News To: The Terrorists

slugcountry

kyleb said:
Why do you think the thread was locked? We don't lilke talk about stuff like that.
yes in all honesty thats quite ridiculous - thread after thread about al qaeda et al, and no discussion allowed about the exact same tactics employed and supported by our own secret service agencies.
 
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Math Is Hard said:
Thank you for posting that informative poll. I am curious about where it came from and what people were thinking in response to the question: Is suicide bombing in defense of Islam justifiable?
You're quite welcome. Here is some information about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pew_Research_Center" [Broken], they are quite reputable:
The Pew Research Center is a nonpartisan "fact tank" based in Washington, DC, that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping the USA and the world. The Center and its projects receive funding from The Pew Charitable Trusts. The Pew Research Center is a strictly non-advocacy organization, while the Pew Charitable Trusts supports advocacy and non-advocacy projects.

The Center's work is carried out by six projects:

* Pew Research Center for the People & the Press
* Stateline.org
* Pew Internet & American Life Project
* Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
* Pew Hispanic Center
* Pew Global Attitudes Project
And here's their http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=165".
Math Is Hard said:
It seems like that could mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I have been dismayed that even though so many Muslims don't advocate these actions, neither do they come out against it publicly.
I have a full stomach when it comes to western media. Don't get me started. :biggrin:
Math Is Hard said:
Out of my five closest friends, two are women originally from Iran, of Islamic faith, and they think (like me) that suicide bombing is unjustifiable craziness. We all want it to stop. But they seem to think that there can be no "meeting of the minds" in this problem. Obviously, they understand this much better than I do. What should we do if there is no hope of understanding each other? Or is it too soon to make that judgement?
The Muslim world is quite large and is composed of various religious factions (two of which you probably already know - the Shia and the Sunni) and ethnic groups in a myriad of states with regimes ranging from Turkey's secular democracy, through monarchies such as The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to theocracies such as Iran. It is a very diverse super-society. Before the Islamic revolution, Iran was very western-oriented, and the effects are still felt today. Tehran was the seat of a very modern secular Iranian elite. Many of them left during and after the revolution. Perhaps your friends are such exiles?
In any case, you must realize most Muslims around the globe never really get to know any westerners, and constantly hear of your evil ways in sermons and controlled or religious media - though that's changing lately thanks to the western-modelled Al-Jazeera. Opinions, of course, change much slower. If all Muslims were like your friends, I'm sure we'd have significantly less problems. Unfortunately, your friends and their likes pose a somewhat silent minority in significant parts the Muslim world.
IMO the best thing to do as an ordinary person is to try and learn as much as possible about the structures and dynamics of Muslim societies. It can be quite difficult for a westerner to form a good overview of the Muslim world, the media does not cover it well. When approaching a news report, be methodic: do some basic research on the net (I recommend Wikipedia), ask yourself basic question such as what parties are involved? What are their ideologies/motives? When I read an interesting opinion column by an unrecognised author I look them up. It's difficult to be critical and thorough, but the truth is hard to find. :wink:
 
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In any case, you must realize most Muslims around the globe never really get to know any westerners, and constantly hear of your evil ways in sermons and controlled or religious media - though that's changing lately thanks to the western-modelled Al-Jazeera. Opinions, of course, change much slower. If all Muslims were like your friends, I'm sure we'd have significantly less problems. Unfortunately, your friends and their likes pose a somewhat silent minority in significant parts the Muslim world.
What do you mean by "western:" Christian? American? European? White?
 
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Anttech said:
What do you mean by "western:" Christian? American? European? White?
People from western countries. "Getting to know" would also mean a deeper experience than a short conversation.
 
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Yonzo, you'll have to do better than that.

Theres a massive difference between people from:
Cuba to Greece,
Brazil to Canada
Peru to England...
Spain to Senegal

I am sure that Islamic sermons are not talking about those evil doers from Peru.

What would you classify people from New Zealand as? Asian? Easteners?
 
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CIA roots of the current terror are something that needs to be discussed
the CIA trained osam beenforgotten and the CIA want you to forget that
locking threads about the CIA and the actions in its history
IS A VERY BAD IDEA
as are the locking threads about the religious part of terror
and the roll of state supported terror
the big picture is important
censorship is allway wrong
let the fools be seen as fools
debate is part of freedom without a free exchange of all ideas
the facts get glossed over
this board locks too much
 

Kurdt

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Anttech said:
Yonzo, you'll have to do better than that.

