Verdict against Saddam Hussein!

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  • #1
Astronuc
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Apparently Saddam Hussein has been found guilty and has been sentenced to death by hanging for crimes against humanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Saddam_Hussein

On November 5th, 2006, Saddam was sentenced to death by hanging. Critics have alleged that the date in which the verdict is read live to the world, November 5, was deliberately motivated by the Bush Administration to influence the U.S. midterm elections scheduled just two days afterward; American officials reportedly have a heavy influence on the court.
This will not exactly endear the US to many in the world.
 

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  • #2
Rach3
To think, tens, or hundreds of thousands have died to make this execution possible.
 
  • #3
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Astronuc said:
Apparently Saddam Hussein has been found guilty and has been sentenced to death by hanging for crimes against humanity.
Yep, i know. This is completely redundant IMHO, even the "symbolic" value of this trial and sentence are overestimated. But anyhow, like most people, i don't really care.


regards
marlon
 
  • #4
arildno
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Good riddance to him.
It won't make the world a better place, though.
 
  • #5
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There is still another trial to be held. Then they will go into the appeals stage. In the meantime there is still the possibility of violence.

Meanwhile, Iraqi officials canceled all military leaves, ordered the Baghdad airport closed and imposed an indefinite curfew from 6 a.m. today in the capital and the religiously mixed provinces of Diyala and Salahuddin, home to Saddam's birthplace and the Shiite town at the center of his trial.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003348279_saddam05.html [Broken]
 
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  • #6
turbo
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Well, here is Rove's "October surprise", though it should not have come as a surprise at all. It'll give the elephants a bump among some fence-sitters, but will it turn any Congressional races for them?
 
  • #7
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They should've shot him in the face while he cowered in his hole like the dog that he is.

Instead we had to waste resources to try this animal - and now even more time and money is going to be spent on an appeal. What a crock.
 
  • #8
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There is a bit of irony here in the fact that most of our allies are against the death penality.
 
  • #9
devil-fire
ptabor said:
They should've shot him in the face while he cowered in his hole like the dog that he is.

Instead we had to waste resources to try this animal - and now even more time and money is going to be spent on an appeal. What a crock.
you know, its Always a waste of resources to give a guilty man a trial? we should execute suspects before their trials so we don't have to spend money for sound prosecutions
 
  • #10
russ_watters
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You picked an ironic part of the article to quote, Astronuc: there's a big, pink warning at the top of the page that the neutrality of the article may be compromised by "weasel words" and the section you quoted contains one fact followed by two weasel words - and both have since been removed from the article.
 
  • #11
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On a side note, I was very impressed when reading about the Nuremberg trials... (sorry for going off topic, at least its not that far off topic).
 
  • #12
Astronuc
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russ_watters said:
You picked an ironic part of the article to quote, Astronuc: there's a big, pink warning at the top of the page that the neutrality of the article may be compromised by "weasel words" and the section you quoted contains one fact followed by two weasel words - and both have since been removed from the article.
Well, we've preserved the original for posterity. I simply quoted what was there, and I wasn't inferring anything, although the comment about US influence was a concern. Hopefully the US influence was simply technical, i.e. helping with the court and trial structure.

Wikipedia said:
You can help Wikipedia by improving weasel-worded statements.
:rofl: That just doesn't look right! :rofl: I hate weasel words and weasel-worded statements. Of course, we know that anyone can edit Wikipedia, so statements, particularly those of a political nature, must be given proper scrutiny.

They should've shot him in the face while he cowered in his hole like the dog that he is.

Instead we had to waste resources to try this animal - and now even more time and money is going to be spent on an appeal. What a crock.
Well, we're supposed to be the 'good guys', and good guys don't shoot unarmed people in holes. We've got to go through the process.
 
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  • #13
Rach3
There are sectarian riots in the streets, in response to this. The AP article is notable for having a spelling error in its title:

Duel rallies continue after Saddam verdict

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Jubilant Shiites marched by the hundreds Monday, celebrating Saddam Hussein's conviction and death sentence as Sunnis held defiant counter-demonstrations...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saddam_verdict [Broken]
 
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  • #14
Astronuc
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More importantly in the article:
The surge in violence expected after the Sunday verdict on Saddam's trial for crimes against humanity still did not materialize. An Interior Ministry spokesman credited a round-the-clock curfew in Baghdad and two restive Sunni provinces.

