Unveiling USA Black Budgets: Is It True?

[tumor]

Is it true that USA army has huge secret budget,couple billion dollars?
And watching now a guy who with 20 millions built craft that almost reached space,does makes me wonder if all those UFO which are reported maybe are, in reality advanced military spacecraft s

I am not a conspiracy theorist but look:space shuttle is just a very convienient cover to a more highly advanced projects.
Americans and other nations looking at the shuttles are very impressed by what they see ,and recent crash reinforces feeling of conquering space a very difficult task.In truth shuttles are in my feeling old junk who should be displayed in museums.

What you people think?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We absolutely have black budgets. We wouldn't want to give away our secrets would we?

No doubt, many UFO and other anomalous sightings have been due to secret military aircraft and projects.

My dad saw technology in the Korean War that was only made public some twenty five [or so] years later. Also, Consider that stealth aircraft technology actually began with the SR71 back in the sixties. I think the first time that the public heard of stealth technology was in the late eighties.

 

[Overdose]

I always wondered if the str-80 mission where the missle is filmed shooting (or at least trying to shoot) a ufo, could be a blackbudget starwars test of some kind. Questions odviously need to be asked, but as use'all none seems to care, what's wrong with the world :uhh:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Or...it might have been a thruster and ice particles.

 

[Overdose]

Or...it might have been a thruster and ice particles.

heheh yeah or light refracted from venus, i actually saw a guy from NASA talking about it on tv when they first released it and he was convinced it was nothing to do with ice particles atall. I've also heard independant scientists rubbish that view as well.

 

[DarkAnt]

what is this about ice and a missile?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Here is a link to the video in question.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1074.htm

On the video you will see a small object drifting slowly from right to left. Next, a flash is seen and the object almost instantly changes direction up and to the right. Finally, another quickly moving object appears to pass where the first object was before changing course.

Of course we have the first problem of depth perception. How far away and how large are the objects seen? The flash is allegedly a thruster firing that then causes the ice particle to change course. Some people believe that the ice particle is an alien spacecraft that dodges a missile attack from Earth [the second object]. I see no evidence to support such a giant leap of faith.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

heheh yeah or light refracted from venus, i actually saw a guy from NASA talking about it on tv when they first released it and he was convinced it was nothing to do with ice particles atall. I've also heard independant scientists rubbish that view as well.

Post your evidence. I have seen one or two renegade scientist who think this is something, but the official NASA explanation as well as interviews with the astronauts who were there say otherwise. If you know of significant details in this video that contradict these explanations I would like to hear about it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Note also that in the first sequence shown in the video, if you look in the lower right quadrant of the picture you will see another eight or so "objects" moving slowly in the same direction as the first object considered earlier. After the flash of light, these eight objects also change direction precisely as does the first. Next, in the lower middle of the screen, after the flash an eleventh object is seen moving quickly across the field in precisely the direction as the "missile" mentioned earlier. To me this all seems to be consistent with the explanation offered by NASA - ice particles in motion and deflected by a thruster blast.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

The Video

Thats PINE GAP and the "Star Wars" BRILLIANT PEBBLES RAIL GUN stationed there.
I've posted a link to the "Star Wars" Rail Gun (from the 80s before).

Here's the link (from Bob's CLASSIC Book);
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/rephotogallery/rdt/64.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If you wish to make claims then you need to support your claims with evidence. I am going to start deleting unsubstantiated, random claims of secret knowledge.

 

[Overdose]

I find it shocking that educated people can arrive at such convoluted conclusions such as the 'ice partibles' theory.
First of all the 'ice particle' is too far away to be effected by any thrusts from the NASA craft. Secondly why is this ice particle traveling at speed in the atmosphere? its not just in orbit, it's clearly traveling under its own speed. And your right there are other 'ice particles' in the video at roughly the same altitude which can be seen speeding up and slowing down, again clearly moving under their own power.

I'll have a look for the links i should have somewhere to the analysis of this video and post back when i find them

 

[Overdose]

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/pdfs/JSE_STS-48.pdf

found it
this pdf gives a pretty even handed dissection of the video and makes some very good points.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I find it shocking that educated people can arrive at such convoluted conclusions such as the 'ice partibles' theory.

Really? I would think that an objective posture demands that we do so unless or until solid proof exists otherwise. The ice particles explanation seems pretty reasonable to me. Of course the devil is always in the details.