Theres a massive difference between people from:
Cuba to Greece,
Brazil to Canada
Peru to England...
Spain to Senegal

I am sure that Islamic sermons are not talking about those evil doers from Peru.

What would you classify people from New Zealand as? Asian? Easteners?
The term westerners can have many meanings but in this context I think it means the dominant culture in Europe and those whose culture derive from European culture. That is most European countries and countries in America have their own identity but are bound by a common root culture if you will.
 

Astronuc

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Anttech said:
What do you mean by "western:" Christian? American? European? White?
I think Yonoz was using "western" as most people do - meaning EU+UK and North America primarily, which are all predominantly Christian with a heavy W. European influence. It should be pretty straightforward given the context.
 
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Westerns may be Countries with an imperialistic history?
 

Kurdt

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In some applications of the definition western an imperialistic role is implied but in this one its obvious that its is mainly the collective common philosophy of European and some american countries.
 
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Anyway, I dont buy it. Someone in the ME only needs to turn their TV on for 30 mins to have 'our' culture beamed directly into their head. They are *not* as closed a society as Yonzo would have you believe.

We need to separate the "islamist" ideal and Islam!

Islamist ideology and neocon ideology are not so far removed. They both believe that "liberal" ideals are not healthy for society. Islamist believe they corrupt people and subconsciously make them turn their backs on the Koran. One of the first, if not the first *Islamist* group were the Muslim Brotherhood
The Muslim Brotherhood advocates the creation of Islamic government, believing that God has set out a perfect way of life and social organization in the Quran (as seen in the slogan, "The Quran is our constitution"). It expresses its interpretation of Islam through a strict religious approach to social issues such as the role of women, but also believes that Islam enjoins man to strive for social justice, the eradication of poverty and corruption, and political freedoms as defined by the Islamic state. It has previously been and continues to be strongly opposed to colonialism, and was an important actor in the struggle against Western military and economic domination in Egypt and other Muslim nations during the early 20th century. Their goal as stated by founder Hassan al-Banna was the “doctrine of reclaiming Islam’s manifest destiny; an empire, founded in the seventh century, that stretched from Spain to Indonesia.”
Neocons believe that liberalism eventually will decay society until the political system becomes relativism, which in turn led to two types of nihilism. (Brutalism and gentle). A small peak into the mind of the grandfather of neoconservatism tells us this.

Strauss taught that liberalism in its modern form contained within it an intrinsic tendency towards relativism, which in turn led to two types of nihilism. [citation needed] The first was a “brutal” nihilism, expressed in Nazi and Marxist regimes. These ideologies, both descendants of Enlightenment thought, tried to destroy all traditions, history, ethics and moral standards and replace it by force with a supreme authority from which nature and mankind are subjugated and conquered. [citation needed] The second type- the ‘gentle’ nihilism expressed in Western liberal democracies- was a kind of value-free aimlessness and hedonism, which he saw permeating the fabric of contemporary American society. [citation needed] In the belief that 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism were all implicated in the deterioration of modern society and philosophy, Strauss sought to uncover the philosophical pathways that had led to this state. The resultant study lead him to revive classical political philosophy as a source by which political action could be judged.

Noble lies and deadly truths

Strauss noted that thinkers of the first rank, going back to Plato, had raised the problem of whether good and effective politicians could be completely truthful and still achieve the necessary ends of their society. By implication, Strauss asks his readers to consider whether "noble lies" have any role at all to play in uniting and guiding the polis. Are "myths" needed to give people meaning and purpose and to ensure a stable society? Or can men and women dedicated to relentlessly examining, in Nietzsche's language, those "deadly truths", flourish freely? Thus, is there a limit to the political, and what can be known absolutely? In The City and Man, Strauss discusses the myths outlined in Plato's Republic that are required for all governments. These include a belief that the state's land belongs to it even though it was likely acquired illegitimately, and that citizenship is rooted in something more than the accidents of birth. Strauss has been interpreted as endorsing "noble lies;" myths used by political leaders seeking to maintain a cohesive society
The Islamists and the neocons tell their followers lies. The neocons make the big boogieman stories, like the USSR and now the Terrorists are out to get everyone, and we need to live our lifes in fear, yet they can save us from this threat, if only we will unite behind them. The Islamists believe the same, Muslims are not muslims if they dont reject all that dont follow the Islamist ideal, in the extreme case they then become a non-muslim and are thus not worthy to live. They both tell rather large fibs to cement their ideologies, one tells you "you are being subconsciously taken from the path to paradise", the other tells you "if you dont follow us you will all die, because over their everyone hates you, we must take them out first. :rolleyes:

Who is worse? They are as bad as each other, and *need* each other to survive. However I tend to think the neocons need the Islamist more, because the neocons also are far more capitilisticly driven than Islamists
 
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Kurdt

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Why is philosophy not on the curriculum? If more people learned how to discuss ideas and draw conclusions from all experiences then we wouldn't have need for threads to this extreme. it really is depressing.
 
