# Trying to Debunk Object Near Saturn in new Cassini Photos

1. Aug 24, 2004

### wealthwise

This came from a closed thread from 2003, but in light of new data and the fact that Mr. Martin has been on the radio this week telling millions of people that this object photographed by Cassini is the mothership he told of. One would think it's important to re examine his claim.

2. Aug 24, 2004

### Staff: Mentor

What new data?
Not really.
Could you link the thread? My interpretation of that quote (the object never moves with respect to the camera) means the object is probably a speck of dust on the camera lens (though it could also be a piece of debris moving with the spacecraft). Have you ever looked through a telescope?
NASA doesn't care. Why should they? With all the crackpots out there, debunking all of them would cost a lot of money and lend credibility to the crackpots while feeding conspiracy theory. Its easier/better to ignore thm.
As well they should - a speck of dust on the lens will confuse people who don't know they are looking at a speck of dust on the lens (especially in a still from a video). [quot] Also you can see frame by frame in the photos that there is movement. Ok so if it's not a mothership and it's not a moon,or other type of heavenly body then what is it? Inquiring minds want to know. [/quote] If its not on the lens, its likely a piece of debris.
I don't think so. You really need to be wary of sites that have predetermined conclusions. Sites like that start with the assumption that there are aliens and look for evidence that might support that conclusion while utterly ignoring all possible mundane explanations.

3. Aug 24, 2004

### wealthwise

Last edited: Aug 24, 2004
4. Aug 24, 2004

### Nereid

Staff Emeritus
Welcome to Physics Forums wealthwise!

My first guess would be a lens flare of some kind - should be quite easy to test; there'll be data on the Cassini website about the cameras, and on the JPL about the time, position and pointing angle of the camera when the images were taken. It'll probably be thoroughly debunked by the folks at Bad Astronomy within a few days.

5. Aug 24, 2004

### Staff: Mentor

Oh, I see now: they talked about a "mothership" some time ago and have now been scouring photos looking for any unidentifiable object to claim is that mothership.
And, what would be unreasonable about that? Considering the counterclaim, it seems downright logical to me. Are you saying that its reasonable to assume that something on a photo with no apparent size or shape is an alien spacecraft? Seriously?
Occam's razor implies that the simplest, most reasonable explanation for something in a photo with no apparent size or shape is an alien spacecraft? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?
Image processing is a critical part of scientific analysis of photos, and for a professional, blotting out a lens flare or speck of dust on a black background in a photo requires about an extra 5 seconds of effort.
My second possibility was a piece of debris. If by "moves in intervals" you mean regular changes in brightness, that's exactly how pieces of debris look in space: they rotate.
I'm sorry, but thats horribly naive. From the sub-title of their website:
That, to me, sounds like a foregone conclusion. Further, Dr. Steven Greer is a quite famous hoaxster, crackpot, and fraud. Any information you get from him needs to be viewed with extreme skepticism.

...and regarding "thecomingoftan" - wow. Its on a whole different plane from Greer. I misread your initial post in assuming this was from Greer - its far, far worse than even Greer. Be wary of real danger here: the Heaven's Gate Cult was founded on a similar premise and the followers comitted suicide en masse.

Bottom line, I can't tell you exactly what it is. I have several possibilities I consider reasonable. But the burden of proof is not on me to provide evidence, its on the person making the claim that its an alien spacecraft and there is no evidence supplied that suggests a spacecraft.

Last edited: Aug 24, 2004
6. Aug 25, 2004

### Overdose

Can you elborate on those claims please especially in regards hoaxing.

7. Aug 25, 2004

### wealthwise

I'm still waiting for someone to elaborate on the video mentioned in the 2003 thread. As for the claims made about Dr. Greer being a hoaxer and "crackpot" I am well aware of who is trying to discredit him and a plethora of other experts in the field and they will not succeed, they have their agenda and it is not a benign one. The people who are behind these attacks and character assasinations are ignorant and malignant. Here is an example of one. http://www.wiolawapress.com/ohwhere.htm. So then I suppose the 400+ Military and scientific Witnesses who testified are in on the hoax too huh? Give us a break! Like I said don't pass judgement before you view the video.

