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Uh-Oh, are the politicans fibbing again(RE:Iraq)?

  1. Jun 23, 2005 #1
    This just worked its way into CNN:

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/23/rumsfeld.iraq.ap/index.html

    I find it odd how the inhabitants of the ivory tower (1600 Pennsylvania ave) can keep on preaching how well things are going when the evidence is quite the contrary. There was a report yesterday or the day before that the Guerrillas are getting better at making bombs---bombs used to kill or maim American GI's. The more advanced the "insurgents" become the harder it becomes for us to leave. We are training an effective military unit, by proxy because we have stayed long enough for those with a lesser talent for war to be rooted out while the truly adroit killers have honed their skills.

    This is a conundrum that a lot of pro-conflict people don't understand. For every 1000 bad guys killed one escapes and learns from his experience thus making him a harder target the next time. The now better warrior can impart his little bit of knowledge to the next would-be killer and in so doing create a new breed of insurgent. The US military training program is very structured with only a relative handful of special forces. The majority of or soldiers have been taught to do things a certain way---almost programmed---which allows an opposing force to probe for weaknesses and exploit any weaknesses found.

    I can go on. I can give examples of the pavlovian responses GI's have (black man sized and shaped shooting targets are like that for a reason and boot camp is not there to make soldiers learn how to fold cloths) but in the end the bad guys will get worse, and or soldiers will still continue to become names mentioned on some late night news program.

    I wish Dick and Bonzo would would simply tell the truth for once. I wish they would stop misleading the public with grand stories of Kool-Aid rivers and gum drop trees when the stark reality is the insurgency is growing. The insurgents are become better. The insurgents are building better bombs. The insurgents are producing better snipers. The longer we stay the better the insurgents get, and the more likely a military coup upon or departure becomes.

    My 2 cents.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 23, 2005 #2
    This is why we have, and will continue to have, more of the same:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/i...&en=a5c2f4e54df38e53&ei=5094&partner=homepage

    Keep a loyal barrier around you at all times no matter what the cost I guess. To heck with competence when you have loyalty(from the look of things the two are mutually exclusive to Bush).
     
  4. Jun 23, 2005 #3

    Hurkyl

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    It's easy to think things are going badly when you only look at the negative and completely ignore the positive.


    You claim that the insurgency is growing stronger, but even your reference doesn't suggest that.


    Have you considered what will happen if we left? I don't think I've ever seen someone advocating getting out of Iraq give any sort of serious thought as to what would happen there if we left.


    You also make it sound like that the insurgents are the only ones gaining experience from conflict. What about Iraqi security forces, and the US armed forces? Do you think the Iraqi security forces would have fared better if we never helped at all?
     
  5. Jun 23, 2005 #4

    SOS2008

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    To quote my earlier post in the thread on the Downing Street Memo:

    In the meantime insurgent attacks are now daily, and are killing larger numbers of people (just read the news--MSNBC, CNN, etc.) Also, just reported on the news, Iraq has become the #1 training ground for terrorists from around the world. Uh, if you recall, people who were against the war said the invasion would only cause an increase in terrorists. Yes, good job indeed.

    We know we are in a mess--at least acknowledge this. Can we just leave? No, but we should set clearer bench marks and time tables. These don't have to be carved in stone, but I wouldn't run a company without a solid business plan, and certainly not a war in which people are losing lives every day.
     
  6. Jun 23, 2005 #5

    Hurkyl

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    I never said I want to talk about the positive. I'm saying that you can't argue the negatives outweigh the positives without talking about the positives.
     
  7. Jun 23, 2005 #6
    The OP is about the need for truth about Iraq from the Bush administration, and as with everything else he has great difficulty with truth. Positive things? Only one--it is nice to know Saddam is not in power anymore. Has it been worth it? Not remotely. Furthermore, since regime change is illegal, particularly via invasion without "clear and present danger," Saddam could have been dealt with in a different way. It is time for everyone to face the dismal reality of this war, and for Bush to face the music.
     
