# Today it will be decide when Turkey is going to enter the European Union

1. Dec 17, 2004

### ramollari

what will be the impacts of this new event towards, the European union?

2. Dec 17, 2004

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus
I changed my mind on the issue. First I was not so hot for Turkey joining the EU, but I now think that it is a good idea, if we give it some time to ripe.
In fact, I thought long ago that it was under US pressure that the EU was saddled up with Turkey, in an attempt by the US to weaken (by diluting) any political power of the EU. Surely Turkey is different from most "old European" countries. But when looking at it historically, if the EU is to be the heritage of classical greek civilisation, or of the Roman empire, then Turkey has its place here.
What scares off quite some people is that in all voting that will be done in proportion to demography, Turkey will have one of the most powerful votes within the EU. But then so what ?
I think that the opportunity is great to get Turkey "over the hill" in the next 10 years ; if we don't stretch them too much, and we seem to be on the limit of the Turkish patience. In 10 years, a lot can happen, and if well-handled, Turkey has all the possibilities to catch up (democratically) with the EU. I think the biggest problem is the neglect for human rights outside of the big cities in Turkey (especially women's rights). I'm not talking about legislation, but about mentality.
If the EU does not let Turkey join, I think we'll push them into the Arab world and the rise of Western values there might die off.
It is also a great opportunity for Turkey and Greece to burry their old conflicts, and the best way to do so is within the EU.
As a matter of fact, it is telling that the breakpoint in the negociations seems to be the signature Turkey has to do with the 25 actual members, one of which is Cyprus, and which is not recognized by Turkey. This kind of sillyness should of course first stop ! But I think they'll end up managing.

The question rises then: If Turkey has a natural vocation to join the EU, where should the EU finally stop its expansion ?
Should Russia one day become part of it ? Iraq ? Syria ? Northern Africa ?
From a purely historical perspective, these are valid candidates, if we take the Roman Empire as the defining basis of the EU.

3. Dec 17, 2004

### meteor

It will be good for Turkey. I wish that it can be an apportunity for them to modernize their lifes a bit, perhaps once they are inside the EU they will acquire more aspects of the modern society: no obsession for religion, total equality for women,... In that sense, to "occidentalize" that country can serve as a basis for the modernization of nearer countries like Syria,Irak,..., that can be influenced by what's happening in Turkey
I have not any problem with any country entering the EU as long as they accept the rules that the EU imposes.

4. Dec 18, 2004

### PerennialII

Agree with all the positive aspects given above, in ten or so years the changes might actually happen realistically. Who knows, an added benefit of building a bridge between the west and the islamic world might be something to look forward.

5. Dec 18, 2004

Staff Emeritus
6. Sep 13, 2005

### kishtik

You are wrong. The western values did not rise in a medium of hope for being a part of the western world in Turkey. Actually a freedom war hero, Ataturk, forced them to life. Therefore we come to the most important thing that EU wants from Turkey - reduction of the effects of the army on the social life.

I must say that that effects are not obvious or offending on any thought system (excluding PKK of course, but it is not a thought sytem as you know).

Of course, these effects should be minimised to maintain a western style democracy, but as a result of the third sentence of the first paragraph of this entry, the army should protect the country from radical islamic acts (supported by not only Syria and Iran but also some EU countries) by supporting secularism (if i didnt misspell).

This is what EU dont understand about the social life in Turkey.

And democracy is impossible without laicism and democracy is far sophisticated than using election to decide.

Edit - changed second into third.

7. Sep 13, 2005

### Yonoz

Turkey already possesses these aspects, thanks to Kemal Ataturk.

8. Sep 13, 2005

### Art

I'd say Turkey's chances of gaining full membership of the EU are slim to none. First Turkey has to formally recognise Cyprus which would be political suicide for the Turkish gov't but failing to do so makes membership impossible and after that they have to gain approval in a referendum in both France and Austria (at least - probably others too) which are highly unlikely to return favourable results.

9. Sep 13, 2005

### loseyourname

Staff Emeritus
The people over at the Armenian Club forum I moderate are going to be pissed if this goes through.

10. Sep 14, 2005

### kishtik

Agreed. People should understand that EU will not accept Turkey. And RTE uses peoples religious feelings to gain political power.

99 percent of Turkish people is modern in an European manner but %1 is the problem and the ones who talk and be talked about is that %1. Turkeys image is that %1. This makes me angry. Grrr... An example - Some time ago, when i was flying to Germany with Lufthansa, I saw an advertorial of a travel agency... It was terrible! They showed women wearing turban and walking 10 meters behind their men. This is light years away from the reality!

EU wants to see Turkey like Syria, Iraq or Iran.

11. Sep 14, 2005

### kishtik

Haha what a country, demanding area from all of its neighbors...

12. Sep 14, 2005

### Anttech

Bah... Istanbul is on the Border between Europe and the M.E. The rest of Turkey is in the ME

Total jibberish... The MAJORITY of turkey is nothing like Europe. There customs, and way of living is more akin to the Arabs than Europeans. The Greeks inherited some of this culture after being occupied for >300 years by them. But Greece is a European Country not a M.E. one.

