Vice Presidential Debate 2012

[BobG]

Joe Biden v. Paul Ryan

When Biden gets near a live microphone, literally anything could happen (including overuse of the word "literally").

Ryan has his own problems, ranging from balancing his own conservative budget plans in Congress with Romney's suddenly shifting position on taxes to fudging his marathon times (less serious, but somewhat similar to Biden's plagiarism problem years ago).

None the less, both come across very well in public.

Who knows what will happen?

Better break out the warning signs!

 

[Evo]

Joe Biden v. Paul Ryan

When Biden gets near a live microphone, literally anything could happen (including overuse of the word "literally").

Better break out the warning signs!

Lol! Biden's not a good debater.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

If you want to watch Ryan win a debate, here's a link.

Youtube

If you prefer to see Biden win, I can't help you, perhaps the scifi channel has a website.

 

[Evo]

Well Romney appeared to throw Ryan a couple of curveballs, one with pretending "abortion is not on my agenda".

Then saying that his comments on the 47% were "completely wrong". Why, he *likes* those people, yes, he does. IMO. :tongue2:

 

[rootX]

Just tuned in, Ryan speaking good and Bidden body language is not good.

 

[Evo]

Biden is wiping the floor with Ryan. Biden has more facts, well accurate facts.

The woman in charge is doing well.

 

[rootX]

Biden is wiping the floor with Ryan. Biden has more facts, well accurate facts.

Yes that's true Ryan seems BSing things out of thin air.

 

Anyone feel "Talk about religion and abortion" was an improper question?

 

[chemisttree]

Biden is totally controlling this and Ryan is doing worse than Obama did in the first debate.
Ryan's only hope is that Biden is coming across as rude, laughing over Ryan's answers, interrupting often and just plain talking over Ryan's answers. I don't think Biden's rudeness will matter at all.

Score one for Obama/Biden team. This performance just reinforces the point that Obama is in over his head.

Biden certainly isn't.

 

[Evo]

Biden is totally controlling this and Ryan is doing worse than Obama did in the first debate.
Ryan's only hope is that Biden is coming across as rude, laughing over Ryan's answers, interrupting often and just plain talking over Ryan's answers. I don't think Biden's rudeness will matter at all.

Score one for Obama/Biden team. This performance just reinforces the point that Obama is in over his head.

Biden certainly isn't.

Obama was advised to hold back. Biden was advised to go after Ryan. The Obama debate was just ill advised.

Overall, who would i want in office? Obama

When asked about how their faith would affect their political decisions

Ryan: "I don't see how a person can separate their personal faith from their political stands"

"assaulting the religious freedoms of americans by allowing choice"

Oh no! We don't want Americans to have a choice! Their choices must be dictated by the Christian Religion!

Biden: "I refuse to impose my personal beliefs on others, I do not believe that we have a right to tell others how they can decide for themselves"

 

[SixNein]

Anyone feel "Talk about religion and abortion" was an improper question?

Yes, I thought it was inappropriate.

 

[Evo]

Yes, I thought it was inappropriate.

It's a major issue, about if religion should dictate everyone's life even if you do not believe in that religion. It was an extremely important question.

 

[Evo]

So Biden won.

 

[Vorde]

I think overall, Biden did exactly what he needed to do to comeback for what I think was a frankly awful debate from Obama last week.
Ryan did fine, but I think he really was unable to respond when Biden put him in the spotlight, and I think that really hurt the Romney/Ryan campaign.
As a democrat, I think this debate reclaimed all the territory lost last week and then some, but I'm not sure if that holds from an independent view.

Edit: I was 'praying' that as an answer to the question "how does religion effect your choices" Biden would say "It doesn't". I guess I don't get everything I want.

 

[Evo]

Edit: I was 'praying' that as an answer to the question "how does religion effect your choices" Biden would say "It doesn't". I guess I don't get everything I want.

I guess you missed his answer.

Biden: "I refuse to impose my personal beliefs on others, I do not believe that we have a right to tell others how they can decide for themselves

 

[Vorde]

I guess you missed his answer.

