Thru the eyes of a marine - seeing the truth.

[member 5645]

Thru the eyes of a Iraqi - seeing the truth.

An Iraqi policeman during antiterrorism protests:
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/02.jpg


"Terrorism is humanity's shame"
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/04.jpg

"Our People are for the reconstruction"
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/19.jpg


"To bribed Arab stations:Killing Iraqis and destroying their civil facilities is NOT resistance"
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/70.JPG

"This is not resistance"
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/35.JPG

Playing pool
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/la 006.jpg

Internet cafe
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/pic 002.jpg


Women's group sit in - calling for equal rights
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/18feb.html



These are the pictures we don't see on TV.
If the NY times can even be trusted anymore, this simply backs up these pictures even further

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/p...000&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=

Iraq will be made whole, despite what the naysayers claim!

 

[member 5645]

Why does the title say Marine?

 

[jcsd]

Bollocks phatmonkey; it's not healthy to build your own fantasy view of Iraq and re-inforce it by selectively looking at the evidence. Yes there is some pro-American sentiment in Iraq and it's likely that Ba'athists have been behind some of the insurgency there, BUT that pro-American sentiment is rapidly in decline currently and anti-American sentiment and miltantism is on the up AND it is highly unlikely that Ba'athists are behind more than a handful of attacks.

The realties in Iraq can't be dealt with by people who refuse to face those realities.

 

[member 5645]

Bollocks phatmonkey; it's not healthy to build your own fantasy view of Iraq and re-inforce it by selectively looking at the evidence. Yes there is some pro-American sentiment in Iraq and it's likely that Ba'athists have been behind some of the insurgency there, BUT that pro-American sentiment is rapidly in decline currently and anti-American sentiment and miltantism is on the up AND it is highly unlikely that Ba'athists are behind more than a handful of attacks.

The realties in Iraq can't be dealt with by people who refuse to face those realities.

There are an estimated 1500 insurgents in the middle of a Sunni populated city that, before the war, was kept in Saddam's pocket.

The fact is that if the majority of Iraqis wanted us gone, we'd be forced out, and would be gone now. It takes nothing more than a shiite cleric to wave his hand and it is done.

Increased fighting in Falluja means nothing if that NYtimes article is right.

It took 3 years to prepare S Korea for elections. There were insurgencies then. There were protests. Iraq will have elections in January - half the time it took to get S Korea to that point.

Again, Iraq will be made whole, despite the naysayers!

 

[jcsd]

In a recent poll (actuall it was done just before the recent upsurge in violence) 57% of Iraqis wanted the US to leave the country immediately.

There has been a country wide upsurge in violence, the most notable developmnet is that it has come out of the Sunni triangle and into the Shi'ite areas.

Things in Iraq are less than rosey, howver you want to read it, you have to admit that.

Yes insurgency, particularly the methods used by insurgents, has yet to find broad-based support in the country as a whole (though 52% of Iraqis think that violence agianst US forces is justified some or all of the time), but Insurgency and the upsurge of insurgency are major problems in Iraq for the US and the burying of heads in sand doesn't help this one iota.

 

[member 5645]

In a recent poll (actuall it was done just before the recent upsurge in violence) 57% of Iraqis wanted the US to leave the country immediately.

There has been a country wide upsurge in violence, the most notable developmnet is that it has come out of the Sunni triangle and into the Shi'ite areas.

Things in Iraq are less than rosey, howver you want to read it, you have to admit that.

Yes insurgency, particularly the methods used by insurgents, has yet to find broad-based support in the country as a whole (though 52% of Iraqis think that violence agianst US forces is justified some or all of the time), but Insurgency and the upsurge of insurgency are major problems in Iraq for the US and the burying of heads in sand doesn't help this one iota.

Link to this poll?

 

[jcsd]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/28/iraq.poll/

 

[member 5645]

burying of heads in sand doesn't help this one iota.

I'm hardly burying my head in the sand. If the other threads in this forum, that title themselves "the truth" are to be held valid, then this one is just as valid ;)

 

[kat]

There's something that's been bothering me about this poll. Apparently, if I understood correctly, the poll takers were the same poll takers that were used by Saddam's Ba'athist government.

 

[hughes johnson]

phatmonky,
Thank you.

 

[studentx]

A riddle for Jcsd:
Imagine yourself an innocent Iraqi farmerboy, and an American roadblock is set out in front of his house. Terrorists/insurgents have been bombing these roadblocks for months, killing many civilians and a few Americans. Why would the Iraqi boy want the Americans gone?