Last edited: Aug 25, 2004
8. Aug 25, 2004

### Staff: Mentor

First, remember where the burden of proof lies here: someone claiming there are aliens on earth needs to put forth a truckload of evidence of it. So, lets go to the site and see if we can find any.

The first thing that you see right under the title is "The Smoking Gun." Sounds good - lets click that. Instead of a photo of an alien spacecraft (you won't find any of those on the site), you get a description of the project. Hmm, ok, back to the main page. On the left are the following headers:

• Fax members of Congress and World Leaders!
• Upcoming Events
• Disclosure Project Representatives Events
• Volunteer

• Disclosure Project Merchandise
• Make a tax deductible donation

• Document Gallery
• Witness Testimony
• Press Coverage
• Order "Disclosure" by Dr. Steven Greer
• Noteworthy news from other sources

• Space Energy Access Systems, Inc. (SEAS)
• CSETI
(Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence)

Well, "Document Gallery" sounds like it might be evidence. Lets try that. Nope - almost all of the "documents" were written by Greer (were you expecting de-classified CIA reports?). Of the ones that weren't, the most on point discusses the technology of the alien spacecraft. Uh, cart before the horse? - What alien spacecraft? There is a link to more documents, but oops - they want money before they'll show it to you. Hmm....I don't think so.

Ok, no evidence there: lets try "Witness Testimony." Again, they want money. But there is a link to some samples. Maybe we'll get something worth hangng your hat on. Well, first we have a British Admiral saying:
"a serious possibility"? This is your evidence? This is what an expert witness will tell me that is compelling?

Gee, is the next one any better? Hmm - an army Sgt. We've fallen a long way down the chain of command. Well, maybe he was a guard at Groom Lake AFB.... well, nope. All he says is the government can keep secrets (duh?) and the issue should be investigated.

Looking back over the headers, it appears that proving that there are aliens isn't really a big part of the disclosure project - over half the headers are either promotions or requests for money (or links to other sites where he asks for money). And the ones that aren't only give you a sample before asking for money. Thus, I have no choice but to conclude that the main purpose of "The Disclosure Project" is to make money for Greer.

But you asked for hoaxes and frauds. Ok, since most of what's on there was written by Greer, specific claims are easy to find:
Oh, I don't doubt he has witnesses. Witnesses are easy to come by. I want evidence.

Ok, so we have a lot of claims, no evidence, and a request for money. If he can't back up his claims with evidence, I can only conclude he's (or his witnesses) have made them up. That's a hoax. Trying to profit from a hoax is fraud.

HERE are some posts on a site called "Citizens Against UFO Secrecy." You'd expect the disclosure project to be right up their alley. You'd be wrong:
Next:

Last edited: Aug 25, 2004
9. Aug 25, 2004

### Overdose

None of that really backs up your original statement though does it, if you want to call someone a fraud and a hoax your going to have to do better than copy and pasting some stuff on his website that you find interpretive and ambiguous at best. And the fact the very worst you could find written about Greer after your googling was a few random posts on ufo site speaks volumes.

Their assesment of Greer in actuality stems from nothing but a misunderstanding of his intentions, his interest lies in collecting government witnesses and he is mearly 'doing his bit' in his own way to help get to the truth of the matter. I imagine running round the country getting ex-govenment employees to speak up is a highly time consuming and costly businesses which probably costs him more money than he makes. And hes supposed to collect photographic and video evidence as well?
Thats completely unrealistic and ultimately unnecessary seeing as other people in the ufo field have this area pretty much covered.

So please if your going to make wild claims and atempt to character assasinate someone please make sure you have some PROOF to back up your claims next time. And reiterating that the 'burden of proof lies with greer' isnt going draw attention away from the fact that your making claims that you cant back up.
I think half the problem your having with the The disclourse project stems from nothing but a misunderstanding, which wouldnt have occured if youd sorted your facts before atempting to debunk it. Let me make it clear the disclosure project is NOTHING TO DO WITH PROVING THE EXISTANCE OF ALIENS.

Last edited: Aug 25, 2004
10. Aug 25, 2004

### Staff: Mentor

On that, I certainly agree.
I'm sorry, Overdoes, but that just plain isn't how burden of proof works.