  8. Jun 23, 2005 #7
    Hooray for the war! Lets give the terrorists some targets! Before it used to be they would have to save up, sneak into U.S.A, get pilot licenses, etc. and go through all this hassle. Now there's a buffet right here at home! The war on terror is a great idea. Let's give them homefield advantage! Hello!?!? The war on terror could have been fought on United States' terms. Not anymore. Before where was the closest good place to blow yourself up in a blaze of glory to Allah? Israel?
     
  9. Jun 23, 2005 #8
    If these are indeed "terrorist" attacks that have already taken more than 1700 American lives then the terrorists have already claimed more than half the toll from 9/11. So even if we prevent any more attacks on the magnitude of 9/11, we are still giving them a bountiful and endless supply of little freebies to add up to far more. I say "endless" because even after Coalition troops withdraw, the new government will always be revolted against, not to mention even more hatred and justification against America.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2005
  10. Jun 23, 2005 #9
    i didn't get to say it first, darn.

    fibonacci
     
  11. Jun 23, 2005 #10

    SOS2008

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    What positive accomplishment is being ignored (evidence please)? Do you feel the insurgency is in it's last throes as Cheney claims (evidence please)? What will happen if we leave--now or later, and how much later--years from now? If only you folks had to pay the bill, and it was only you or your son/daughter fighting in Iraq...if only. Because the rest of us don't want to.
     
  12. Jun 23, 2005 #11
    the arab terrorists think that america is the root of all evil. they will never stop. what is a millitary for, may i ask? if you said, to protect the citizens of thier nation, you are correct. what is the us millitary doing in iraq? that's right, they are protecting americans, but are also paving the way for democracy in the middle east. usually, where ever there is a strong democratic government, there is peace. do you want a war that will be bloody (which this is far from, think about this fact: duering a test run of the normandy invasion, 3000, yes three thousand soldiers were killed in one day in an accident! right now, we are up to 1700.) yes, one man killed is too many, but its not like its a blood bath over there. oh yeah, this is on the US's terms, when they come to us, innocent people die. do you want to die? i don't, and i don't think you do. you are alot safer. of course, the borders could be a lot tighter, and until that happens, you are not truely safe. sure they will hate us, but they hate us anyway, so i say screw them. they want to kill me, so what should i care what they think about me. what about the americans? we were pretty pissed off when 3000 of our people were killed, how come no body thinks that we have a right to fight back? they can attack us, but we can't attack them? that's a double standard, and it needs to stop. if someone hates you, and wants to kill you, would you feel safe with them roaming the streets? would you do something about it, or would you curl up under your bed and hope for the best? the liberal news media never reports about the thousands of terrorists killed, why not. we are winning, it is getting better, but we can't quit now, or the new iraq will crumble, and we will be back in square one. the attention span of the american public is short. after a war lasts for more than three months, its time to get out. if you get a song that lasts more than four minutes, many people turn it off because they can't focus. so many americans give up on things if it is too hard, and hire someone else to do it for them. that needs to stop.
    i could keep going, but i will stop at that, and continue if you need further convinsing.

    fibonacci
     
  13. Jun 23, 2005 #12

    Pengwuino

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    I guess AGAIN, i must inform the uninformed here such as SOS as to the good going on in Iraq that people ignore.

    95% of children attend school, up 60% from before the war (UNICEF, April 2004)
    The port of Umm Qasar is up and running again for the first time in 20 years ( Andrew Natsios, US Agency for International Development)
    Over 3.5 million children immunized (UNICEF, 2003)
    Electrical energy production was slightly greater hten pre-war levels in October of 2003 (USAID, October 2003)

