War bringing economic chaos to states.

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  • Thread starter amp
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  • #1
NYs Mayor Bloomberg quiped "...if the troops in Iraq received as much fed aid as NY, they would be conducting the war with bows and arrows."
Too many states in the throes of severe economic troubles are forced to pay for much increased security without the help of federal funds that was promised to them by the Prez, especially NY where he visited ground zero and vowed to send packages of aid. How is it in your neck of the woods?
 

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  • #2
kat
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In our neck of the woods we'll do as we've always done during times of economic difficulty. Cut back, make do and pitch in. We're looking at big cuts, and our wise state leadership has decided to make those cuts..right across the board...share the pain! We'll survive.
 
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  • #3
I'm sure you will make do Kat,

what about the elderly and others on fixed incomes which barely cover their cost of living (I talking food and medication). What about the children?
 
  • #4
kat
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Originally posted by amp
what about the elderly and others on fixed incomes which barely cover their cost of living (I talking food and medication). What about the children?

Well..we are talking neck of the woods here, no?
Where I live (small town Maine, very small town) We still regularly stop and check on our ederly, whether we are related or not, we still bring those who are having a tough time a home cooked meal, a side of beef, a bit of venision..a leg of pork..our extra produce from our gardens. If someone is not able to afford money for medicine or medical care, the community has and will make up the differance, find or raise the money. That's just the way it is, the way it should be.
 
  • #5
Njorl
Science Advisor
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Originally posted by amp
what about the elderly and others on fixed incomes which barely cover their cost of living (I talking food and medication). What about the children?

The idea is, that spending money on the war now, and spending more to try to counter the short-term increase in the likelyhood of terrorism, we will need to spend less on counter-terrorism in the future. The concept is certainly logical. The question is are the facts correct. I think that we won't know the long-term effects on terrorism for quite a while. They will depend on how the rest of the war goes, and how rebuilding is done.

That being said, the $750 billion dollar tax-cut at this time is absolutely insane.

Njorl
 
  • #6
The tax cut borders on treason, and teh defense bugdet, if it follows the trends of past years, is going to be laden down with so much ork that it can only make us LESS safe.
 
  • #7
Oh, and don't forget that teh government is going to start closing down public schools that cannot keep up...even as funds go WAY down.
 
  • #8
Evolution at work. Isn't it grand!

I'm going to move to Kat's neighborhood. It sounds like they have their act together up there.
 
  • #9
Evolution at work? We're talking about kids here...kids going hungry, kids not having a chance. That's cool, I guess, and completely un-American.
 
  • #10
It's really sad when you see irresponsible adults bringing kids into a world in which the adults themselves have trouble making it. So for example, in the Philipines, the children end up living in and surviving off of trash dumps. And it's all my fault? Pull your head out.
 
  • #11
Extrapolating from your response Alias,

who needs civilization, charge ahead back to the stone age...Seriously,Kat your community has a lot to teach the rest of the country! But unfortunately, many of the elderly and children are not so blessed to have that sort of support. Njorl, they plan (the republicans)to make huge cuts in headstart, medicare, medicaid, pensions for retired railroad workers, ect. many who can least afford the types of cuts they are proposing to pay for the tax cut for the wealthy. In essence, they are taking from the poor to give to the rich and trying to hide those cuts in the wording. I saw a congressional hearing on this via streaming video @ MSNBC broadband.
 
  • #12
Originally posted by Alias
It's really sad when you see irresponsible adults bringing kids into a world in which the adults themselves have trouble making it. So for example, in the Philipines, the children end up living in and surviving off of trash dumps. And it's all my fault? Pull your head out.

Nevertheless, in the America I grew up in, we don't make children suffer for the mistakes of their parents...are you a member of the Taliban? That is an attitude they would agree with.
 
  • #13
I'm not stopping you from being a philanthropist. How does that make me a member of the Taliban?
 
  • #14
No Alias, probably not Taliban, more like

Lenin,Stalin and a mix of NKs Kim. That doesn't sound like the compassionate American to me, the type of American that makes America the place the worlds immigrants flock to.
 
  • #15
You are saying that only the children of teh rich deserve to have good schools...no, not Taliban, but similar to the Hindu caste system, I suppose. Again, in the Amerca that you supposedly love, those attitudes are frowned upon.
 
  • #16
Posted by Zero

You are saying that only the children of teh rich deserve to have good schools...no, not Taliban, but similar to the Hindu caste system, I suppose. Again, in the Amerca that you supposedly love, those attitudes are frowned upon.

Posted by amp

Lenin,Stalin and a mix of NKs Kim. That doesn't sound like the compassionate American to me, the type of American that makes America the place the worlds immigrants flock to.