But Iraq's relentless death toll continued: the bodies of 50 murder victims were discovered Sunday, the bulk of them in Baghdad, police 1st. Lt. Thaer Mahmoud said.

Baghdad, which has a mixed Shiite-Sunni population was relatively quiet Monday, with offices and the international airport closed and few cars or pedestrians on the streets.
Hopefully resentment is not simmering and building. The rate of violence while still high has not increased. I would hope that people get tired of it and move on to being more peaceful and productive.
 
  • #15
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Astronuc said:
Apparently Saddam Hussein has been found guilty and has been sentenced to death by hanging for crimes against humanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Saddam_Hussein

This will not exactly endear the US to many in the world.
Just before the Mid-terms as well, coincidence? I think not
 
  • #16
Astronuc
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Hussein Trial Was Flawed but Reasonably Fair, and Verdict Was Justified, Legal Experts Say
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/06/world/middleeast/06trial.html
By JULIA PRESTON
The yearlong trial that ended yesterday with a sentence of death by hanging for Saddam Hussein had serious legal flaws that left doubts about whether he was allowed to present a full defense, international legal experts said.

Lawyers and human rights advocates broadly agreed that the Iraqi tribunal’s proceedings frequently fell short of international standards for war crimes cases. But even critics of the trial said the five Iraqi judges who heard the case had made a reasonable effort to conduct a fair trial in the face of sustained pressure from Iraqi political leaders for a swift death sentence. American lawyers pointed to substantial evidence offered by the prosecution implicating Mr. Hussein in the crimes against humanity with which he had been charged.

“Did this meet the standards of international justice?” asked Jonathan Drimmer, who teaches war crimes law at Georgetown University Law Center in Washington. “The answer is no. But to look at the ultimate verdict, it certainly is consistent with the evidence presented.”
That's the key point, like it or not.

However - the ramifications -

In a Divided Iraq, Reaction to Saddam Death Sentence Conforms to Sectarian Lines
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/06/world/middleeast/06voices.html
By SABRINA TAVERNISE
BAGHDAD, Nov. 5
 
  • #17
LURCH
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Unfortunately, I think that's necessary for the politic process. The word politics means that two opposing views must clash. This is how one view gains dominance over another, and becomes a decision, and thence a course of action. Without this polarizing process, nothing would get resolved, so nothing would get done.

I just wish we could do it without the violence.
 
  • #18
Astronuc
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Mubarak Warns Against Hanging Saddam
from The Associated Press
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6462656 [Broken]

CAIRO, Egypt November 9, 2006, 5:02 p.m. ET · Egypt's president came out strongly against hanging Saddam Hussein, saying in remarks published Thursday that it could make Iraq explode into more violence. But Iraq's prime minister said the execution could take place by the end of the year.

The statement from President Hosni Mubarak of Eygpt broke an uneasy silence among Arab leaders over Sunday's verdict by an Iraqi court, which convicted Saddam for the killings of some 150 Shiite Muslims after an assassination attempt against him in 1982.

Mubarak, a regional heavyweight and a top U.S. ally, appeared to speak for many in the region who are uneasy about seeing a former Arab president tried and sentenced -- no matter how much they disliked Saddam's regime. Analysts suggested Arab leaders are worried about the precedent an execution would set, and said Arab publics often identify with their leaders.

"Carrying out this verdict will explode violence like waterfalls in Iraq," Mubarak was quoted as saying by state-run Egyptian newspapers. Hanging Saddam "will transform (Iraq) into blood pools and lead to a deepening of the sectarian and ethnic conflicts."

Saddam has appealed, and is being separately tried for genocide in the deaths of about 180,000 Iraqi Kurds, mostly civilians, during a crackdown in the late 1980s.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki confirmed this week that both legal procedures would go on simultaneously and that Iraq's three-man presidential council is pledged to allow Saddam's hanging if the court rejects the appeal.
It would seem revenge, retribution and retaliation are still very much part of human behavior.
 
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  • #19
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I think this will be the straw that broke the camels back. I think that executing Sadam is not the right thing to do. He was an evil man, and did evil things, but I am against the death penalty. I believe In this case it will escalate tensions, between Sunni's and Sheia factions, it wont bring any good, and will make a martyr. I dont believe the court is without its outside influences, and to be honest is more akin to a kangaroo court than anything. He should have been tried outside Iraq, and outside of the Neo-con's influence, in an international court. my 2 cents. No good will come from his death.
 