First of all the 'ice particle' is too far away to be effected by any thrusts from the NASA craft.

Why do you think so? In fact it they were far away we may not be able to see them at all. How are you judging the distance to, and size of these objects?

Secondly why is this ice particle traveling at speed in the atmosphere? its not just in orbit, it's clearly traveling under its own speed.

I don't think this is clear at all. Why do you think so? How do you gauge the actual distance to the objects? Your entire argument rests on this point.

And your right there are other 'ice particles' in the video at roughly the same altitude which can be seen speeding up and slowing down, again clearly moving under their own power.

This is news to me. I will read your pdf file and review the video.

Thanks for the post.

 

[Njorl]

I think the majority of the Black Budget is spent on pork-barrel stuff that is so embarassing that it needs to be kept secret. That and assassinations.

Futuristic superweapons? We want people to know we have those, even if we don't really have them.

Njorl

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think the majority of the Black Budget is spent on pork-barrel stuff that is so embarassing that it needs to be kept secret. That and assassinations.

Well, I never said anything about efficient spending. Still, the stealth program was quite the success I think. LASER systems that are capable of shooting down missiles allegedly are being installed as we speak. I even wonder a little if the patriot III is a LASER system. Has anyone ever seen one? I 've never really looked for information.

 

[russ_watters]

Is it true that USA army has huge secret budget,couple billion dollars?
And watching now a guy who with 20 millions built craft that almost reached space,does makes me wonder if all those UFO which are reported maybe are, in reality advanced military spacecraft s

I am not a conspiracy theorist but look:space shuttle is just a very convienient cover to a more highly advanced projects.
Americans and other nations looking at the shuttles are very impressed by what they see ,and recent crash reinforces feeling of conquering space a very difficult task.In truth shuttles are in my feeling old junk who should be displayed in museums.

What you people think?

Most black projects are just code-names on budget reports. It takes some effort, but people can piece together how much is spent on it. You can't very well say money is going to build a monument in Dayton and then divert the money elsewhere: people ask where the monument is (or: 'why did my project get shafted on the money - its in the budget?').

Re: sightings. Its no surpirse that a high number of UFOs are sighted in the midwest. That's were we test our new toys. In the late 70s, early 80s, a lot of people saw trianglular shaped UFOs. The F-117 is triangular. Hmm...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Re: sightings. Its no surpirse that a high number of UFOs are sighted in the midwest. That's were we test our new toys. In the late 70s, early 80s, a lot of people saw trianglular shaped UFOs. The F-117 is triangular. Hmm...

I agree with one modifier: Whatever triangular craft many people are seeing lately is no F-117. When we finally know what it is this will explain a large number of sightings I think. My best guess is a large, triangular, star-field camouflaged blimp-like craft that uses an exotic form of propulsion. By exotic I mean the earthly kind. It seems to be silent and capable of significant acceleration. Reliable reports of this craft typically include descriptions of flight characteristics that are not aerodynamic - they really sound more like the characteristics of a blimp to me. The Illinois police chased this thing all around the Highland Ill [White AFB] area one night. I think I might have even seen one near Beale AFB, in Northern California, in 1979.

Edit: One key detail is that it can hover silently. This thing has scared the heck out of many, many people - including our friend Art Bell btw.

Another key detail is that most reports of this type of craft do not suggest a technology beyond us mere humans.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Like this:

They are big, black, and triangular. In UFO folklore they are proof-positive that planet Earth is a rest stop for joyriding, but road-weary, extraterrestrials.

A just released study by the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), based in Las Vegas, Nevada, sheds new light on the dark and mysterious craft. They offer a more down-to-earth hypothesis.

NIDS researchers contend that these type vehicles are lighter-than-air, blimp-style craft of the U.S. military's making. Likely powered by "electrokinetic" drive, the lifting body-shaped airships have been skirting the skies from perhaps the early to mid 1980s.

Illinois sighting... [continued]

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html

Also, that was Scott AFB, not White AFB.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Unsubstantiated?

Unsubstantiated?

You mean, like, some of your claims?;

Posted by Ivan Seeking;
“We absolutely have black budgets.”

Or;

“My dad saw technology in the Korean War that was only made public some twenty five [or so] years later.”

Or;

“Some people believe that the ice particle is an alien spacecraft that dodges a missile attack from Earth [the second object]. I see no evidence to support such a giant leap of faith.”


