- #106
Ivan Seeking
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
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Atheism is a leap of faith in the that it denies claims of direct experience.
Poop-Loops said:I'm interested in knowing how your physics friends feel about that. Are there plenty of religious physics majors?
Ivan Seeking said:Atheism is a leap of faith in the that it denies claims of direct experience.
Cyrus said:huh?
end3r7 said:Why did you bite? :(
Ivan Seeking said:You mean that you don't like having faith that you will never see them again.
Cyrus said:huh? Come on, people also claim to be probed in the butt by aliens.
Kurdt said:People with terrible diseases have been deliberately made to suffer if you are a believer.
May I ask to those who were or are comforted by an eternal after-life concept, why is that so comforting?
lisab said:It would be so comforting if I could! The thought of leaving my daughter alone in the world is sad beyond belief (no pun intended!). But in my heart of hearts, I just can't make the leap.
I have a wonderful Christian friend who tells me I'll be the nicest person in hell!
Ivan Seeking said:Logic by Cyrus: Since we assume that some claims are false, we can conclude that all claims are false.
lisab said:It would be so comforting if I could! The thought of leaving my daughter alone in the world is sad beyond belief (no pun intended!). But in my heart of hearts, I just can't make the leap.
I have a wonderful Christian friend who tells me I'll be the nicest person in hell!
Ivan Seeking said:So you not only admit to the fallacy, but you are too small-minded to respond directly?
OmCheeto said:My brother has always said that he's volunteering to go to hell, to comfort the suffering. I think that's so nice of him. Even though he's a demon, god denying gay, and is going to hell whether he volunteers or not!
But then again, so am I...
We'll have tea and crumpets ready for you all. Sunscreen and lip-balm for the fair skinned ones. And don't forget to bring lots of water.
Ivan Seeking said:There are UFOs. Sometimes they get identified.
You are still using the logic that since some claims are false, all claims are false. And history is full of reports of direct encouters with God, or Angels, or whatever, so it is not a matter that can be discarded by logic or by rationalizing select experiences. You make a choice to believe a claim or not, but it is a choice, and unless you can prove otherwise, a leap of faith.
By your logic, I can point to UFO claims that were true as evidence for God.
binzing said:WTF is going on here? Biting...Nibbling, wtf guys?
OmCheeto said:We'll have tea and crumpets ready for you all. Sunscreen and lip-balm for the fair skinned ones. And don't forget to bring lots of water.
B. Elliott said:I'm there! Tea and crumpets by the river Styx sounds breathtaking.
binzing said:WTF is going on here? Biting...Nibbling, wtf guys?
Cyrus said:No, its more than that. These claims are never reproducible, and the criterion by which these claims follow are so wishy washy they are basically useless.
Again these are claims - so what?
History is also full of crackpots and their claims on free energy devices. Does that make those real too?
lisab said:Thanks, OmCheeto! See you and your brother there...I need to find some sunscreen that's SPF 2,279...and maybe a welder's shield...
Ivan Seeking said:The Fallacy of the Atheist: Some claims are false, so all claims are false.
Ivan Seeking said:First of all, if you mean UFOs, then we do have RADAR and other supporting evidence. And in both cases your demand for reproducibility is moot. Not everything can be reproduced on demand. This only speaks to the limits of science. Can you reproduce the Big Bang? We accept that in fact there are many phenomena that exist but can't yet be reproduced.
So what? History is also full of dedicated and honest people who told true stories. And many myths were later proven true.
The Fallacy of the Atheist: Some claims are false, so all claims are false.
Claims of any experience count for zippity doo dah!Ivan Seeking said:Atheism is a leap of faith in the that it denies claims of direct experience.
Gokul43201 said:Claims of any experience count for zippity doo dah!
DavidWhitbeck said:That is merely an attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the atheist. There is no fallacy, atheists need make no statements about the veracity of those claims, they must merely wait for theists to make their case.
No Ivan - your reasoning is flawed. How do you assert that being probed in the butt is a false claim? It too is a claim of direct experience and so carries the same weight as any other unverifiable claim.Ivan Seeking said:Logic by Cyrus: Since we assume that some claims are false, we can conclude that all claims are false.
Cyrus said:Oh dear god, if you really do exist give me a sign...like a million dollars in my bank account!
-Woody.
Fallacious argument. The point of science is not to be able to reproduce natural phenomena. This argument is based on a misunderstanding of science and hence is completely moot.Ivan Seeking said:First of all, if you mean UFOs, then we do have RADAR and other supporting evidence. And in both cases your demand for reproducibility is moot. Not everything can be reproduced on demand. This only speaks to the limits of science. Can you reproduce the Big Bang? We accept that in fact there are many phenomena that exist but can't yet be reproduced.
It is the proving that takes the myths into the world of non-myth, not the telling of the story by an honest, dedicated person.So what? History is also full of dedicated and honest people who told true stories. And many myths were later proven true.
The fallacy of that argument: strawman.The Fallacy of the Atheist: Some claims are false, so all claims are false.
Phlogistonian said:OK, I'll take a crack at this.
Many churches teach a watered-down version of Christianity that basically says that God exists to make you happy and improve your life. But this is backwards. If there is a God, then He is not the one who exists to serve. Rather, God created you to serve Him. And the point of religion is not just to find comfort, but to understand God and do what He wants. And if you disobey God, He has the power and authority to inflict any suffering He wants on you.
This is why the Bible says, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)
Phlogistonian said:So what about comfort? Comfort comes from forgiveness and the promise of eternal life. Some commenters have argued that eternal life would be boring, but they are limiting heaven to what they can imagine. An omnipotent God can create an infinite number of worlds to explore. I'm looking forward to it. :)
arunma said:If one is to accept what the Bible teaches about the divine, then we must understand that the end goal of all things is not us, but God.
arunma said:I could get into theological rewordings about how "the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." (Mark 10:45). But yes, I would basically concur with your explanations.
Not to mention that many people seem to miss the purpose of eternal life as taught in the Bible. Everyone here seems to assume that the ultimate reward of eternal life is to be reunited to one's family and friends. But as my pastor back in college used to ask, "would you want to be in heaven if Christ were not there?" The answer must ultimately be no, lest one desire salvation for all the wrong reasons (and therefore not receive it). The first question in the Westminster Confession essentially addresses the meaning of life: "what is the chief end of man?" The answer is, "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever." The purpose of salvation according to the Bible is to enjoy God. Not reunion with lost family, not streets of paved gold, and not any material comfort, but God himself. As you alluded, most churches in America teach a watered-down Christianity in which people of all religions are going to heaven and in which it's OK to worship God however you please (or not at all). The Bible neither teaches that people can be saved while practicing whatever religion they wish, nor that God requires nothing of man. It seems to me that a view of God has been promulgated in America in which people can invent facts about God and call it doctrine. I don't mean to lay any blame on the posters here who espouse such beliefs. On the contrary, it's the church's fault for preaching man-made religion. Even we physicists seem to have forgotten that just because something makes sense or is intellectually attractive doesn't make it true (anyone remember the ether-based explanation for the presence of magnetic dipole moments in electrons?). If one is to accept what the Bible teaches about the divine, then we must understand that the end goal of all things is not us, but God.