You're right, but I was hoping for a more firm response. I of course agreed with what he said. As the analysis from Thirteen (my news station, I'm not sure if it's a national thing, but I think it is) said afterwards, the pause from Ryan on the abortion question killed him.

 

[SixNein]

It's a major issue, about if religion should dictate everyone's life even if you do not believe in that religion. It was an extremely important question.

Yea, but I already new the answer to it. Either one would commit political suicide unless they said one thing or another.

I'm just waiting for someone to mention inequality in these debates, and it would also be nice for a little discussion about infrastructure.

 

[chemisttree]

Ryan: "I don't see how a person can separate their personal faith from their political stands"

"assaulting the religious freedoms of americans by allowing choice"

Oh no! We don't want Americans to have a choice! Their choices must be dictated by the Christian Religion!

Ryan never said these statements. Your characterization of his actual answer is 180 degrees from what he actually answered.

"I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith. Our faith informs us in everything we do. My faith informs me about how to take care of the vulnerable. About how to make sure that people have a chance in life. Now, you want to ask basically about why I'm pro-life? It's not simply about my Catholic faith. That's a factor, of course. But it's also because of reason and science. You know, I think about... ten and a half years ago. My wife Janna and I went to Mercy Hospital in Janesville, where I was born, for our seven week ultrasound for our first born child. And we saw that heartbeat. That little baby was the shape of a beanie. And to this day we have nicknamed our first born child, Liza, "Beanie". Now I believe that life begins at conception. That's why... those are the reasons I'm pro-life. Now I understand this is a difficult issue and I respect people who don't agree with me on this but the policy of a Romney administration will be to oppose abortion with the exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother. What troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of these issues. Look at what they're doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They're infringing upon our first freedom. The freedom of religion by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals. Our church should not have to sue our federal government to maintain their religious liberties. And with respect to abortion, The Democratic party used to say they want it to be safe, legal and rare. Now? They support it without restriction and with taxpayer funding. Taxpayer funding in Obamacare, taxpayer funding with foreign aid. The Vice President himself went to China and said that he sympathized or wouldn't second guess their one child policy of forced abortion and sterilizations. That, to me, is pretty extreme."

and,

"All I'm saying is if you believe that life begins at conception, that therefore doesn't change the definition of life. That's a principle. The policy of a Romney administration is to oppose abortion with exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother. Now, I've got to take issue with the Catholic church and religious liberty. If they agree with you then why would keep suing you? It's a distinction without a difference."

and,

We don't think that unelected judges should make this decision. That people through their elected representatives and reaching a consensus in society through the democratic process should make this determination."

 

[Evo]

Ryan never said these statements. Your characterization of his actual answer is 180 degrees from what he actually answered.

I was writing as he was speaking.

His actual quote, same as the meaning of what i posted

"I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith. Our faith informs us in everything we do

Look at what they're doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They're infringing upon our first freedom

Religious liberties does not mean imposing religious views and restrictions on those that do not believe in such a thing. What about the rights and freedoms of non christian Americans?

If a christian doesn't want an abortion, doesn't want to take birth control, no one is forcing them to, they have their rights fully intact, and no one is even suggesting to take those rights away. It is this group of religious people that want to take the right to choose away from everyone, and that is wrong, IMO.

We cannot allow our country to be taken over and controlled by religious extremists that would impose their personal beliefs on everyone and take the right to personal choice away.

 

[phinds]

I saw an interesting, and completely expected and believable, statement by one of the talking heads on CNN after the debate was over. He said that in going over what seemed to be out on social media, what he found was that people from both camps were ecstatic that their guy had won so strongly and were in complete disbelief that anyone could think otherwise.

 

Anyone feel "Talk about religion and abortion" was an improper question?

Improper? This is a debate, and those are issues that matter to people. I don't get this improper questioning ought to be placed on the back-burner. That makes zero sense in a presidential debate. Ask them about their religion, ask them about church and state, ask them how much they believe in their doctrine and how much that influences them.

