Total or kinetic energy in Bethe Bloch stopping power?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of energy in the context of the Bethe-Bloch stopping power formulas, specifically whether the energy referred to is total relativistic energy or kinetic energy. Participants explore implications for particle behavior in materials and the relationship between energy loss and particle mass.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the Bethe-Bloch formula and questions whether the energy ##E## in the formulas refers to total relativistic energy or kinetic energy only.
  • Another participant notes that the difference between total energy and kinetic energy does not affect the derivative in the context of the formulas.
  • A further reply emphasizes that the Bethe-Heitler formula is a good approximation only when ##E \gg mc^2##, suggesting that this distinction may not be significant.
  • There is a clarification that the derivative of total energy and kinetic energy are the same, implying that for the purpose of the discussion, the distinction may not be critical.
  • Participants express confusion about how particles lose energy and whether this includes rest energy, particularly in relation to calorimeters measuring particle energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the energy in the formulas is total or kinetic, and there is ongoing debate about the implications of this distinction.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the behavior of particles in materials and the definitions of energy types are not fully resolved, leading to uncertainty in the discussion.

crick
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The average loss of energy in a material per unit length of a particle (in particular an electron, which is stable) is described by the quantity ##dE/dx##.

- for ionization it is given by the Bethe-Bloch formula $$-\left\langle {\frac {dE}{dx}}\right\rangle ={\frac {4\pi }{m_{e}c^{2}}}\cdot {\frac {nz^{2}}{\beta ^{2}}}\cdot \left({\frac {e^{2}}{4\pi \varepsilon _{0}}}\right)^{2}\cdot \left[\ln \left({\frac {2m_{e}c^{2}\beta ^{2}}{I\cdot (1-\beta ^{2})}}\right)-\beta ^{2}\right]$$
- for Bremmstralungh it is given by the Bethe-Heilter formula $${\displaystyle -\left\langle {\frac {dE}{dx}}\right\rangle \approx {\frac {4N_{a}Z^{2}\alpha ^{3}(\hbar c)^{2}}{m_{e}^{2}c^{4}}}E\ln {\frac {183}{Z^{1/3}}}}$$

I can't understand if the "energy ##E##" in the formulas is the total relativistic energy or the kinetic energy ##K## only?

In the first case ##E=K +mc^2##, while in the second case ##E=K##.

It looks like that the first case is the right one, since it's more general, but in that case I cannot understand how the particle, stopping in the material for various processes can change its mass (the electrons are stable so they do not decay after they have stopped). Does this really happen or does it loose before all its kinetic energy and then its rest energy?

I'm confused also because I read that in calorimeters the range of the particle is used to measure its energy: does this energy include the rest energy?
 
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For the left side it does not matter as both only differ by a constant which doesn't change the derivative.
The Bethe-Heitler formula is only a good approximation for ##E\gg mc^2## which means it doesn't matter either.
 
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mfb said:
For the left side it does not matter as both only differ by a constant which doesn't change the derivative.
The Bethe-Heitler formula is only a good approximation for ##E\gg mc^2## which means it doesn't matter either.

Thank you for the answer! By "differing by a constant" in the left side are you referring to the fact that the rest mass ##mc^2## is constant?
 
It's simpler than that. df/dx = dg/dx is f(x) = g(x) + a constant.
 
Last edited:
crick said:
Thank you for the answer! By "differing by a constant" in the left side are you referring to the fact that the rest mass ##mc^2## is constant?
Right. The derivative of the total energy and the derivative of the kinetic energy are the same.
 

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