 

[Njorl]

What I find most dangerous is that most Iraqis are not enthusiastic about taking matters into their own hands. A peaceful demonstration of 500,000 Iraqis demanding pretty much anything would be reassuring. The situation in Iraq is sadly reminiscent of Russia in 1917. Kerenski's representitive government generated no enthusiasm. Lenin essentially conquered Russia with about 5000 men. Iraq is much smaller and less populous. A charismatic leader could seize power with a very small following.

Sadr has been dismissed as an irritant because he only has about 1300-1700 well armed men. That's more than enough.

Njorl

 

[member 5645]

What I find most dangerous is that most Iraqis are not enthusiastic about taking matters into their own hands. A peaceful demonstration of 500,000 Iraqis demanding pretty much anything would be reassuring. The situation in Iraq is sadly reminiscent of Russia in 1917. Kerenski's representitive government generated no enthusiasm. Lenin essentially conquered Russia with about 5000 men. Iraq is much smaller and less populous. A charismatic leader could seize power with a very small following.

Sadr has been dismissed as an irritant because he only has about 1300-1700 well armed men. That's more than enough.

Njorl

I agree. To a point, it seems that some Iraqis are simply trying to show how nationalistic they are. They want to have some sort of hand in their country being their's, but aren't so sure what to do to be part of it besides "fighting the invaders"

 

[jcsd]

I'm hardly burying my head in the sand. If the other threads in this forum, that title themselves "the truth" are to be held valid, then this one is just as valid ;)

What I find disturbing is the way that some sections of American soceity are willing to take in, unquestioningly, any tripe that is fed to them. Just be objective, because just as naysaying can be damaging, pretending everything is rosey can be just as damaging.

There's something that's been bothering me about this poll. Apparently, if I understood correctly, the poll takers were the same poll takers that were used by Saddam's Ba'athist government.

Yes, because gallup and CNN are Ba'athists. (don't bother to answer that)

A riddle for Jcsd:
Imagine yourself an innocent Iraqi farmerboy, and an American roadblock is set out in front of his house. Terrorists/insurgents have been bombing these roadblocks for months, killing many civilians and a few Americans. Why would the Iraqi boy want the Americans gone?

Studentx do you realize that you are commiting the cardinal sin using anecdotal evidence to refute statiscal evidence, made all the worse by the fact that anecdotal evidence is hypothetical anyway! Unless your saying that 57% of Iraqis are farmboys with American roadblocks outside there house.

It's almost impossible to gauge pre-war Iraqi support for US miltary action, but I think it's fair to say that just after the fall of Hussein there was popular support, howvere that popular support has been eroded to a minority and is contiuning to erode at an increasing rate.

Iraq has the potential at least to become a quagmire and ignoring the problems in the country is the sure-fire to realizing that potential.

 

[amp]

As Paul Krugman wrote in todays NY Times article on the op-ed page, George Orwells 1946 essay titled " In front of your nose " points out that certain people will believe the - in this case - hype until reality bumps into them and I think even then they will stay on that river in Egypt.

 

[russ_watters]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/28/iraq.poll/

First and foremost, does anyone else see the irony in inherrent an Iraqi opinion poll?

For the poll itself:

Nearly half -- 47 percent -- said they believed attacks against U.S. forces in Iraq could not be justified, while 52 percent said those attacks could be justified some or all of the time.

The possible answers are lopsided. What if the choices were 'attacks are always justified' and 'attacks are justified some or none of the time'? The poll needs to have 3 choices.

The results regarding the 'are you better off questions' contradict each other. This isn't surprising: its human nature to put more emphasis on the here and now.

This one is extrememly important and encouraging:

Those polled were virtually united in opposition to attacks against Iraqi police, the survey found. Ninety-two percent said those attacks could not be justified.

While Iraqi police have been a prime target, this shows the vast majority of Iraqis are against that: and that means against the "insurgents."

Incidentally, jscd, that's the one that phat's links are relevant to. No, it isn't "bollocks."

This one, I always get a kick out of:

Seventy-one percent surveyed said they saw troops mostly as occupiers, while 19 percent said they viewed them as liberators.

Is an orange a fruit or is it orange?

This one is also pretty important:

But asked, "Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the U.S.-Britain invasion, do you personally think that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not?" Sixty-one percent said it was worth it. Twenty-eight percent said it was not, while 9 percent said they were not sure.