 

[chemisttree]

His actual quote, same as the meaning of what i posted

What you posted,

"assaulting the religious freedoms of americans by allowing choice"

is a gross mischaracterization of what he said. He said, "Now, you want to ask basically about why I'm pro-life? It's not simply about my Catholic faith. That's a factor, of course. But it's also because of reason and science." And he was referring to the requirement that Catholic charities, Catholic churches and Catholic hospitals are required to utilize insurance companies that provide coverage for abortion services and birth control. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops believe that the forcing of this requirement is an infringement of their religious liberty and conscience of Catholics.

Religious liberties does not mean imposing religious views and restrictions on those that do not believe is such a thing. What about the rights and freedoms of non christian Americans?

There are plenty of secular reasons not to kill babies. It isn't simply a religious thing as you have characterized it.

 

[Evo]

What you posted,


is a gross mischaracterization of what he said. He said, "Now, you want to ask basically about why I'm pro-life? It's not simply about my Catholic faith. That's a factor, of course. But it's also because of reason and science." And he was referring to the requirement that Catholic charities, Catholic churches and Catholic hospitals are required to utilize insurance companies that provide coverage for abortion services and birth control. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops believe that the forcing of this requirement is an infringement of their religious liberty and conscience of Catholics.



There are plenty of secular reasons not to kill babies. It isn't simply a religious thing as you have characterized it.

I posted the part I was trying to quote.

Look at what they're doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They're infringing upon our first freedom

This is from the official transcript. Ryan was referring to the religious aspect.

They're required to OFFER the insurance coverage to their non-religious employees or employees that wish to benefit from CONTRACEPTIVE services, it doesn't cover abortion, and only in their non-profit entities. Catholic businesses have won a ruling to avoid offering insurance.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/...e/health_care_reform/contraception/index.html

Sorry, had that backwards.

 

[chemisttree]

They're required to OFFER the insurance coverage to their non-religious employees or employees that wish to benefit from CONTRACEPTIVE services, it doesn't cover abortion, and only in their non-profit entities. Catholic businesses have won a ruling to avoid offering insurance.

If this were true, the administration would simply say that the Church has no standing in the matter. I haven't heard that yet but who knows? The Church believes that their various outreach activities such as Catholic Charities, the various Catholic hospitals, schools and universities, are indeed part of the Church. Thus, the Catholic church IS included. The administration is at odds with the US Catholic Bishops Conference as to what characterizes a "Church". They characterize the administration's exemption of "Church" as an extremely narrow "exemption" for some religious employers.

Edit. Sorry I missed your edit before I posted. You are right about it being about contraception rather than abortion.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Improper? This is a debate, and those are issues that matter to people.

Why the hell should it matter to others? If a woman wants to do something in her private life then leave it to her, her lawyer, her doctor, and whoever else is directly involved. She doesn't need bible thumping christians to tell her what she can and can't do with her body. They need to mind their business; it ISN'T their matter.

 

[micromass]

There are plenty of secular reasons not to kill babies. It isn't simply a religious thing as you have characterized it.

Characterizing abortion as "killing babies" also seems pretty wrong.

 

Biden was disingenuous in his claim that he did not vote for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00281

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

He also was a bit dishonest about his position on abortion, as he had once voted in favor of a constitutional amendment to overturn Roe v Wade (Human Life Federalism Amendment: http://www.nrlc.org/ObamaAbortionAgenda/BidenRyanvObamaabortionpolicy.html [Broken]).

Why the hell should it matter to others? If a woman wants to do something in her private life then leave it to her, her lawyer, her doctor, and whoever else is directly involved. She doesn't need bible thumping christians to tell her what she can and can't do with her body. They need to mind their business; it ISN'T their matter.

Because not everyone considers it just the woman's body, they consider it that there is a separate human being inside of the body that the State is permitting to be killed at the woman's wish if she pleases. IMO, both sides go to extremes. A one-cell zygote is not a human being. However, a late-term "fetus" I would argue it is stretching it to just act as if it is a blob of tissue that suddenly converts into a human being when born.

The law looks at it in different ways. If a pregnant woman is murdered for example, it can be charged as a double homicide. Otherwise though, the life inside isn't legally considered a human being until birth. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the abortion issue. It isn't number one on people's list of concerns right now.

