Under God

Answers and Replies

  • #2
TRCSF
60
0
I agree with the ruling. Having the schools lead it is compelling the students to subscribe to the belief.

I, personally, am against compelling students to take an oath of any nature. But I guess I haven't a problem with returning the Pledge to it's secular pre-McCarthy form.
 
  • #3
Entropy
478
0
Why can't people just get over this? It's two stupid words you don't even have to recite. It's against my religion to even say the plegde but I'm not offended by it.
 
  • #4
Townsend
221
0
I'm not so sure schools need to be compelling student to pledge their allegiance to America even. But if they are going to make kids say it, then at least taking out the under god part is a good start...
 
  • #5
Pengwuino
Gold Member
5,124
17
Yah I also agree with this ruling. Something about simply uttering the word "God" doesn't make sense when your pledging allegiance to a nation founded out of religious principles... It's no wonder there are so many forced-conversion christians out there since our children have to say God once in a pledge they don't understand and don't care about and don't do half the time. Good thing the father made the kid lie to get his face into the news in the first place...

end sarcasm.
 
  • #6
Entropy
478
0
Just out of curiousity, how much money have we wasted because of this?
 
  • #7
TRCSF
60
0
Pengwuino said:
Yah I also agree with this ruling. Something about simply uttering the word "God" doesn't make sense when your pledging allegiance to a nation founded out of religious principles... It's no wonder there are so many forced-conversion christians out there since our children have to say God once in a pledge they don't understand and don't care about and don't do half the time. Good thing the father made the kid lie to get his face into the news in the first place...

end sarcasm.

The nation was founded under the idea of freedom of and from religion. To require students to swear to "One nation, under God" is a logical contradiction.

If it's "just two stupid words" why the big fuss?
 
  • #8
Being a man of faith I was never bothered by the mention of God; but all the same, I aprecate the ruling out of respect for those who feel otherwise.

Pengwuino said:
a nation founded out of religious principles
I'm curious as to what you are referring to?
 
  • #9
JamesU
Gold Member
805
3
I think it's resonable. People who do not want to believe in god- and want to raise their children the same way- is their choice. and they shouldn't be forced to say the same line every day, if it's against their beliefs
 
  • #10
2CentsWorth
14
0
The "under God" was added to the pledge long after the founding of our nation. Though "God" is a generic reference, I agree it should not be compulsory because many Americans are agnostic and of course some are atheist. People are getting tired of the religious right pushing their personal agenda, and pushing the envelope in regard to it, resulting in backlash that will become more intense if they keep it up.
 
  • #11
Pengwuino
Gold Member
5,124
17
TRCSF said:
The nation was founded under the idea of freedom of and from religion. To require students to swear to "One nation, under God" is a logical contradiction.

The nation was founded on freedom from Catholicism... not from religion.

TRCSF said:
If it's "just two stupid words" why the big fuss?

Good point. Why must it be taken out if its just two stupid words. I mean aren't atheists suppose to be telling their kid "God doesn't exist"? What is this crap about forcing religion on someone? When my high school use to do these dumb radio-station deal things every friday or so playing all rap music, I didn't fly off the handle and run to buy the latest Nelly CD. I was forced to listen (why the hell would you put huge ass speakers next to a LIBRARY... ugh, I am glad I am outa there) to it but I didn't feel like rap was being forced on me. Same deal here. Its a word, not a mental-reprogramming.
 
  • #12
TRCSF didn't suggest that it was just two stupid words, but rather simply pointed out that you did.
 
  • #13
Pengwuino
Gold Member
5,124
17
kyleb said:
TRCSF didn't suggest that it was just two stupid words, but rather simply pointed out that you did.

I did?

more characters!
 
  • #14
Well apparently that is the impression he got, hence the quotes to separate it as not being his own belief but something saw in your comments. I gathered the same from your sarcasm.
 
  • #15
faust9
691
2
Pengwuino said:
The nation was founded on freedom from Catholicism... not from religion
WRONG!

Good point. Why must it be taken out if its just two stupid words. I mean aren't atheists suppose to be telling their kid "God doesn't exist"? What is this crap about forcing religion on someone? When my high school use to do these dumb radio-station deal things every friday or so playing all rap music, I didn't fly off the handle and run to buy the latest Nelly CD. I was forced to listen (why the hell would you put huge ass speakers next to a LIBRARY... ugh, I am glad I am outa there) to it but I didn't feel like rap was being forced on me. Same deal here. Its a word, not a mental-reprogramming.

Were you compelled to sing Nelly? Is Nelly a religious icon or deity? Did you mention your displeasure to the principle? Was a Nelly lyric added to the pledge as a means of combating communism?

Man alive, your argument is weak to say the least.
 
  • #16
Oh, and I meant to address this earlier:
Pengwuino said:
The nation was founded on freedom from Catholicism... not from religion.
Freedom from imposed religion would be more correct, both in regard for our Founding Fathers rejection of the Church of England as well as the ruling on the pledge.
 
  • #17
pattylou
303
0
My kids are being taught and expected to sing "God Bless America" at their public school.

