Voter disenfranchisement contd.

[Gokul43201]

From the Columbus Dispatch :

Thousands of Ohio voters are at risk of not having their ballots counted on Election Day under state guidelines for handling provisional ballots, critics of those rules say.

Some are even calling the situation "the next hanging chad," a reference to problems in the 2000 presidential election. ...

Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell recently issued a directive to county election officials saying they are allowed to count provisional ballots only from voters who go to the correct polling location for their home address.

Voting-rights groups had pushed for a more liberal directive allowing votes for at least the presidential and statewide offices to be counted, even if a voter casts a provisional ballot in the wrong precinct.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/election/election-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/09/25/20040925-A1-02.html

From the Dayton Daily News :

Boards of elections told to strictly follow two provisions.
Voters-rights advocates are criticizing two recent decisions by Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell that they say will unfairly limit some people's ability to vote Nov. 2.

Blackwell's office has told county boards of elections to follow strictly two provisions in Ohio election law:

One requires Ohio voter registration cards be printed on thick, 80-pound stock paper.

The other ordered boards to strictly interpret the rules regarding provisional ballots, the ones cast by voters who move before the election but are still registered in Ohio.

The paper-stock issue is frustrating Montgomery County Board of Elections officials, who have a backlog of registrations to complete. If they get an Ohio voter registration card on paper thinner than required, they are mailing a new card out to the voter. But if they still have the backlog by the registration deadline, Oct. 4, voters will not have another chance to get their correct paperwork in, said Steve Harsman, deputy director of the Montgomery County board.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/092904W.shtml

More recently, from the Dispatch :

A federal judge yesterday ordered the state to change its guidelines for handling provisional ballots in the Nov. 2 election, ruling that they violate federal law by not allowing voters to cast such ballots if they are in the right county but wrong precinct.

U.S. District Judge James G. Carr in Toledo ordered Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell to issue new guidelines that comply with the federal Help America Vote Act by 4 p.m. Monday.

"Unless Ohio’s election officials receive accurate guidance on how to implement HAVA, the risk is great, indeed certain, that persons entitled to vote provisionally will not be given that opportunity," Carr wrote in his 37-page ruling.

Blackwell called Carr’s ruling "a misinterpretation" of HAVA and immediately filed notice for an expedited appeal with the 6 th Circuit Court of Appeals.

He also is seeking a delay of Carr’s ruling today but plans to issue the new guidelines if the delay is denied, according to Richard G. Lillie, a lawyer representing the state.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/election/election-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/10/15/20041015-A1-04.html



I can smell the lawsuits already...can you ?

 

[check]

Jeez, they've known they've had a huge problem for at least four years and they STILL can't get this right.

Anyone else think that a federal election should have the same standard across the nation?

 

[fourier jr]

with private voter registration, how could anything go wrong? :rofl:

 

[plover]

Some links to sites covering voting issues:

Verified Voting
http://electionline.org/index.jsp
Black Box Voting (Bev Harris' site)

 

[plover]

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-19/109811125210550.xml&storylist=newsmichigan :

Land said there have been some reports of calls made to Ann Arbor and southern Wayne County residents by people identifying themselves as members of the state bureau of elections or local clerk's offices. They are telling residents the deadline to apply for an absent voter ballot has passed and are asking that completed ballots be sent to the wrong place.

 

[Tsu]

and Pennsylvania
http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/04294/398767.stm

 

[Moonbear]

Most of the issues presented here really are disturbing, but there's one I've heard over and over as an OH issue that I don't understand what the problem is. The requirement that voters have to show up to the right polling location doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Why would people go to the wrong location? I just got a card in the mail today reminding me of that location in the event I've somehow forgotten since the last election. If someone is going to the wrong location, they aren't getting the right ballot. There are local issues on each ballot, so you need to go to the right place, or else you're voting on the wrong issues. I thought the reason for provisional ballots was for situations where some snafu left their name off the register at the polling location even though they were registered and were in the right place. The other reason for expecting someone to go to a specific location where their name is recorded is to prevent people from voting multiple times in multiple locations.

The 80 lb paper issue is insane though. I read that even some Secretary of State's offices had lighter stock paper used than that, so people registering in the correct location and giving their registration to the right person still might not have qualified by that rule.

 

[Gokul43201]

Do local issues on the ballot change from one precinct to another, within a county ?

I think the 80lb paper rule is more of a problem (than it appears to be) because of the large number of young voters than are printing registration forms off of a website. I know someone that printed his from MTV.com. I'm not sure if it was accepted.

 

[Tsu]

Annexation issues are precinct driven, I believe. Possibly some water and sewer projects as well. Then there are city and county bonds and measures... I DO love elections.

 

[kat]

School board members are also precinct issues.

 

[ray b]

if we must have this silly outdated electoral college vote
why must we use a winner take all system in each state
even if no one gets 50%+1?

the votes are by district for congress
why should not the electoral college reps be by district too?
with the extra 2 for the senators ONLY by state winner

BUT ONE MAN ONE VOTE IS A BETTER SYSTEM
and add a run off like in most other elections
so the people's votes pick the winner
not a silly outdated system that is unfair and unequal
and allows a winner to lose and a loser to win?

