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Undefinable god(s).

  1. May 23, 2003 #1
    [SOLVED] Undefinable god(s).

    Science have proven many times inexistence of concrete gods (like biblical god, or like Zeuses, Apollos, etc).

    To avoid acknowledging inconsistency between observed facts and ANY definition of god(s), religion moved god(s) BEYOND any definition.

    Q: Can undefinable object exist at all? (Note here: not undiscovered object but undefinable object).
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  3. May 23, 2003 #2

    Les Sleeth

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    Of course, and it doesn't have to be God. Whatever might exist without boundaries cannot be defined, although aspects of it might be described.

    By the way, I'd like to see the proofs which have shown concrete gods do not exist.
  4. May 23, 2003 #3
    Re: Re: Undefinable god(s).

    Recall Ra (Apollo) who used to push Sun across sky not so long ago - just a couple millenia back.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2003
  5. May 23, 2003 #4

    Les Sleeth

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    Re: Re: Re: Undefinable god(s).

    True, and I mostly agree with you regarding mythological gods. The problem is that you lumped the biblical god in there, which may or may not be myth. The OT god, particularly before Moses, seems to have been pagan; but some believe that Moses and Jesus both experienced something else, which they called "God." Did they really experience God (whatever that is)? Well, you cannot prove or disprove that.
  6. May 23, 2003 #5
    Scientific Pantheists worship the universe itself as a non-anthropomorphic Divinity and closely follow scientific progress in order to better understand the object of their worship. Rather being an undefinable object of worship, it is a vaguely defined in the same sense as a heap or being bald are vague definitions. More common mainstream religions present even more vague definitions, but they are certainly not beyond any definition whatsoever. For example, God is overwhelmingly cited as the creator of the universe.
  7. May 23, 2003 #6
    I think undefinable in principle is logically inconsistent. But actual problem is, that religion is unable to define it, and it makes a trick - it says that god is always that which science is unable to define. Easy escape - every time science disproves some aspect of god, new unknown becomes new placeholder of god automagically.

    To argue with religion is like to argue with a child, it always ends with 'but still...', and in a sense, its a correct attitude.

    There have been philosophies that go even further than that, claiming that god is inside universe, simply because you can talk about it, think about it. But there might be 'things', that are beyond logic, beyond definition, beyond comprehension to man, in principle. That you can't even talk about without resorting to logic that fails there. Typical religion will argue that thats talking about god, but its hard topic, other side would say you simply can't talk about uncomprehensible. I think possibility exists by our own logic, that there might be something uncomprehensible by logic. But I'd better stop here.

    I'd only reason like this: 'Can undefinable object exist at all?' contains several components you can't use with 'undefinable' - to 'exist' means to us to be logically describable, same about 'object'. By merely using term 'undefinable' implies it being beyond logic, where terms 'exist', 'object' have no meaning. So, imo, by our logic such claim is nonsensical. But it doesn't end here. Claiming that nevertheless is to merely give intuitive 'feel' that there might be something that you can't think about, talk about, thats beyond our logic. You can't talk about undefinable, and thats the main difficulty. They say you can only experience it, without any ability to put that into words without sounding insane. People who can't grasp the subtle possibility of that 'feel', claim that it IS insane. And then there are people who ARE insane. Its a crazy world, y'now.
  8. May 23, 2003 #7


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    Greetings !
    Since probably nothing is absolute it seems
    likely that there are no things that have no
    explanation. And yet, the very likely fact of
    everything being non-absolute hints at the
    possibility of eventual lack lack of definition.
    (Trying to make sense of a likely paradox is
    probably useless. :wink:)

    Live long and prosper.
  9. May 23, 2003 #8
    "Science have proven many times inexistence of concrete gods (like biblical god, or like Zeuses, Apollos, etc)."

    Good to hear someone knows the evidence! Most people here still question "uh, how could this be proven?"

    I say to them, they underestimate the power of the scientific method, and of general investigation!
  10. May 23, 2003 #9


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    I hope that's not all you say... :wink:
  11. May 23, 2003 #10


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    how about emotions? they are powerful like gods are suppossed to be...
  12. May 23, 2003 #11
    Trying to make sense of a likely paradox is
    probably useless.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL now yer finding the grove.
  13. May 23, 2003 #12
    Man by his very nature is a creature of belief ... Sorry, the gods have always been there and always will be.
  14. May 23, 2003 #13
    Re: Re: Undefinable god(s).

    We recently (during last ~100 years) learned that Big Bang was (and still is) the creator of the universe. Then what?
  15. May 23, 2003 #14
    The Gift ...

    But doesn't that imply God had a mistress? Hey maybe that's the problem? If we understood that God was sexual in nature, as the whole of nature might suggest, then maybe we wouldn't be so afraid of Him/Her? We might even learn to take it as a great gift.

    And what did God say in the Garden of Eden? ... "Be fruitful, and multiply!"
  16. May 23, 2003 #15
    Just a few points
    Concrete gods do exist. I've seen a number of them myself in places that sell concrete copies of marble statues of Greek and Roman gods for people to put in their yards.
    Science has never proved that God does not exist. They usually say that God is unproveable by physical science. Paradoxically there are a number of religious scientist though they are not in the majority.
    The BIG BANG is a theory not proved and it too is improveable. There is evidence that supports it but it still has many problems left unsolved and unexplained. One example is what happened to all the anti-matter.
    Logic is NOT REAL in your strict materialistic sense or are you backing down from that stance. Logic is no more or less real than mathematics. If Logic and Math are real then why isn't philosophy, music, art, beauty thought etc. real?
  17. May 24, 2003 #16


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    That's a really good one !
  18. May 24, 2003 #17
    Re: Re: Undefinable god(s).

    It can be proved that such a God does not exist (the God defined as the creator of the universe).

    First, why would such a God be needed in the first place, if the universe had existed for all time?
    The argument they follow, is flawed, because the reasoning is as follows: the universe did not exist for all time, hence it must have had a begin, so it must have been 'created', and hence a 'creator' is necessary.
    What does this solve? Well nothing, cause instead of to explain how the universe was created we now have to explain how God was created.
    But then the argument is put in, God was not created, but existed for all time. But that is just wrong arguing, cause it could be said, the universe existed for all time in the first place. Hence no God needed, no creation, no creator.

    Gods existence as creator of the universe is therefore based on flawed reasoning.
  19. May 24, 2003 #18


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    Re: Re: Re: Undefinable god(s).

    Well, for one thing, you could think that
    God created an infinite time.
  20. May 24, 2003 #19
    Re: Re: Re: Undefinable god(s).

    But what of the essence which gave rise to form? Did the material exist before the immaterial?
  21. May 24, 2003 #20
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Undefinable god(s).

    Ummmm...the Biblical god has no special claim on existance that the other gods don't. If you accept the possibility of one, you are sort of stuck with the rest of them.
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