This is even more egregious to me than the "Under God" phrase.
 
  • #18
selfAdjoint
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
6,881
10
pattylou said:
My kids are being taught and expected to sing "God Bless America" at their public school.

This is even more egregious to me than the "Under God" phrase.


Where do you live? Have you contacted the ACLU?
 
  • #19
TRCSF
60
0
Pengwuino said:
The nation was founded on freedom from Catholicism... not from religion.



Good point. Why must it be taken out if its just two stupid words. I mean aren't atheists suppose to be telling their kid "God doesn't exist"? What is this crap about forcing religion on someone? When my high school use to do these dumb radio-station deal things every friday or so playing all rap music, I didn't fly off the handle and run to buy the latest Nelly CD. I was forced to listen (why the hell would you put huge ass speakers next to a LIBRARY... ugh, I am glad I am outa there) to it but I didn't feel like rap was being forced on me. Same deal here. Its a word, not a mental-reprogramming.

Catholicism?

Pengwuino, it would be a lot easier to take you seriously if you understood the basics of American history.
 
  • #20
pattylou
303
0
selfAdjoint said:
Where do you live? Have you contacted the ACLU?
I haven't. I thought about having a word with the principal, but she's one scary *****. Flyers for Vacation Bible School came home in the backpacks last spring, as well.

I'm in Ventura County. What would ACLU do?
 
  • #21
TRCSF said:
Catholicism?

Pengwuino, it would be a lot easier to take you seriously if you understood the basics of American history.
The Church of England was Catholic at the time, not Roman Catholic, but Catholic all the same.
 
  • #22
Entropy
478
0
I don't believe the words should be in the plegde, let alone have any plegde whatsoever. I believe the question is: is it worth all the trouble to remove it? Aren't there more pressing matters we could invest our resources in?
 
  • #23
SOS2008
Gold Member
38
1
Religious freedom is why many people came to America. Freedom to practice the religion of their choice, but also freedom from religion. It was not until 1942 that Congress wrote the Pledge into law, with the words "under God" added later in 1954. So obviously the founding fathers did not come up with this.
pattylou said:
I haven't. I thought about having a word with the principal, but she's one scary *****. Flyers for Vacation Bible School came home in the backpacks last spring, as well.

I'm in Ventura County. What would ACLU do?
Or Americans United for Separation of Church and State (go to the website and you can contact them) These groups help with litigation of these cases. The Bible School is not compulsory, however, it should not be conducted on school property (with tax support). The promotional flyer is something parents (I'm sure you're not the only one) can complain to the school board about.

Entropy said:
I don't believe the words should be in the plegde, let alone have any plegde whatsoever. I believe the question is: is it worth all the trouble to remove it? Aren't there more pressing matters we could invest our resources in?
This same question was asked during the 2004 election and focus on banning gay marriage. It has become such a "shove it down your throat" environment that things like "God Bless America" bumper stickers have become offensive to me.
 
Last edited:
  • #24
JamesU
Gold Member
805
3
pattylou said:
I haven't. I thought about having a word with the principal, but she's one scary *****. Flyers for Vacation Bible School came home in the backpacks last spring, as well.

I'm in Ventura County. What would ACLU do?
I agree with this, while I believe in god, religeon should not be forced upon children. Definitely talk to the school board. maybe the superintendant, it could be something across the district! :eek:

I got a flyer in the mail the other day (was sent to all students at our school) to attend a catholic high school next year
 
  • #25
SOS2008 said:
It has become such a "shove it down your throat" environment that things like "God Bless America" bumper stickers have become offensive to me.
Saying God Bless America is a violation of the commandment "Do not take the Lords name in Vain". Asking god to bless this nation over others is an act of vanity while invoking the lords name!
 
  • #26
What does this have to do with Catholicism?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Is that not clear?

How can anyone argue that the first amendment does not establish the US government as secular?
 
  • #27
TheStatutoryApe
260
4
pattylou said:
My kids are being taught and expected to sing "God Bless America" at their public school.

This is even more egregious to me than the "Under God" phrase.
Why exactly do you have a problem with them being taught and asked to sing the song? I have a friend who is incredibly non-christian but he has on multiple occasions joined christian choirs to be able to sing and he didn't care what the content of the songs were. Can you not just ask that your children be excused from this particular event? And is it really that important to you or the children?
I'm personaly not religious, patriotic, or ethnocentric yet I love Irish music which contains quite abit of all of the above. I personally can't see why the issue is so troubling.
 
  • #28
pattylou
303
0
Why exactly do you have a problem with them being taught and asked to sing the song?
I find it offensive because of the entire school environment.

Wealthy white fundamentalist christians driving SUV's and slapping "support the troops" ribbons (made in China) on the back; having prayer breakfasts before school and having class assignments writing letters to the president telling him five nice things about himself; conversations with parents saying they are angry that science will teach their children they evolved from monkeys (wrong), the spelling list this week comprised of exclusively war-like words (comrades, opponents, combat, endure, etc)...

