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U.S. says pulling virtually all military from Saudi Arabia

  1. Apr 29, 2003 #1

    kat

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    How do you think this will affect the ME? Saudi, Islamic fundamentalist views towards the U.S.? Saudi's human rights issues?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 29, 2003 #2
    USA is pulling out of Saudi Arabia? Good. It's one of the most barbaric, sexist regimes in the Middle East. No more dollars to them than is necessary for America's self-interest.
     
  4. Apr 29, 2003 #3
    Kat,
    I think this is a good thing.
    Regarding the ME, this should lower everyone's anxiety/panic/paranoia/hate level. If the Islamic fundamentalist view doesn't soften because of this move then I would hope to see them lose some credibility, but who knows. For Saudi's HR issues I'm not informed enough but to venture an ignorant guess that it will remain the same.
    I must say that I am very pleased to learn of this news.
     
  5. Apr 29, 2003 #4

    FZ+

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    Seems like a good thing, but a note of caution.... Saudi Arabia was Bin Laden's major base. Now, for the time being at least, he is free to operate there....
     
  6. Apr 29, 2003 #5
    Bin Laden had a base there owing to America's base. Now that the American base is gone, the bin Laden case is baseless.
     
  7. Apr 29, 2003 #6
    Also, it lessens the pressure on the Saudi government from the fundamentalists there. There is less risk of Islamist revolution; and the Sauds should have more freedom to try and institute cultural reforms -- maybe they'll even finally get around to instituting that whole "voting" thing.

    It'll also give allow the US a much better position to pressure the Sauds to crack down on terrorist funding, since Saudi bases and oil will no longer be critical to US interests.

    And it pulls a major card from al Qaeda's hand. In a sense they just got a lot of what they wanted, though I doubt OBL's breaking out the champagne tonight... ;)
     
  8. Apr 29, 2003 #7

    FZ+

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    Playing devil's advocate, but what if Bin Laden would just declare this a victory for his side? "Hah, the americans are so scared they are running away!" What if he simply uses it among his followers to show that terrorism is working? Today Saudi Arabia, tommorrow Israel?
     
  9. Apr 29, 2003 #8

    russ_watters

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    Staff: Mentor

    Agreed. And we're pulling our troops and our money out of Germany as well.

    I'm not sure if you guys (its Boulder's quote, but several people echoed it) are being naive or what, but the MEs hated us LONG before 1991 and our presence in Saudia Arabia was for their PROTECTION. The MEs hate us simply because we exist and moving out of Saudia Arabia won't change that.
    Yeah, I see that as the far more likely scenario. "We're winning - time to redouble our efforts and finish the infidels off."
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2003
  10. Apr 30, 2003 #9
    I don't buy this. Where is the evidence? And it doesn't make any sense; why the hell should they care what we do over here, if it doesn't affect them?

    Of course, we will continue to affect the Middle East for a long time to come; and I'm sure OBL will not rest during that time. But that level of established fanaticism is not anything you can plan to realistically stop. What you can do is reduce the emotionally-charged issues that push young men (or women) in the Arab world into joining these fanatical groups.

    Troops in Saudi was a big one. If Bush remembers that Israel/Palestine roadmap, and can somehow get the peace process back on track (I'm not holding my breath for that one), the major inciting issues will be gone, and al Qa'eda's rhetoric will find far fewer sympathetic ears -- and far fewer converts.
     
  11. Apr 30, 2003 #10
    Well, it may have happened a little too late for some, but one of the gripes of the OBL crowd was the presence of the US military in Saudia Arabia wasn't it? What if those troops had never remained there, what would 'that crowd' have complained about then?
    Surely you heard the complaints of people expressing the view that the US wants to take control of that area. The absence of Troops could have gone a long way toward painting a different picture, IMO. The US suffers from not being seen to mind its own business (read; keeping its nose out of everyone elses). I'd like to hear any suggestions you might have to improve relations, though it seems you are saying this is impossible.
     
  12. Apr 30, 2003 #11

    russ_watters

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    Yes, *ONE* of the gripes. If we had taken the troops out the next day they would have complained about all their other gripes - like the fact that we exist.
    Damgo, Bin Laden (among others) has explicitly demanded that we convert to Islam or we will all be killed. One of 9/11's purposes was simply to kill as many Americans as possible just for the sake of killing Americans.
    Damgo, seriously, aren't you older than me? I'm 27 and I remember quite clearly the terrorism that existed pre-1991. Hijackings, bombings, hostage taking, etc. Our troops in Saudia Arabia are nothing more than another meaningless excuse. Our removal of the troops will change NOTHING (positive anyway) in their attitude towards us. But I guess we'll see.
    Major fallacy at work there: You're assuming they are rational people. ME's by definition are NOT RATIONAL. In order for a group to have a specific and reasonable gripe that can be addressed to their satisfaction, they must be RATIONAL. There are only two ways to deal with violent, irrational people - kill them or let them kill you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2003
  13. Apr 30, 2003 #12

    kat

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    This is one of the most racist, outragious comments I have yet to see on this board, just who do you consider ME"s??!! Christ.
     
  14. Apr 30, 2003 #13

    GENIERE

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    If ME='s Militant Extremist, I see nothing outrageous or racist in Russ' comment.

    Regards
     
  15. Apr 30, 2003 #14

    kat

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    ME, in a conversation regarding the Middle East is usually meant to be Middle East...but in the name of fairness, I'll withhold further judgment until Russ has a chance to reply.
     
  16. Apr 30, 2003 #15

    russ_watters

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    Huge overreaction, Kat. Actually, I thought ME meant "muslim extremists." I am certainly not asserting that ALL muslims are extremists, but certainly the muslims that are terrorists are by definition extremists. And they're the ones we need to worry about. Extremists of *ANY* religion, political afiliation, etc. are not rational. Thats what makes them extremists.

    I think you misunderstood my post.
     
  17. Apr 30, 2003 #16
    Russ,
    Now you know we were talking about the Middle East how about giving us your thoughts again.
     
  18. Apr 30, 2003 #17

    kat

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    Russ-I'm very sorry, I was pretty amazed that someone who normally is so polite would suddenly be so..erm..not. Now I see..why.:frown: tip toes away
     
  19. Apr 30, 2003 #18
    Don't feel too bad Kat 'cause I thought the same thing you did. I was just waiting to see if Alias could top him.
     
  20. May 1, 2003 #19

    FZ+

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    Though I'll raise a minor quibble.... While extremists probably are irrational, they are not so by definition. They are simply "extreme", ie. on the fringes of the islamic society. But what they are doing can be very rational - just that their situation is radically different from other muslims so as to seem irrational to the others.

    And there are always alternatives to killing them - converting them back, perhaps. And not every "extremist" wants to kill you - extremism goes both ways.

    Example: I am sure that you were irrational and violent once. Say, when you were two. However, that didn't mean that you are now permanently marked or something, and that I should try to kill you now since you are trying to kill me. At least, I think you aren't trying to kill me. *dodges bullet*
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2003
  21. May 1, 2003 #20
    Christian fundamentalists are every bit at bad at the muslim variety. They are intolerant, prone to violence, incapable of dialogue, simplistic in their problem solving and spreaders of hatred to young and old alike. It's just that they happen to be our, western extremists and we put up with them.
     
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