled " In front of your nose " points out that certain people will believe the - in this case - hype until reality bumps into them and I think even then they will stay on that river in Egypt.
  17. Apr 30, 2004 #16


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    First and foremost, does anyone else see the irony in inherrent an Iraqi opinion poll?

    For the poll itself:
    The possible answers are lopsided. What if the choices were 'attacks are always justified' and 'attacks are justified some or none of the time'? The poll needs to have 3 choices.

    The results regarding the 'are you better off questions' contradict each other. This isn't surprising: its human nature to put more emphasis on the here and now.

    This one is extrememly important and encouraging:
    While Iraqi police have been a prime target, this shows the vast majority of Iraqis are against that: and that means against the "insurgents."

    Incidentally, jscd, that's the one that phat's links are relevant to. No, it isn't "bollocks."

    This one, I always get a kick out of:
    Is an orange a fruit or is it orange?

    This one is also pretty important:
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2004
  18. Apr 30, 2004 #17


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    A little more on this:
    As Adam would point out if he didn't share your distorted view, this is a straw-man. I didn't click all of phat's links (sorry, phat), but the ones I did were all about Iraqis protesting the "insurgents." They had nothing at all to do with the US, pro or against.
    Well put.
  19. Apr 30, 2004 #18
    But they can be dealt with by bombing the cities and shooting lots of people, right?
  20. Apr 30, 2004 #19


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    Didn't I say that the insurgents particularly there methods were yet to find broad-based support or did I halluncinate writing that particular post?

    Yes most Iraqis do think the invasion was for the best, but that's rtaher irrelvant in this context as the actual invasion (which I did support, albeit with strong resevrvations) is not what's being discussed.

    The problem is that things in Iraq are getting worse, the US no longer has popular support, support for insurgency is increasing. The situation is not a full-blown crisis but the one thing we shouldn't do is ignore these problems.

    The poll itself was conducted by Gallup, probably the most respected polling organistaion in the world. I imagine the poll did give three chioces, but it is CNN who have choosen to display the results in that way.

    My main objection is to the use of these images to paint a false picture in order to fit someones own worldview.
  21. Apr 30, 2004 #20


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    No, a pargamtic vioew must be taken. The main concerns of the Iraqis must be mollified; for example broader powers for the interim government. Also oversights such as the fact that the US army unlike it's coaliton counterparts has absolutely no training whatsover to occupy a country as all it's traing is combat-based.
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