  • #20
vanesch
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Personally, I do not care about what happens to Saddam, he was a bad guy.

However, I'm more concerned with the *reason* for his dead sentence. Apart from the fact that one can have doubt about the process' fairness, the problem is that Saddam is a former head of state that is condemned to be hung for being responsible for the death of 150 civilians as a direct consequence of his orders.

Now, there are some other heads of state who are responsible for the dead of less than 200 civilians as a direct consequence of the execution of their orders! Are they also going to be hung ?
 
  • #21
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vanesch said:
Personally, I do not care about what happens to Saddam, he was a bad guy.

However, I'm more concerned with the *reason* for his dead sentence. Apart from the fact that one can have doubt about the process' fairness, the problem is that Saddam is a former head of state that is condemned to be hung for being responsible for the death of 150 civilians as a direct consequence of his orders.
I am very glad that Saddam is going to behung like a dog. It is what he deserves.

Now, there are some other heads of state who are responsible for the dead of less than 200 civilians as a direct consequence of the execution of their orders! Are they also going to be hung ?
Well, if those killings happenend with the same intention and in the same way as Saddam, then YES they should be hung if the death penalty is valid in such countries. I am thinking of Kim Y I, Ahmadinejhad, Mugabe, The president from Syria, HAMAS etc etc...

marlon
 
  • #22
Gokul43201
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marlon said:
I am thinking of Kim Y I, Ahmadinejhad, Mugabe, The president from Syria, HAMAS etc etc...
I don't think those were the people vanesch had in mind!

Besides, it's not what the intention was, but that there was intent, that's important. Whether I kill 150 people for their money, their political opposition, or their refusal to kiss my feet first thing every morning is immaterial.

As always, the reason Saddam is being tried and hung is that he's the bad guy that lost the war.
 
  • #23
BobG
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Anttech said:
I think this will be the straw that broke the camels back. I think that executing Sadam is not the right thing to do. He was an evil man, and did evil things, but I am against the death penalty. I believe In this case it will escalate tensions, between Sunni's and Sheia factions, it wont bring any good, and will make a martyr. I dont believe the court is without its outside influences, and to be honest is more akin to a kangaroo court than anything. He should have been tried outside Iraq, and outside of the Neo-con's influence, in an international court. my 2 cents. No good will come from his death.
Any crimes he committed were committed against Iraqis, so having him tried by Iraqi courts was the appropriate thing to do.

It's hard to say it was a kangaroo court. The trial was a circus, but evidence for what Saddam did was solid - the Iraqi government was very good at documenting exactly what they did. That doesn't mean the court wouldn't have reached a guilty verdict regardless, but it is hard to say the verdict was bogus.

You could be right about what the impact of executing Saddam will be. I think the impact is a huge unknown. There's a possibility of it having a positive impact, especially long term, but a huge possibility of pouring gas on the flames of an already volatile situation. You run the chance of the long term positives never even getting a chance to come into play.
 
  • #24
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Gokul43201 said:
I don't think those were the people vanesch had in mind!
I know that but he is wrong and that was my point. It is very obvious that the people i named are not in the same league (as "heads of state") as the people Vanesch had in mind.


Besides, it's not what the intention was, but that there was intent, that's important. Whether I kill 150 people for their money, their political opposition, or their refusal to kiss my feet first thing every morning is immaterial.

As always, the reason Saddam is being tried and hung is that he's the bad guy that lost the war.
I agree but i feel you are objecting to a point i never wanted to make. I did not just say "look at the intention". We are judging leaders here not just civilians. When we are talking about leaders we are talking about regimes and THERE is the specific difference i wanted to point out.

marlon
 
  • #25
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Any crimes he committed were committed against Iraqis, so having him tried by Iraqi courts was the appropriate thing to do.
To be honest, IMHO it is only an Iraqi court because it is situated in Iraq. The whole country is propped up by Foreign military forces, and the court is yielding to what these foreigners believe is justice. The outcome everyone knew before the process started. Judges have been changed, lawyers shot.. Its not 'normal' to say the least.

If Sadam was tried outside Iraq in an International court of justice these problems wouldnt have happened, but that would open an even bigger can of worms, something that the powers to be right now wouldnt allow...

Trying any head of state is a mine field...
 

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