On top of this massive cultural divide Turkey have a very bad human rights record (Hellinic genocide, which they dont even admit to doing!?), they dont recognise Cyprus, they fly daily into Greek airspace with there fighter Jets. The Baltic region of Europe, will not be happy if they join. The EU constitution was NOT ratified by referendums, and if you ask people why a lot say "It is going to fast, too many new member states, too quickly, where does it stop?"

And all the Greeks, I cant see it happening, unless Istanbul becomes Constantinople again, and Asia Minor breaks away from “Turkey” and becomes an independent state The likely-hood of that happening is slim to none.

The only benefit to having Turkey in the EU is to increase the size of its consumer base, I wonder is this benefit will outweigh the major problems… Doubt it

13. Sep 14, 2005

### kishtik

How do you know? Tell your observations not opinions which are nothing more than results of the western propaganda.
The main source of the claims of so-called genocide is The Blue Book (if my I remember the color correctly ^^) which was merely a book of propaganda made by UK. (And the have accepted that it did not reflect the reality.)
Do you know the Greek claim of where borders of the Greek Airspace lie?
The Greek airspace is 6 miles far from the coast according to international
pacts. But they claim it to be 12 miles - cone-shaped with a base on the islands!!!
Sure.
Thats an illusion. Turkey has wanted to be a member for app.40 years. In that period some other countries have applied and been accepted!
Remember that politics is between governments not nations.
There is no reason to distinguish Istanbul. Many cities are better than that.
None.
That benefit can be achieved by privileged partnership, what a portion of EU suggest. There are some other benefits for example a shielding from terror with the worlds 5th largest army etc.

gl

14. Sep 14, 2005

### Anttech

It is an observation, also perhaps my opinion, but it is based on my observations

What? Its not an “illusion” People on the ground were annoyed by two things (especially in Holland), the massive expansion of the EU, and have the Euro shoved down the throats..

Actually my source is my Grandfather, who was born in Marmara, and was forced to leave, I also have friends (good friends) living in Athens now, from Istanbul. On top of this there are several independent studies into the Hellinic Genocide, I'll have a look for them if you like. It happend, and it wasnt some sort of propoganda. Many people were marched to their deaths by the "Young Turks" for being christian... Lots of them were indeed Greek. So don’t tell me that I was fed “UK” propoganda

http://www.greece.org/themis/ny/njprocl.htm

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1915/bryce/a00tc.htm

heres another:
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/memoir/Gerard2/KaiserismTC.htm

And another:
http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/HortonBook.htm
I am not talking about "skimming" the Greek airspace, they fly over Greek islands, and have skirmishes with the Greek Airforce many many many times, and still today try to contest about the soveranty of many of the greek islands...

The current combined EU force is far superior technologically and training wise than Turkey can offer. This isnt a benefit, it is unnecessary. Again the only really benefit would be to increase the size of the EU consumer base and thus the weight of the EU's political power in terms of Import and export

Last edited: Sep 14, 2005
15. Sep 14, 2005

### kishtik

Clearly we have different observations therefore I can only suggest you to visit Izmir if you havent. Generally the tourists visiting Turkey are shocked(this is not for you as you stated that you had observations).

What did you expect after accepting the iron curtain countries? They applied after Turkey.

Was he Greek? Some Greeks were forced to leave Turkey by a mutual pact (so some Turks were forced to leave Greece too) after the War of Independence.

I dont even bother to give an answer to that pontus genocide crap.

Any info about the Armenian issue can be found at
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english

1915 events satisfy only the third one therefore they form an act of replacement rather than genocide.

You gave quotations from your link and I too will do so.

Another one,

No. They fly over the international airspace when dogfighting with Greek ones. Half Turkish half American made F/A - 16s skirmish with American made F/A-16s. Who gets the most benefit? Turkey? Greece? Or American weapon industry?

Not really. Surely EU is better in technology but not greatly. The thing which makes a difference is the nuclear power of France. But you dont approve using it, do you?

16. Sep 14, 2005

### Anttech

... Hmm Is that what you call Aegian airspace!

And the UK... come on Behave, the Combined armies of western Europe are far advanced than the Turkish army... Dont forget how "big" Iraq's army was, and how easy it fell to the Americans... Well the UK has a lot of the same technology as the Americans.

Yes he was Greek..

Well I wont bother with your "pontos excuses"... Because what the Turkish goverment did in Pontos was Genocide, marching people to the desert and letting them starve becuase of thier religion is Genocide, Turkeys "Jihad"...

Heres a nice quote for you:

Number 1 see my quote above... Turkey for Turks/Islam
Number 2 see my quote above (Young turks were extremly racist, and in bed with the Nazi's)
Number 3 http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM2.T.GREEK.DEATH.MARCH.JPG
See picture, there were systamatically marched to there deaths
Number 4 Well there are NO Greeks left in any part of there homeland for 3000 years around the agean.

