Tricky Tax Cuts

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  • #1
schwarzchildradius
Other than being "War President" (which I think would translate into "war lord" were it a monarchy but in any case) GWB takes all kinds of credit for not only preserving the Clinton tax cuts, but slashing capital gains & other unearned income. People who are so rich that they live off the interest & dividends of large investments are thrilled, and the middle class generally got a break of a few hundred bucks last year, however:

The average American only gets approximately $300 or $600 (depending on marital status) back from Bush's tax cuts. The other side of that coin, however, is that every American's share of the national debt was increased by something like $4,400 per person. So, essentially what happened was Bush took out a personal loan in your name for $4,400, handed you $300 of it, and pocketed the rest.
And some people are actually HAPPY about these tax cuts!
In May, Congress passed a $320 billion tax measure that gave the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans an average of almost $100,000 in tax reductions over the next four years.

Half of the tax cut's dividends are put into the hands of our nation's wealthiest 5%.
1 percent (78 million taxpayers) will receive a tax cut of almost $100,000.
60 percent (78 million taxpayers) will receive a tax cut averaging $600.
20 percent will receive a tax cut averaging $66.00.

To make up the shortfall, property taxes had to be raised.
State taxes had to be raised. (But the wealthiest 1% get their tax cuts)
College tuition had to be raised. (But the wealthiest 1% get their tax cuts)
Overtime for our soldiers fighting the war in Iraq has been cut!
The veterans administration cut health care to the veterans.
V.A. Hospitals are closing. (But the wealthiest 1% get their tax cuts)
The President proposes a $250.00 per year sign up fee for veterans. (sneaky).
Bush proposed that overtime pay be cut from firemen, police, nurses etc. The National Firefighters are endorsing John Kerry.
Schools around the country were forced to end their school year early. Students were unclear if they had enough school credits to enter college.

So what's the deal here? Why fall for this obvious fraud? Any answers?
 
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Answers and Replies

  • #2
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  • #3
Zero
Because it is a check for $300, and people are easily bribed. Why is the price of gas so high? Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy(which he lied about, BTW)
 
  • #4
344
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As Zero said, people like money. The tax cuts are probably to rally people to his side, and also gives him a chance to simultaneously give tax reductions to his rich cronies. Greed drives this country.

I find it highly appalling that these people are using the government to get rich. I think that the government should help the majority of the people through Progressivist reforms instead of a small, rich minority.
 
  • #5
Zero
And you can see now that the tax cut was a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. How are the tax cuts going to be paid for? Higher local and state taxes, reduction of services for poor and middle class people, our schools will go underfunded, and our Social Security benefits will be cut.
 
  • #6
schwarzchildradius
No ad hominin BS; The tax cuts were mathematically incorrect, and led to a deficit which directly inflates the price of gas.
 
  • #7
russ_watters
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schwarzchildradius said:
No ad hominin BS; The tax cuts were mathematically incorrect, and led to a deficit which directly inflates the price of gas.
My economics is a little hazy on those: Mathematically incorrect? How? The deficit inflates gas prices? How?

Last I heard, OPEC reduced output. What little economics I had suggests that gas prices rose due to supply vs demand.
 
  • #8
schwarzchildradius
russ_watters said:
My economics is a little hazy on those: Mathematically incorrect? How? The deficit inflates gas prices? How?

Last I heard, OPEC reduced output. What little economics I had suggests that gas prices rose due to supply vs demand.
Good! you're making arguments. I say mathematically incorrect because it's simply equivalent to your dad taking out a $4000 loan in your name, giving you $300, and distributing the rest between his already rich friends. It's an unsustainable situation, and balancing the equation in the meantime the value of the dollar must decline just as (after your dad ripped you off) every dollar you make until the debt is paid is partially used to pay off the debt.

The gap between what the government is paying for and what the Treasury brings in this year is a whopper, more than a half trillion dollars. A deficit this big tells foreign investors that America doesn't have its economic house in order and they're more inclined to invest elsewhere. The value of the U.S. dollar falls. So what?

The thing is, barrels of oil aren't sold in pesos or Venezuelan bolivars. They're sold in dollars. That means when the dollar falls, big oil producers like Mexico or Venezuela can't convert their oil sales into as much of their own local currency. This makes oil producing countries push for higher oil prices through those cuts in production we were talking about. Which can add up to a lousy equation: deficit = higher oil prices.
 
