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US war crimes or other international law violations?

  1. Aug 19, 2003 #1

    russ_watters

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    Staff: Mentor

    In another thread, I posted this:
    Please note, I am looking for WAR CRIMES. Theoretical future violations of a declaration are not crimes or even possible crimes. I won't limit this to the Geneva Conventions though - any international law will do. Please note however that "declarations" of any kind are *NOT* laws.

    For reference, here is the fourth Geneva Convention. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

    I will concede ONE:
    I tend to doubt anyone will be charged for it though. I'll limit (for now) the sarcasm about that particular article to that sentence. Flat out - its a joke. Too specific and impractical to be useful.

    Given the depth of the inuendo, I'd expect there to be something a little jucier.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 20, 2003 #2

    GENIERE

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    Russ, I’m sure there have been violations of various laws and conventions. I don’t know of any, I just assume there have been. The violations may have occurred through an individual’s deliberate action or by neglect or through ignorance. What is certainly true and is quite obvious to an objective observer is that if violations did occur, it is definitely contrary to US policy. No nation is more concerned with protecting the rights of individuals than the US.
     
  4. Aug 20, 2003 #3
     
  5. Aug 20, 2003 #4
     
  6. Aug 20, 2003 #5
    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511122003?open&of=ENG-USA
    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511142003?open&of=ENG-USA
    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510452003
    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE141572003
    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510532002
    http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-article_4-eng
    http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/carpet-area-bomb.html

    http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2003.htm
    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm
    http://www.wagner.edu/faculty/users/pjani/casualties_of_iraq_war.htm
    http://www.mapbureau.com/usersites/donalda/iraqbodycount/container.html
    http://www.providence.edu/mba/goodrich/war/surgical/

     
  7. Aug 20, 2003 #6
  8. Aug 20, 2003 #7

    russ_watters

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    Adam, that won't cut it. This is a discussion form. Just like in the atom bomb thread, *YOU* have to make an arguement. I won't search through all of that stuff (though I have read a bunch and found no crimes) and construct your arguement for you.
     
  9. Aug 20, 2003 #8

    russ_watters

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    I guess thats fair. Individuals in the heat of battle making bad decisions you mean?

    I was more looking for direct actions as a matter of US policy though. Something that would implicate the USA, and not just some 19 year old private from Alabama.
     
  10. Aug 21, 2003 #9

    GENIERE

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    Well Russ, your challange has been out for a few days now. It looks like you've proven your point. No violations!
     
  11. Aug 22, 2003 #10
    it doesn't matter if there are charter violations by the US in Iraq because the UN is cowering before the terrorists in Iraq, and complicit in our principally justified but procrastinated (and poorly planned) involvement there. What's happening in Iraq is called a "cluster f***" in military parlance.
     
  12. Aug 22, 2003 #11

    FZ+

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    Schwarzchildradius: This is a waste of time. From the methods of argument used in the other topic, it is quite obvious that the only reasonable conclusion is that Russ_watters believes that no government has ever committed a war crime, and so under his criteria no war crimes have been committed by the US, or any other country.

    It you dispute this russ, then give a specific example and I'll show you how, if you are consistent, you would discount it.
     
  13. Aug 23, 2003 #12
    Oh, you mean like supplying Saddam Hussien with WMD capabilities?
     
  14. Aug 23, 2003 #13
    hahaha nice work zero!

    this is a very pointless thread, you don't want anyone to tell you there are war crimes so what the point russ?

    i think declaring war on a country wihtout UN backing constitutes by itself a war crime, otherwhise exactly why did we get so mad atgermany in the first world war?
     
  15. Aug 23, 2003 #14

    kat

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    I suggest you brush up on your history, the very least of the problems with this comment is that the U.N. did not exist until AFTER the 2nd world war.
     
  16. Aug 23, 2003 #15

    kat

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    I don't believe this fits into war crimes catagory (legally) I'd be interested to see the legal reference that your inferring exists. Also, my understanding of the whole WMD issue is that private corporations gave samples to many countries of certain bacteria that could later be made into WMD's. What were the specifics of this? anyone?
     
  17. Aug 23, 2003 #16

    russ_watters

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    Well gee, those are quite compelling examples, guys! [/sarcasm]

    I issued a fairly straightforward challenge. By choosing to attack me personally instead of adresssing the challenge itself, you don't help prove your point - you help prove MINE.
     
  18. Aug 23, 2003 #17

    russ_watters

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    You are probably right - it is probably moot, but I would still expect SOMEONE to voice such a concern. The UN is composed of individual sovereign nations, though people often act like it is a single unified body. Not even one of our bitter enemies (Syria, Jordan, France, etc.) have made any allegations of such crimes. And these guys complain about everything they can.

    When the worst that can be said is that we didn't do enough to protect an art museum (a claim later proven wrong due to a misquote by an overeager reporter), that says something about American conduct in war.

    There isn't anyone in the world who goes to greater lengths than the US to protect civilians and conduct war as morally as possible.

    The US has never been bad when it comes to conduct in war, but we've been worse. After Vietnam and Mai Lai, there was a major effort to fix the problems in the military (Vietnam was the low point for our military probably since the US revolution). Morality and ethics are now a major part of officer and NCO training.
     
  19. Aug 23, 2003 #18

    FZ+

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    No, my challenge has every relevance, because your idea of war crimes is one that is utterly meaningless and not reflected by anyone else. This thread is every bit as futile as one of those creationist "prove evolution correct" websites.
     
  20. Aug 24, 2003 #19
    1) Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    2) Bombing Dresden, Hamburg, and other civilian targets.

    3) The slaughter of around 300 civilians in the Blackhawk war.

    4) The massacre at Wounded Knee.

    5) The bombing of the Al Amirya shelter in Iraq.

    There are plenty of examples. One simply needs to have a look at any decent history book. The only problem is that the victors never face war crimes courts. Basically, if you win, you get to tell your own side of the story, and villify the loser.
     
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