My claims ARE NOT unsubstantiated, regarding the Rail Gun and Pine Gap;
Here’s some evidence. Have a look at it;


Watch Hoagland’s analysis of the video (at the end of his U.N. Briefing).

So;
“If you wish to make claims then you need to support your claims with evidence. I am going to start deleting unsubstantiated, random claims of secret knowledge.”

I think, you’ll find, that my claims are quite well backed up, by a couple of reasonable scientists (let alone, Military).

But if you don’t think this is good enough, HELL – DELETE AWAY!

 

[Allah]

I find myself actually agreeing with Ivan for once. There are definitely black projects.

"We want other people to know we have those, even if we don't really have them."
-Njorl

No we don't. Do we want Kim Jong Il to know that we can kill him in less than an hour and his 3rd world military can't do anything about it? No, he would go (even more) insane.

Did we want to tell the Soviets that their massive air defense network was now obsolete because we had developed stealth technology? NO! They would have developed larger and more complex network that may have prepared them.

Please Njorl, a little common sense now and then goes a long way.


Oh yea, LONG LIVE AURORA!

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Yeh, I agree with you Allah, there ARE Black Budgets.
The "Star Wars" Rail Gun I refer to, was a product of just such a Black Budget!

I was just pointing out to Ivan Seeking, that a lot of his claims are unprovable as well.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Unsubstantiated?

You mean, like, some of your claims?;

Settle down. I made no claims of secret knowledge. You also implied a connection between the video and the rail gun when none is shown.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

There IS a connection claimed on the end of Hoagland's UN Briefing video.

Check it out...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Did you provide a link for this or just a link to purchase the video?

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Unfortunately, you DO have to purchase the Video.
Hoagland doesn't "give" this stuff away.

I'd be more than happy to "pirate" it for you (I have a copy of the video, and have for a decade).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In that case why don't you fill us in on the argument? What is the evidence?

I'm not about to send Hoagland any money and no illegal copies please, but if evidence exists to support these claims then please make your case.

 

[Overdose]

Really? I would think that an objective posture demands that we do so unless or until solid proof exists otherwise. The ice particles explanation seems pretty reasonable to me. Of course the devil is always in the details.

So we should assume that they're ice particles even though they behave nothing like ice particles? i really can't see the logic in that.
The implied proof in the ice particle theory seems to be 'we know that these must be ice particles otherwise they must be actual craft, and frankly that's too out-there' This is all the ice particle argument rests on, I've yet to hear one convincing argument that doesn't rely on this in a direct or indirect way as a sole argument.

Why do you think so? In fact it they were far away we may not be able to see them at all. How are you judging the distance to, and size of these objects?

Im just using my human in-built sense of space although granted it is hard to make a wholey acurate position of the objects just from a short video clip prior to proper analysis.

I don't think this is clear at all. Why do you think so? How do you gauge the actual distance to the objects? Your entire argument rests on this point.

My entire argument doesn't rest on this point, i don't even have an argument as itself evident to my mind that they're not ice particles. But in arguing the odvious id say that the fact that some of the objects can be seen moving at a considerable rate prior to the supposed 'thrust emssion' (faster than youd reasonably expect an object to travel that was just in orbit).
Also the fact that the main object slows down and comes to stop before the 'thrust', which would be more consistant with an object moving under its own force as opposed to something which was mearly being pushed by something else. The brightness pulsations of the objects are also not atall consistant with known ice particle behaviour. And the fact that the space shuttles position doesn't change what's so ever after the 'thrust firing' is also pretty damning.
However the pdf odviously puts the case together much more eloquently than i can and id be interested to hear your views on it

 

[Njorl]

I find myself actually agreeing with Ivan for once. There are definitely black projects.

"We want other people to know we have those, even if we don't really have them."
-Njorl

No we don't. Do we want Kim Jong Il to know that we can kill him in less than an hour and his 3rd world military can't do anything about it? No, he would go (even more) insane.

Did we want to tell the Soviets that their massive air defense network was now obsolete because we had developed stealth technology? NO! They would have developed larger and more complex network that may have prepared them.

Please Njorl, a little common sense now and then goes a long way.


Oh yea, LONG LIVE AURORA!

I hope you are being sarcastic. The existence of stealth technology was intentionally leaked specifically to get the Soviet Union to spend more money developing radar to counter it.