 

[russ_watters]

A little more on this:

Bollocks phatmonkey; it's not healthy to build your own fantasy view of Iraq and re-inforce it by selectively looking at the evidence. Yes there is some pro-American sentiment in Iraq and it's likely that Ba'athists have been behind some of the insurgency there, BUT that pro-American sentiment is rapidly in decline currently and anti-American sentiment and miltantism is on the up AND it is highly unlikely that Ba'athists are behind more than a handful of attacks.

As Adam would point out if he didn't share your distorted view, this is a straw-man. I didn't click all of phat's links (sorry, phat), but the ones I did were all about Iraqis protesting the "insurgents." They had nothing at all to do with the US, pro or against.

The realties in Iraq can't be dealt with by people who refuse to face those realities.

Well put.

 

[Adam]

The realties in Iraq can't be dealt with by people who refuse to face those realities.

But they can be dealt with by bombing the cities and shooting lots of people, right?

 

[jcsd]

First and foremost, does anyone else see the irony in inherrent an Iraqi opinion poll?

For the poll itself: The possible answers are lopsided. What if the choices were 'attacks are always justified' and 'attacks are justified some or none of the time'? The poll needs to have 3 choices.

The results regarding the 'are you better off questions' contradict each other. This isn't surprising: its human nature to put more emphasis on the here and now.

This one is extrememly important and encouraging: While Iraqi police have been a prime target, this shows the vast majority of Iraqis are against that: and that means against the "insurgents."

Incidentally, jscd, that's the one that phat's links are relevant to. No, it isn't "bollocks."

This one, I always get a kick out of: Is an orange a fruit or is it orange?

This one is also pretty important:

Didn't I say that the insurgents particularly there methods were yet to find broad-based support or did I halluncinate writing that particular post?

Yes most Iraqis do think the invasion was for the best, but that's rtaher irrelvant in this context as the actual invasion (which I did support, albeit with strong resevrvations) is not what's being discussed.

The problem is that things in Iraq are getting worse, the US no longer has popular support, support for insurgency is increasing. The situation is not a full-blown crisis but the one thing we shouldn't do is ignore these problems.

The poll itself was conducted by Gallup, probably the most respected polling organistaion in the world. I imagine the poll did give three chioces, but it is CNN who have choosen to display the results in that way.

My main objection is to the use of these images to paint a false picture in order to fit someones own worldview.

 

[jcsd]

But they can be dealt with by bombing the cities and shooting lots of people, right?

No, a pargamtic vioew must be taken. The main concerns of the Iraqis must be mollified; for example broader powers for the interim government. Also oversights such as the fact that the US army unlike it's coaliton counterparts has absolutely no training whatsover to occupy a country as all it's traing is combat-based.

 

[jcsd]

As an addedum : russ the full poll findings are linked to on that page there were actually 5 different possible responses to that question.

 

[Njorl]

This link might go to pdf of full poll data

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/28/iraq.poll/iraq.poll.4.28.pdf

 

[russ_watters]

Didn't I say that the insurgents particularly there methods were yet to find broad-based support or did I halluncinate writing that particular post?

That's kinda the point of the thread. If you agree, why did you post all that other stuff...?

Yes most Iraqis do think the invasion was for the best, but that's rtaher irrelvant in this context as the actual invasion (which I did support, albeit with strong resevrvations) is not what's being discussed.

...Oh, ok. Now I see (well - I saw before), your point here is to hijack the thread.

My main objection is to the use of these images to paint a false picture in order to fit someones own worldview.

My main objection to the use of that poll is to paint a false picture in order to fit someone's own worldview.

 

[jcsd]

Becasue the situation is worsening and insurgents are gaining more support, most worringly in Shi'ite areas which had formerly opposed insurgency.

The poll was specifically used to show that most Iraqis do want the US out, now I fdon't thik it is necesscarily the best idea for the US to get out, but the US needs to take this into consideration and ask itself "what are we doing wrong?".

 

[kat]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-poll-side_x.htm

Iraq had the most comprehensive census database in the Arab world," Fakhreddine says. "In 12 years of working in poll research, I've never seen data so meticulously collected."

Fakhreddine's first task was to find Iraqis experienced in fieldwork.

It may not have an effect on answers or it might, much depends on the fear and/or trust the Iraqi's have in the pollsters who are asking the questions. Although it is a Gallup poll it was the "Pan Arab Research Center" who administered it.