 

[Gokul43201]

Can't say I really disagree...I too think a "winner takes all" system is simply another term for "ridiculous approximation".

Can someone enlighten me on the benefits of this system (except for picking senators, for which it may be used) ?

 

[onegermanbeerglass]

Gladly. Let me first say, before disagreeing w/ ray b, that I liked his comments in the Gibson thread.

The Electoral College serves two key purposes. First, our founding fathers recognized the trend of growing cities and diminishing farmlands. I suspect they also saw the trend of technology yielding better crop returns. In their planning for our country, they took those factors into account.

The problem the popular vote has is that it isn't fair. While it may seem more fair, what it does is create a system which favors those living in cities and diminishes the value of rural areas. A good example is the 2000 elecetion.

In the 2000 presidential election, Gore won the popular vote by 5000 votes. If you exclude all votes cast in New York City & Los Angeles, regardless of whom they voted for, Bush would have had the poppular vote by 1,000,000 (yes, Million) votes. The result is that laws would favor cities an urban populations, as polititians sought to gain the popular vote.

Further more, states who have the minimum 2 electoral college votes, would be deemed unimportant by politicians. As a result, smaller population states would be disregarded by the government. Something like 90% of our population lives in 10% of the land. The Electoral College balances the importance of population with the importance of land.

That's the first important part, the second is:

We already have a popular vote for the control of the country, it's called the US Senate. Our system is designed such that the Senate, the more pure representatives of the people, are choosen by popular vote. The president, who represents more than just the people, is elected by an electoral college, capable of being affected by like-minded, intelligent people. This is an established counter balance to the US Senate.

The founding fathers knew that the average person was not a learned intellectual and follower of politics and events, both locally and globally. Thus, the system was created to balance the representation of individuals, with a need for a strong and capable government not completely beholden to the wants of individuals, but instead the needs of the whole.

 

[onegermanbeerglass]

To address the actual topic of this thread, here's a little more info for you:

Bush Campaign: Hired Lawyers for Recounts, $6 Million raised for recounts.

Kerry Campaign: Hired Lawyers for Recounts, $3.5 Million raised for recounts.

Also, Kerry made an inquiry w/ the FEC regarding the allocation and sources of funding for federal election recounts.

Also, each individual provisional ballot is concidered a separate legal case, once it has been cast, even though counting methodology can be addressed in individual lawsuits, covering more than one ballot, but will likely be one county at a time.


As for a good replacement system:
Same Day Registration - increases voter turn out.
Photo ID Required - reduces fraud.
Free state photo ID at age 18 - avoids the ID=discrimination arguement.

I would also like to see the inclusion of, in addition to photo ID, a requirement of a piece of mail, addressed to the voter, postmarked within 30 days, and from the precinct you're voting in, as a requirement.

Me personally, I live in a state w/ same day registration. I take with me:
Driver's License
Passport
Social Security Card
Piece of Mail (as defined above)

Usually I'm already registered, now that I'm not moving eavery year or two, but I prefer to be safe and like my vote to count.

I wish others took it this seriously.

 

[check]

The Electoral College serves two key purposes. First, our founding fathers recognized the trend of growing cities and diminishing farmlands. I suspect they also saw the trend of technology yielding better crop returns. In their planning for our country, they took those factors into account.

I always thought it was because the founding fathers never actually completely trusted the people to chose their government. :tongue2:

 

[Gokul43201]

Thanks for the background, beerglass.

I would also like to see the inclusion of, in addition to photo ID, a requirement of a piece of mail, addressed to the voter, postmarked within 30 days, and from the precinct you're voting in, as a requirement.

And for the homeless ?

 

[onegermanbeerglass]

In order to vote you must have residency, that's already the law in most states.

Ironically, our precinct voting set up already penalizes the homeless right to vote.

I'm not really worried about the homeless vote anyways. While technically a right, you know the homeless would simply be used to sway the vote anyways, so why make it easy.

Oh, and in case that's not good enough:

In most populoous areas, you can claim residence and receive mail at a shelter. With a free ID and mail sent to a shelter, you would have the ability to vote within that system.

It would also allow us to track how many homeless people voted, and that could also be considered a valuable statistic, especially in questionables elections on matters of voter fraud.

 

[Moonbear]

Do local issues on the ballot change from one precinct to another, within a county ?

I think the 80lb paper rule is more of a problem (than it appears to be) because of the large number of young voters than are printing registration forms off of a website. I know someone that printed his from MTV.com. I'm not sure if it was accepted.

Yes, the issues on the ballot are different from precinct to precinct. There are ballot issues specifically relating to the different towns and cities in each county, such as referendums that will affect property taxes.

I'm worried about that 80lb paper rule preventing the young voters who would be more likely to vote for Kerry from being allowed to vote. If they put the registration form on a website, then they shouldn't be picky about what paper you use to print it on.

 

[Gokul43201]

I just heard that Taft's rescinded the 80 lb paper rule (I hope that's right)