17. Sep 15, 2005

### kishtik

The west and the rest

In the Gulf War a land war never happened between the USA and Iraq. In Al Khafji, Saddam thought to pull the coalition into a land war but USA was superior at the air... But now terorrists dont have an army to be bombed out from the sky so a well-trained land force is essential in any war against terorrism (not against terorrist countries of course, if you think there were any...).
I am repeating that what happened to him was MUTUAL and legal by international pacts. Ask him.
I have a nicer one.
Mahmut Esat Bozkurt was racist but the two quotes state the owners personal idea. That statement does not reflect the opinion of the government (and the president, Ataturk, gaved the needed answer to him).
So we are done with the first two:
For Number 3 we come the url you gave. In the site you linked there is a document titled Statistics of Democide Chapter 5 at http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM

Now I admit that I read only the first paragraph of this. Because I couldnt resist ... the laughter! The first paragraph is as follows
If my eyes dont trick me this paragraph is about that so-called Armenian Genocide claims. But when do Armenians claim it to happen? 1915.
And what this paragraph say? Turkey's Young Turk Government. Haha Turkey was founded in 1920!!! War of Independence ended in 1923!!!Gallipoli was in 1918!!! In 1915 there was nothing about Turkeys Young Government. There was the old Ottoman Empire with Vahdettin being the king. Therefore the sites you link lose their reliability. Good luck with your lies!

I share that ovservation having a home in Izmir. But that has to do with the above stated pact. Ask your grandpa.

Edit- When Greece declared its independence from Ottoman Empire there happened a great Greek migration from Aegean to the Greece. They went willingly to their country.

Last edited: Sep 15, 2005
18. Sep 15, 2005

### Anttech

kishtik:

This is exactly the reason, why Turkey has been "waiting" for over 40 year to join the EU, and you will have to wait for another 40 years. Unless things change

Our so called lies, are historical facts where I am from... The thread just shows who deep the rift is between the Balkans and Turkey, even if the Greek government is saying "let them in" its just talk... The people will talk with there votes if they are asked...

It just takes one veto...

Until our Historical fact align, country demographics align (ie cyprus), cultures more align... then you aint gonna get in.

We have no reason to have Turkey in the EU. Apart from the chance of economical gains. (Your theory on your army is totally moot, Europe has no need for your army, and to be honest opening our borders up to Turkey would increase the chance of terrorist attacks not decrease them).

Thats just the way it is...

EDIT:

By that I mean:

See below of all countries/orgainisations that Officially recongise the Christian "Genocide" by the Young Turks:

Argentina,
Armenia,
Belgium,
Cyprus,
France,
Germany,
Greece,
Italy,
The Netherlands,
Lebanon,
Poland,
Russia,
Slovakia,
Sweden,
Switzerland,
Uruguay,
Vatican City
and Venezuela.

Orgs that recognise the "Genocide" are:

European Parliament

Council of Europe, Parliamentary Assembly

United Nations Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities

The majority of US states also recognize the Armenian Genocide, however there is no federal (country-wide) recognition.

The Canadian House of Commons voted to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide. The federal government, in opposing the motion, did not express a position on whether the genocide took place.

International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) Report Prepared for TARC

The Association of Genocide Scholars

Union of American Hebrew Congregations

World Council of Churches

The Turkish Human Right Organization

The League for Human Rights

"Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile" (an unnoficial organisation with no parliamentary powers)

Permanent Peoples' Tribunal

Last edited: Sep 15, 2005
19. Sep 15, 2005

### kishtik

Dont tell me how hard it is for Turkey to enter EU. It is impossible indeed not because Turkey couldnt be adequate, it is because EU dont want Turkey - just as you stated. So Chirac shouts about privilaged partnership. That too, is wrong, i think.
Read my previous posts and you will see that I dont want Turkey to continue dreaming about EU while its most important red lines being crossed, most strategical firms being sold to other governments and the nation being pushed into Sevrés fire.
Things will change of course and Im not saying that Turkey has the brightest history, but not being considerate about the human rights in certain circumstances is different from genocide.
Then prove them. But not by linking to funny sites. For example your site mentions a 2 million but
I hope we are done with that genocide claims. An act cant be genocide unless it satisfies the conditions posted.
Good morning!!!
What do you mean? Cyprus`s acceptance was not legal because kypriaki dimokratia cannot enter a group that does not include both Greece and Turkey according to the international pacts.
How do you know? Turkey saves you from narchotic traffic.

EDIT - I didnt see your edit when writing this and you will wait until tomorrow to get response to your edit.

Last edited: Sep 15, 2005
20. Sep 15, 2005

### Anttech

I am curious.. What would you call what happened during the fall of the Ott. Empire? Where (for the sake of argument) >1Million and <2 Million christians, be it Greek or Armenian were Killed was?
A tragidy, yes
Genocide? IMO yes

But what would you say?

What would you class as proof? You goverment admiting it? I wasnt linking to "sites" I was trying to linking to Documents...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides

Read some for yourself, hope you find something that is "non-partisan"

Did you know that it is Illegal to deny the Genocide by the young turks in Belgium ;-) thought you might get a kick out of that one

I was refering to the fact you dont even recognise Cyprus

Anyway, at least we both aggree on the fact Turkey wont be in the EU :-)