Also, a slight clarification: those quotes from UFO proponents are from 1999 and are regarding his first book, entitled "Extraterrestrial Contact : The Evidence and Implications" [emphasis added]. This "Disclosure Project" which pre-supposes the existence of aliens (which, it would seem, you think means it eliminates the requirement that he provide evidence) was started in 2001.

Last edited: Aug 25, 2004
11. Aug 25, 2004

### wealthwise

12. Aug 25, 2004

### Staff: Mentor

13. Aug 25, 2004

### Overdose

Again i think all these things could be cleared up if you read the website properly as opposed to skimming through it trying to find anything that backs up your preconceptions. Steven Greer does not let his belief in aliens ever colour the information he recieves, the information stands on it own merits.

14. Aug 25, 2004

### Staff: Mentor

To save me some time, could you post a link to some of this "information?"

15. Aug 25, 2004

### Overdose

No problem, i'll post up a link after ive had some dinner

16. Aug 29, 2004

### Overdose

17. Sep 23, 2004

### Swurv

Nice OD. How much did he charge ya fer that? BTW- your mothership, well, its Iapetus, one of Saturn's moons. Yes I know, It's hard to believe that some object orbiting another planet and reflecting light may be a moon, but trust me on this one. You can find all of the raw images from cassini in chronological order at NASA's site. Check it out. It is a good depiction of someone with a predetermined motive obscuring or omitting evidence in an attempt to obfuscate the truth. Nanu Nanu

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/index.cfm

search for the raw pictures of july 21st through july 22nd, and watch as the spaceship morphs into what strikingly resembles our own moon. Or maybe it IS a spaceship, Its Inhabitants realized we were taking photos, so they quickly shapeshifted to avoid being found out.

Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2004
18. Sep 23, 2004

### Chronos

Ah yes, the amazing and diverse Greer. ER physician, director of the Disclosure Project and CEO of Space Energy Access Systems, inc. By the way, SEAS has announced the discovery of the first working 'free energy' device which should be hitting the market in the near future. See the SEAS website for information on how to become an investor.

Here is an excerpt from SEAS 'strategic overview'

"Research shows that over the past 75 years a number of significant breakthroughs in energy generation and propulsion have occurred that have been systematically suppressed. Since the time of Tesla, T. Townsend Brown and others in the early and mid-twentieth century we have had the technological ability to replace fossil fuel, internal combustion and nuclear power generating systems with advanced non-polluting electromagnetic and electro-gravitic systems. The open literature is replete with well-documented technologies that have surfaced, only to later be illegally seized or suppressed through systematic abuses of the national security state, large corporate and financial interests or other shadowy concerns."

Dr Stevens also hosts field trips for his CSETI following. From an article at
http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1999/jan/d07-001.shtml

"If you are ever wandering the neighborhood of Asheville, N.C., at night and see a group waving flashlights at the sky, you may have stumbled upon Dr. Steven M. Greer and the Center for Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Greer, an emergency-room physician, takes groups of UFO enthusiasts out into the wilderness, where they encourage UFOs to land with a combination of lights and positive thinking. Greer is convinced aliens want to share technology with humanity in the new millennium but that the federal government is hostile to them and that "black ops" programs have attacked flying saucers."

This should be sufficient to dispel any lingering doubts regarding Dr. Greer's credibility.

19. Sep 23, 2004

### Overdose

Not really your just fishing for anything you can find to discredit him and your comming up with nothing as is everyone else. Omfg Greer charges money for things on his website, anyone who does that MUST be a fraud.

I find it pretty telling that no one on this thread has commented on the information ive presented. None of you are even prepared to question its validity because you know you havent got a leg to stand on. Your last line of defense is tralling google for any Greer tit-bits that might call his reputation into question. And even in doing that youve failed miserabley.
Seriously if your not interested in ufos or black ops dont post on this thead its as simple as that. What your doing serves no purpose.

20. Sep 23, 2004

### Entropy

It certainly does suggest he is a fraud! When someone is requesting money for something and the buyer doesn't know what he is getting. Its not like buying a car where you can look at it first and drive it around a little. By your logic I could make a site where I charged $25 for what I claim are blue prints for a perpetual motion machine. Then it turns out its a picture of a water wheel next to a river. On my site I could post some theories on perpetual motion like ZPE or something that just looks scientific. According to you it would be logical to spend$25 on this?