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Kurdt said:
Why is philosophy not on the curriculum? If more people learned how to discuss ideas and draw conclusions from all experiences then we wouldn't have need for threads to this extreme. it really is depressing.
The reason why having philosophy on the curriculum would stop the need for "threads like this" is because? Prey tell....
 

Kurdt

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Anttech said:
The reason why having philosophy on the curriculum would stop the need for "threads like this" is because? Prey tell....
I was in a mad moment of despair. Just thought if people were exposed to other ideas rather than being lied to or being told this is the only way then there would be a lot more tolerance and no terror.

But on the contrary threads like this are good because they are the discussion of ideas and the discovery of other ways of thinking or at least hopefully.
 
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I concur, discussion and open dialogue is a good thing....
 

Astronuc

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Kurdt said:
I was in a mad moment of despair. Just thought if people were exposed to other ideas rather than being lied to or being told this is the only way then there would be a lot more tolerance and no terror.

But on the contrary threads like this are good because they are the discussion of ideas and the discovery of other ways of thinking or at least hopefully.
The last thing politicians and governments want people to do is to think (independently) for themselves. :rolleyes:
 

Kurdt

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Anttech said:
I concur, discussion and open dialogue is a good thing....
Shame it has to wait till people decide to do it for themselves, because some never will. If discussion of ideas and open dialogue is not a fundamental educational right then I don't know what is. but then as you quoted a few posts ago its all about the states (any state) control.

Anyway this is miles off original topic i'm just ranting.

EDIT: Astronuc said it before me but just goes to show great minds think alike :biggrin:
 
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Anttech said:
Anyway, I dont buy it. Someone in the ME only needs to turn their TV on for 30 mins to have 'our' culture beamed directly into their head. They are *not* as closed a society as Yonzo would have you believe.
Is "your" culture beamed directly into their head because most of them don't speak English (or Greek in your case)? :tongue2:
 

Evo

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kyleb said:
Why do you think the thread was locked? We don't lilke talk about stuff like that.
No, the reason that particular thread was locked is stated in the thread, if you had bothered to read it, it was basically a repetition of another thread on the same topic.
 

kyleb

Yes, threads on that topic are considered done and locked, I read that and that is what I meand when I said we don't like to talk about stuff like that.
 
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Yonoz said:
Is "your" culture beamed directly into their head because most of them don't speak English (or Greek in your case)? :tongue2:
So they dont use subtitles in the Islamic world, or dubbing techniques, like the rest of the world does? :rolleyes:
 
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Anttech said:
So they dont use subtitles in the Islamic world, or dubbing techniques, like the rest of the world does? :rolleyes:
I was joking.
However, we receive ever major Arab channel here (it comes with the standard cable subscription) and I flip through them every once in a while to see what's on. I do this more frequently in tense times.
To screen western productions, a TV station need an audience that can relate to them. I think most Muslims would show little interest in "Desperate Housewives" and "Prison Break". The provocative content of western productions is another major obstacle.
Unfortunately, Muslim producers sometimes gain popularity the same way their leaders do. Take for example http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2409591.stm" [Broken].
 
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To screen western productions, a TV station need an audience that can relate to them. I think most Muslims would show little interest in "Desperate Housewives" and "Prison Break". The provocative content of western productions is another major obstacle.
I also have no interest in these types programs. Turkey for example has many "western" type shows, even some greeks soap operas are shown there, involving Thrace. Many other European type shows do indeed get into the Arabic countries as well. AL-Jazzera is basically a Western news show in Arabic, but from the point of view of Arabs...
 
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Take for example "Horseman Without a Horse", aired in almost every Muslim country (note BBC put "anti-semitic" in apostrophes - as if there's any doubt about it).
The BBC try and stay objective, and let you the viewer decide, thus the quotes.
 
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Look who just woke up...

:grumpy:
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/lebanonisrael-index-eng" [Broken] - 2 reports on the same conflict, over a month's difference in the time they were published! Impartial my a**! :mad:
 
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