 

[russ_watters]

Becasue the situation is worsening and insurgents are gaining more support, most worringly in Shi'ite areas which had formerly opposed insurgency.

Neither the anectodatal evidence phat linked, nor your poll support that statement. 92% is virtually everyone.

The poll was specifically used to show that most Iraqis do want the US out...

On that issue - which is off topic - the poll showed mixed and contradictory results.

Again, the purpose of this thread (if I may, phat) is simply to show that the population does not support the insurgency. They don't. You are trying to shift it to a conversation about the opinions of the Iraqis about the US. Not the same thing at all.

 

[jcsd]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-poll-side_x.htm



It may not have an effect on answers or it might, much depends on the fear and/or trust the Iraqi's have in the pollsters who are asking the questions. Although it is a Gallup poll it was the "Pan Arab Research Center" who administered it.

As you can see the Pan Arab Research Centre isn't an Iraqi organistaion, so far the only reason I can see why you are objecting to it is becasue the pollsters were Arabs.

Russ:
The Poll shows that most Iraqis believe the situation is worsening and that was before the recent spate of violence and you'd have to of had your had buried in the sand not to notice the recne tspread of violence particulary to areas like Najaf which was formerly controlled by a moderate Muslim Cleric.

 

[russ_watters]

As you can see the Pan Arab Research Centre isn't an Iraqi organistaion, so far the only reason I can see why you are objecting to it is becasue the pollsters were Arabs.

... which may or may not matter. Its certanly something to consider.

Russ:
The Poll shows that most Iraqis believe the situation is worsening and that was before the recent spate of violence and you'd have to of had your had buried in the sand not to notice the recne tspread of violence particulary to areas like Najaf which was formerly controlled by a moderate Muslim Cleric.

I never mentioned the recent increase in violence and it has nothing to do with this thread.

And does the poll show that? I'm not seeing it. In any case - that still has nothing to do with this thread. You want so desperately to make this about the US. It isn't. Its about Iraq and Iraqis and what they are doing to each other.

 

[jcsd]

No, I'm saying that the real situation in Iraq, which includes some pretty alarming trends, must be recognized.

 

[studentx]

But why is the situation worsening...

If you look back at the past 6 months , at all the incidents and bombings, how many of those were started by Americans?
When you read in the paper that 280 Iraqis , the UN and a dozen Iraqi police stations are blown up killing 0 Americans, do you think to yourself "Iraq is a mess. Damn that Bush"?

According to you Jcsd, what are the Americans doing wrong to cause these bombings?

 

[jcsd]

But why is the situation worsening...

If you look back at the past 6 months , at all the incidents and bombings, how many of those were started by Americans?
When you read in the paper that 280 Iraqis , the UN and a dozen Iraqi police stations are blown up killing 0 Americans, do you think to yourself "Iraq is a mess. Damn that Bush"?

According to you Jcsd, what are the Americans doing wrong to cause these bombings?

I don't think I've blamed the US at all (though I did mention that US forces simply aren't trained for this kind of undertaking which I feel is a major oversight in US miltary training in general, howvere this would be little more than a periphal contributer to the current situation), what I have siad is that prenetmding that the situation is improving and that re-construction is going well is one of the worst things that can be done at the moment.

 

[studentx]

Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd?

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?

 

[Zero]

Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd?

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?

On the other hand, wouldn't it be comforting to know that the people in charge are facing the trouble head-on, instead of concerning themselves with keeping up a happy facade? From my personal experience, there is nothing worse than someone playing their fiddle while Rome is burning...not only can you see things are bad, but you have zero confidence that the people in charge are capable of doing ANYTHING to fix it.

I much prefer a "hey, things aren't going as planned, but I'm confident that we can adjust strategy and come out ahead", than someone claiming to "stay the course" when the course isn't working.

 

[jcsd]

Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd?

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?

No what I'm saying is ignoring the problem won't make it go away, so rather than trumpeting how everything's A-OK people shold be looking at the situation with a pragmatic mindset.

 

[Zero]

No what I'm saying is ignoring the problem won't make it go away, so rather than trumpeting how everything's A-OK people shold be looking at the situation with a pragmatic mindset.

And pragmatic doesn't mean panicking...it just means saying "look, this is a place where we can show some improvement, the initial plan was based on events that didn't pan out, so we're going to change things to suit reality."

This should really be no big deal... plans become obsolete the moment reality kicks in, there is no shame in adimtting this fact and moving on. Flexibility is as much of a positive triat as consistancy, each in their proper place.