 

Why the hell should it matter to others? If a woman wants to do something in her private life then leave it to her, her lawyer, her doctor, and whoever else is directly involved. She doesn't need bible thumping christians to tell her what she can and can't do with her body. They need to mind their business; it ISN'T their matter.

You clearly missed the entire point of what I was saying...

 

I felt that Biden was rude, condescending, childishly laughing, dishonest, and a poor display for the second highest US office. Obviously there are different opinions expressed here.
I am glad that this debate was available because there are uncommitted voters that may decide this election. While this will not be a major factor, debates illustrate so much better who these people really are than any campaign commercial.

 

[Angry Citizen]

If you want to watch Ryan win a debate, here's a link.

Youtube

If you prefer to see Biden win, I can't help you, perhaps the scifi channel has a website.

Lol! Biden's not a good debater.

I find these posts humorous. ha

Biden won. I freely admitted that Romney won the last debate, but this time, Biden won pretty decisively. Admittedly, Biden didn't wipe the floor with Ryan like Romney did with Obama, and Ryan got in some good punches, but overall, he was outclassed in just about every way. Biden just needed to turn down the disrespect. Sure, Ryan isn't very respectable because he's a follower of Ayn Rand, but Biden needed to come across more vice presidential.

Still, Ryan passes the test of being an acceptable "heartbeat away" guy, at least in the sense that his last name isn't Palin.

Speaking of which, what an interesting contrast between the Biden/Palin debate and the Biden/Ryan debate. I remember when I watched Biden/Palin, I was amused that Biden had this look of sombre respect glued onto his face. No such respect was seen here. This was Biden calling Romney's and Ryan's plan exactly what it is: malarkey.

 

I like Charles Krauthammer's assessment:

If you read the debate as a transcript, it was a tie.

If you listened on the radio, Biden won.

If you watched it on TV, Ryan won.

 

[Vorde]

I like Charles Krauthammer's assessment:

If you read the debate as a transcript, it was a tie.

If you listened on the radio, Biden won.

If you watched it on TV, Ryan won.

That's a interesting statement, but I don't think it's true. I think Biden did a really good job of showcasing where the Ryan/Romney really didn't have a plan. This I think would have come across very clearly both in a transcript and on the radio.

I do however think that Biden appeared quite condescending. But even from an independent standpoint, I don't see how that could have made Ryan seem to win.

 

Vorde: I don't really want to divert this thread with details but it was obvious that Biden/Obama have no plan other than more of the same. They are of the mindset that policies are delivered from Mount Horeb in 2000 page manuscripts and the legislators are to rubber stamp them. The Romney/Ryan plan of setting a framework of reform and letting the legislature hammer out the details in a bipartisan, public process is alien and incomprehensible to the Vice President.

Regarding your second point: Anyone who can maintain their focus and composure in the face of such childish antics is revealing a depth of character and trustworthiness. If I didn't understand a word of English, I would vote for Ryan over Biden based on this debate.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Characterizing abortion as "killing babies" also seems pretty wrong.

Wrong because it's inaccurate, or because you don't like the connotation?

 

[Angry Citizen]

Vorde: I don't really want to divert this thread with details but it was obvious that Biden/Obama have no plan other than more of the same. They are of the mindset that policies are delivered from Mount Horeb in 2000 page manuscripts and the legislators are to rubber stamp them. The Romney/Ryan plan of setting a framework of reform and letting the legislature hammer out the details in a bipartisan, public process is alien and incomprehensible to the Vice President.

Look skippy, I don't know what you've heard, but reality is different. If anything, Obama and company are far too hands-off when it comes to the legislature. He gave them carte blanche to draft a healthcare plan without significant input from the President. One of the parts of the bill that Obama championed, namely the public option, never saw the light of day because they attempted bipartisanship with an intransigent Republican minority. Ryan represents the very worst of Congressional partisanship and rancor. Seriously, this guy champions the destruction of the welfare state, and then screams when no one on the other side wants anything to do with it.

If I didn't understand a word of English, I would vote for Ryan over Biden based on this debate.

I think that fact was not in dispute even if Ryan were to have collapsed on stage in a blubbering fit, saying "you win, you win". Some people are just that partisan.