    But im sure its just selective memory right SOS? :) gimme a hug :D
     
  14. Jun 23, 2005 #13
    the way i see it, the insurgency is not in its "last throes", mainly because of the unwillingness of the american public to fight. war is bad, i know that, but sometimes you need it. look at the democratic elections. iraq has a government. sure, it is unstable, but that's why we need to stay. thier security forces are being trained. i watched a press confrince a while back that showed the numbers of iraqi security forces, and they are growing. i don't feel like doing research, but i think thier numbers are in the 100000 neighborhood. there are 30 (50?) some regiments, where as in 2 years ago there were 2 or 3. again, don't quote me, but those are close enough. i plan to enlist, hopefully enter west point. i am willing to fight, and die. i don't want to, but if my country needs me, i will. i am not gung-ho, and i am not some punk that thinks rambo movies are an accurite discription of war. i think war is like that first part of saving privat ryan. remember that, it looked like hell. i am not excited about it, but i want to do something to make the world a better place. if you have a son/daughter fighting in Iraq, then i wish him/her well and hope he/she gets back safely. remember, they were not drafted, it is an all voulnteer army. if they didn't want to fight, they have that choice. i am glad that soldiers choose to be soldiers, because someone needs to do it, until the end of time.
    again, i will stop because i tend to ramble.

    fibonacci
     
  15. Jun 23, 2005 #14

    Pengwuino

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    That 100,000 number isnt very accurate. As of a few months ago, only like, 5,000 people had more hten 6 months of experience or training and about 20,000 with 3 months. I read it, as i said, a few months ago so i cant remember very well.

    The OP is funny because hes saying the admin. is lieing when hes listening to a bunch of liars himself. The NYTimes doesnt get subscriptions by reporting the newest school to open or the latest batch of immunizations :-/.

    I think we alllllllllll need to realize we just cant leave. Compare it to Rwanda and what happened to the UN. The UN "couldnt take it".... and this is what happened. There should be no doubt in anyone elses mind as to what will happen if we do the liberal thing and chicken out.
     
  16. Jun 23, 2005 #15

    SOS2008

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    Hey, that's the kind of thing I was asking for (though a link would be good, and your info. should be shown as a verbatim paste inside quotation--to keep us all honest). Now, if only we didn't have record deficit spending in Iraq so we could increase our own education statistics, energy production, etc. here in the good ole U.S. And if only these wonderful things were worth it all--resulting in wining the war on terrorism and the hearts and minds of the people. Ah, nation building--isn't it great?! :smile:
     
  17. Jun 23, 2005 #16

    Pengwuino

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    I gave you the website on another thread where we talked about this. It was one of those 'is this a lie' website like factcheck.org or snopes or snoopers or whatever its called.

    Check that, heres the url. http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rayreynolds.htm

    And i dont really think we can put much of a price tag on 25 million people freed... and your post is confusing, how do you win the war on terrorism by increasing our own education statistics? We dont win by being narcassitic...

    Now wheres my penguin hug :D

    Dang, im in that big reply box but theres no spell check.... gigidygigidygoo!
     
  18. Jun 23, 2005 #17
    We're not going to change their minds. What I meant was why make it easy? I want to be a millionaire but I'm not likely winning the lottery. It's like we handed the terrorists the ticket to make it easy to realize their ambitions.
     
  19. Jun 23, 2005 #18
    What does the war on terror have to do with democracy?

    I have heard people talk about communism saying "it sounds good on paper but it doesn't work in real life"

    Not to compare democracy to communism but the idea "a democratic society won't have terrorists/as many terrorists" is still only an idea, we have not yet seen it applied in this region successfully. So far not good...
     
  20. Jun 23, 2005 #19

    Pengwuino

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    And we're killing huuuuugely disproportionate amounts of insurgents whereas on 9/11, we were being killed in huuuugely disproportionate amounts. And exactly how did they need to "realize their ambitions"? Two skyscrapers falling sure looked like someones ambitions being realized... or every other thing western countries have done in the middle east...
     
  21. Jun 23, 2005 #20

    SOS2008

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    Fibster, what you posted was heart felt and touching. I am glad soldiers choose to be soldiers too. However, in gratitude we should not squander their lives--we should not send them to fight except as necessary to defend our country. I am standing up for them, as are other Americans. And when our country is against war, politicians should take heed of this.
     
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