This sort of environment poises several buttons in my brain, those buttons that have always held a slightly different view from this gestalt, ready to go off but still in check ...

And then hearing my sweet, caring, loving five year old singing a song that clearly asks God to favor the United States of America.

The idea of asking God for favor over someone else is bad enough, but in the context of everything else going on, and having this come from the public school, pushes my buttons.

SA, If I were without kids, and if I were still single, these 'buttons' wouldn't be installed. If anything I'd think "Quirky parents, they should get a life." Maybe I should try to adopt that attitude, or ... maybe it is OK for me to be upset that an institution which is supposed to maintain the separation of church and state is imposing blind nationalism values on my kids.

I don't really think they (my kids) will absorb it, I just find it incredibly insensitive of the school. It's wrong. It's just wrong.

I play some religious cd's, some of it's beautiful. I'm glad your friend sings in a group he enjoys. The distinction is what we choose for ourselves and our families, and what we wouldn't - and I would never choose to teach my kids that God's favor (at someone else's expense) can be garnered through prayer.
 
Last edited:
  • #29
mattmns
1,118
6
Personally I think the whole pledge is bogus and a waste of time. Recite the pledge on your own time, school is for learning!
 
  • #30
TheStatutoryApe
260
4
pattylou said:
I find it offensive because of the entire school environment.

Wealthy white fundamentalist christians driving SUV's and slapping "support the troops" ribbons (made in China) on the back; having prayer breakfasts before school and having class assignments writing letters to the president telling him five nice things about himself; conversations with parents saying they are angry that science will teach their children they evolved from monkeys (wrong), the spelling list this week comprised of exclusively war-like words (comrades, opponents, combat, endure, etc)...

This sort of environment poises several buttons in my brain, those buttons that have always held a slightly different view from this gestalt, ready to go off but still in check ...

And then hearing my sweet, caring, loving five year old singing a song that clearly asks God to favor the United States of America.

The idea of asking God for favor over someone else is bad enough, but in the context of everything else going on, and having this come from the public school, pushes my buttons.

SA, If I were without kids, and if I were still single, these 'buttons' wouldn't be installed. If anything I'd think "Quirky parents, they should get a life." Maybe I should try to adopt that attitude, or ... maybe it is OK for me to be upset that an institution which is supposed to maintain the separation of church and state is imposing blind nationalism values on my kids.

I don't really think they (my kids) will absorb it, I just find it incredibly insensitive of the school. It's wrong. It's just wrong.

I play some religious cd's, some of it's beautiful. I'm glad your friend sings in a group he enjoys. The distinction is what we choose for ourselves and our families, and what we wouldn't - and I would never choose to teach my kids that God's favor (at someone else's expense) can be garnered through prayer.
I completely understand. I'm not unsympathetic because I'm single without children. My previously mentioned friend is a father (and divorced) and I discuss parenting and the like with him on occasion and assist him in activities with his son.
I was missing the context. It would seem to me that the serious problem doesn't come from them singing this particular song but that it is more or less the straw that broke the camels back. It would seem that you have plenty of legitimate concerns and most of them seem very much more important than this song. I hope that you concentrate on those things more so than this song, and I'm sure that you probably will.

Good luck with your children's schooling situation Patty. I sincerely hope it will get better.
 
  • #31
Lisa!
Gold Member
639
97
Forcing people to say things that they don't believe it, is funny. Humans are free and have the right to have their own belief and religions. For example if you foce all people to say "I believe in God", it causes even spritual people feel bad about God. If you want to make people not to believe in/do something, force them to do!
 
  • #32
This ruling only adds support to the Republican party's complaint of judicial activism, and furthers the conservatives' argument against such rulings. This ruling lacks common sense, as well as prior precident. It is cutting hairs, and when Roberts and O'conners replacement is confirmed, there will be a backlash. Stupid. Stupid.
 
  • #33
Math Is Hard
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
4,611
36
I think Robin Williams had the best idea: change it to "one nation, under Canada" or "one nation, over Mexico". I guess Alaska and Hawaii present a problem with that, but I still thought it was funny!
 
  • #34
McGyver said:
This ruling only adds support to the Republican party's complaint of judicial activism, and furthers the conservatives' argument against such rulings. This ruling lacks common sense, as well as prior precident. It is cutting hairs, and when Roberts and O'conners replacement is confirmed, there will be a backlash. Stupid. Stupid.
Free exercise of religion not good enough for you?
 
  • #35
Anttech
228
0
The Church of England was Catholic at the time, not Roman Catholic, but Catholic all the same.

ehh? The Church of England is protestant, has been since its inception in 1530's (Your country was born post 1530 :-) ) When King Henry split from the Pope and setup his own Chruch... Before that All the UK was ROMAN catholic, ie they believed that the Pope is the head of the Church...
 

Suggested for: Under God

Replies
3
Views
618
  • Last Post
Replies
7
Views
878
Replies
37
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
962
Replies
6
Views
729
Replies
12
Views
456
Replies
2
Views
173
Replies
10
Views
486
Replies
5
Views
384
  • Poll
  • Last Post
Replies
10
Views
411
Top