It was never going to make Soviet air defenses obsolete, but we wanted to make them think it would. The US strategy vis a vis the USSR was always to force them into crippling spending.

There are black budget items, that is an aknowledged fact, but they are rarely big weapon systems. They are usually about encryption, eavesdropping, decryption and infiltration.

Njorl

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And the funniest part is that a Russian scientist wrote the original paper that made stealth possible.

We also [allegedly] faked LASER tests to make the Soviets think that our star wars program was much farther along than it was. Of course, which was the lie; the first one or the second one that contradicts the first one. Funny how we were told this technology did not really exist but now we see this being deployed.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Did we want to tell the Soviets that their massive air defense network was now obsolete because we had developed stealth technology? NO! They would have developed larger and more complex network that may have prepared them.

I have seen several interview in which some of Reagan's people told of our strategy to run the Soviets broke. Allegely this was the basis for the evil empire rhetoric, star wars, and a variety of other disinformation campaings designed to dupe the Soviets into spending themselves out of existence. In the words of David Stockman, I think it was, "it was a race to see who would go broke first". Neither one of us could afford to fight the cold war any longer but with a little help we had calculated that we could win - or in this case lose the race to economic collapse.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Rail Guns And UFOs

Ok, for Ivan Seeking;

From;
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/Smokinggun.html
“However you don’t see any “projectiles” in this clip as we did in the STS-48.”

Alright, basically, Hoagland analyses the STS-48 Video and it’s “lights”. He raises the possibility of the Star Wars Rail Gun being used to fire the projectiles (or “Brilliant Pebbles”, which he again, names) at the “evading” light. He even mentions Pine Gap by name, whilst not confirming one way or the other, whether this is the origin of such projectiles.
He then does (quite a thorough – better than ANY other study I’ve seen on the STS-48 Video) a search for any other alternative explanation (to the ET Craft question). Ice particles, etc. etc. – the standard NASA explanation crap. He brings in an Atmospheric Specialist (can’t remember his name) to derive a mathematical formula for determining the size and distance of the objects. Its compelling stuff…
I recommend watching it for anybody interested in these subjects. It’s a MUST.
If I find the time, I'll transcribe the 15 minute segment and type it out and post it (seeing you don't like the illegal option...).

The Larry King Interview;
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4876


Info on Rail-Guns;
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212.web.stuff/Lars Tulip/Lars web project Folder/What.htm

There’s other froot-loops, like me, out there;
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:w3LuiyATIaEJ:www.mycal.net/rail2.pdf+Rail+Gun&hl=en

Private industry (a bit behind the times…);
http://www.powerlabs.org/railgun.htm

 

[russ_watters]

The one little difference though between stealth and Star Wars is that stealth is real while Star Wars was always a myth.

And stealth did actually invalidate the entire Soviet air defense network. Bhagdad '91 was proof of that. And even today, I don't think there is a deployed system that can shoot it down (though I think the Aussies are working on a radar that might be able to track it). It gave us what may be the biggest technological advantage of any military in (modern) history.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Russ, I'm starting to think the truth about the lie was the lie. In the last ten years I have seen one heck of a lot of news like this.

Laser gun zaps missile
A laser gun, described as "the world's first high-energy laser weapon system designed for operational use", has shot down a missile in a test in the US desert.

We've just turned science fiction into reality

Lieutenant General John Costello, US Army Space and Missile Defense Command
The $250m system was built by TRW Corporation for the US and Israeli governments and was tried out at the White Sands missile range, New Mexico, on Tuesday

During the test of the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL), it tracked a Katyusha rocket with its radar and then destroyed it with its high-powered laser beam.

The system will be delivered to Israel by the autumn and could be used to intercept Katyusha rockets, which have in the past been fired by guerrillas from the Islamic group Hezbollah, based in southern Lebanon. [continued]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/782696.stm

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Laser Systems Are Operational And Deployed

Of course, Star Wars is real.
Australia has had the US military "breathing down its neck" about deployment options for the last few years.

There were tests done in Palau (Western Pacific trust Territories) over five years ago! Its public record.

And of course, even I, can construct a Rail Gun which will shoot "Brilliant Pebbles" INTO SPACE, with minimum effort! Whilst one must be very "stupid" to do such things (not to mention how illegal it is), its a piece of cake to get the materials needed...