  • #9
russ_watters
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schwarzchildradius said:
Good! you're making arguments.
My other post in this thread was just fine. I was pointing out how some people see "black" and call it "white" and how screwed up that is.
I say mathematically incorrect because... It's an unsustainable situation.
Fair enough, but when I see "mathematically incorrect," I think 1+1=3. You just mean "not a good idea." I disagree, but anyway - now I know what you meant.
...the value of the dollar must decline...
Inflation remains at about its lowest rate ever. That's why interest rates are also at about their lowest rates ever.
The gap between what the government is paying for and what the Treasury brings in this year is a whopper, more than a half trillion dollars. A deficit this big tells foreign investors that America doesn't have its economic house in order and they're more inclined to invest elsewhere. The value of the U.S. dollar falls.
Sounds reasonable, but it isn't what happened: the US had a recession and investors pulled out. Its jus the ususal cycle.
The thing is, barrels of oil aren't sold in pesos or Venezuelan bolivars. They're sold in dollars. That means when the dollar falls, big oil producers like Mexico or Venezuela can't convert their oil sales into as much of their own local currency. This makes oil producing countries push for higher oil prices through those cuts in production we were talking about. Which can add up to a lousy equation: deficit = higher oil prices.
Also sounds reasonable, but the causal relationship just plain isn't there. Why not ask OPEC why they cut production? They'll tell you: greed. http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79DE86AB-5466-4A4E-9A60-71796D1B24C9.htm [Broken]
The decision to cut production was taken to keep prices from falling when demand drops in spring in the northern hemisphere.
If you can't trust AlJazeera to spin greed in a positive direction, who can you trust?
 
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  • #10
schwarzchildradius
Fair enough, but when I see "mathematically incorrect," I think 1+1=3. You just mean "not a good idea." I disagree, but anyway - now I know what you meant.
You see, that's exactly what they do. The Budget-- have you looked at it? It's a fraud. A complete fraud. 27 full color pictures of GWB in patriotic poses, but the math just doesn't add up. They don't include the cost of things that will cost, and they do include bogus predictions about growth in employment that have been proven 3 times to be false, false, false.
Inflation remains at about its lowest rate ever. That's why interest rates are also at about their lowest rates ever.
that's the price of credit, not the value of the dollar. Greenspan does keep the interest rates low and keeps the economy from collapsing under inflation, but this is a constant quantity equation here people: you don't make something out of nothing, so the value of the dollar declines.
Sounds reasonable, but it isn't what happened: the US had a recession and investors pulled out. Its jus the ususal cycle.
Transposing cause and effect. Truly, there is a trade deficit. Don't take my word for it, spend 30 seconds finding out. And it's not a cycle at all, it's a downward slope to the end of public government.
Also sounds reasonable, but the causal relationship just plain isn't there. Why not ask OPEC why they cut production? They'll tell you: greed. http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...1796D1B24C9.htm [Broken]
I don't know what to think about that... aljazeera? Do you trust aljazeera? So what if OPEC cut production: who started opec? IRAQ! Why not spend the government welfare handouts to the oil industry on wind-farmed hydrogen or something eh? The middle east isn't the only source of oil though, just the one with the most connections with GWB.
 
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  • #11
russ_watters
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schwarzchildradius said:
....false, false, false.
And you're saying that makes it different from any other government budget? :confused: Wait, I'm confused now - which one of us is for and which one of us is against Social Security?
that's the price of credit, not the value of the dollar.
Inflation is the change in the value of the dollar relative to actual goods and services.
Transposing cause and effect. Truly, there is a trade deficit. Don't take my word for it, spend 30 seconds finding out. And it's not a cycle at all, it's a downward slope to the end of public government
Truly, there has been a trade deficit for decades. So how can this be the cause for a recent effect? Yep - by transposing cause and effect.
I don't know what to think about that... aljazeera? Do you trust aljazeera? So what if OPEC cut production: who started opec? IRAQ! Why not spend the government welfare handouts to the oil industry on wind-farmed hydrogen or something eh? The middle east isn't the only source of oil though, just the one with the most connections with GWB.
Wait, you stipulated to the supply/demand part a few posts ago (just not the why supply was reduced). Now you want to take that back? And hey, when backtracking, its alwasy best to throw in an irrelevancy to cloud the issue... Wind farms? Sure...

So once again, working backwards from effect to cause:

Gas prices went up... <-data
...because OPEC lowered output... <-you already stipulated to this.
...because they wanted to keep prices up during the spring lull. <-I've shown you a direct quote corroborating this.
 
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  • #12
Zero
No more posts about oil...stay on topic.
 

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