The above quotes are examples of the shrieking blame mongers of the left that wish to cram their communist and socialist ideas down the throats of the rest of the world. Their socialistic, liberal ideology asserts that the mistakes of one man be paid for by the group by mandate of the government. This is the primary cause of the proliferation of personal irresponsibility. This, of course, leads to more mistakes, and the cycle of failure continues.

By contrast, the utopian nature of Kat's neighborhood is created by the will of the individual and not the mandate of the government. Government mandated welfare creates resentment in those honest hard workers, driving them to be resentful of the less fortunate.

And please show me where I said "only children of the rich deserve to have good schools..." Good greif!
 
  • #17
Whos blaming, I was commenting on your post

you appear not to care that you too may be affected by mismanagement of our economy. But I guess being able to pay for your health care is no prob for you or you never get injured or sick. I guess you don't have children so your not worried that their education will become even more substandard. I could be wrong.
 
  • #18
Originally posted by Alias
The above quotes are examples of the shrieking blame mongers of the left that wish to cram their communist and socialist ideas down the throats of the rest of the world. Their socialistic, liberal ideology asserts that the mistakes of one man be paid for by the group by mandate of the government. This is the primary cause of the proliferation of personal irresponsibility. This, of course, leads to more mistakes, and the cycle of failure continues.

By contrast, the utopian nature of Kat's neighborhood is created by the will of the individual and not the mandate of the government. Government mandated welfare creates resentment in those honest hard workers, driving them to be resentful of the less fortunate.

And please show me where I said "only children of the rich deserve to have good schools..." Good greif!

Here's an example of sloganeering from right-wing sourses, instead of your own ideas.
 
  • #19
russ_watters
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what about the elderly and others on fixed incomes which barely cover their cost of living
Since the income is fixed, an economic slowdown does NOTHING to those people. In principle however, I reject the idea of a fixed income: If you didn't work for the money you don't deserve it. I am in favor of getting rid of social security because I am responsible enough to save for my own retirement.
Evolution at work? We're talking about kids here...kids going hungry, kids not having a chance. That's cool, I guess, and completely un-American.
Zero, Alias's point is that public schools that fail are replaced with BETTER schools. THATS evolution. In philadelphia for example we have semi-private (state funded) charter schools. The net effect is an INCREASE in the quality of education.
Their socialistic, liberal ideology asserts that the mistakes of one man be paid for by the group by mandate of the government. This is the primary cause of the proliferation of personal irresponsibility. This, of course, leads to more mistakes, and the cycle of failure continues.
[stands up and applauds] I can't understand why so many people are in favor of a system of government that REWARDS failure and PUNISHES success. That is NOT freedom and it has proven itself to NOT work.
 
  • #20
Russ,

First, social security is usually paid for by those working. Second, so what do those on fixed incomes do when the cost of living increases(rent,morgage rates,medicine,food). Third, its not just the slow down there are big cuts aimed at those who are the most needy. Finally, how do you suppose the states will support those schools, Russ, when they don't have the money for basic services?
 
  • #21
russ_watters
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First, social security is usually paid for by those working
Which is precisely why I don't like it, amp. Can you imagine how much money you could retire on if you put 15% of your income into a decent investment portfolio instead of social security?
Second, so what do those on fixed incomes do when the cost of living increases(rent,morgage rates,medicine,food).
They increase proportionally.
Third, its not just the slow down there are big cuts aimed at those who are the most needy
I never had a problem with helping people who are needy. My problem is with helping people who are NOT needy, just lazy or irresponsible. The entire purpose of social security is to FORCE people to save for retirement.
Finally, how do you suppose the states will support those schools, Russ, when they don't have the money for basic services?
Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. My state isn't bankrupt and has plenty of money to adequately fund schools. Shifting the funding from one place to another doesn't change the amount of funding available.
 
  • #22
I wonder about people who think it is ok for other human beings to stave to death, or freeze because they can't afford heat, or allowing children to suffer for the mistakes of their parents. Doesn't that fall under the category of sociopathic behavior?
 
  • #23
^^^ I think nowadays they call it "compassionate conservatism."
 
  • #24
Originally posted by russ_watters
Zero, Alias's point is that public schools that fail are replaced with BETTER schools. THATS evolution. In philadelphia for example we have semi-private (state funded) charter schools. The net effect is an INCREASE in the quality of education.

Are you claiming that poor inner city schools are going to be replaced by good quality private school that poor inner city kids will be able to afford to attend?!?
 
  • #25
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
Are you claiming that poor inner city schools are going to be replaced by good quality private school that poor inner city kids will be able to afford to attend?!?
Zero, I encourage you to look into the concepts of a "charter school" and "voucher." Neither are what you are talking about.
I wonder about people who think it is ok for other human beings to stave to death, or freeze because they can't afford heat, or allowing children to suffer for the mistakes of their parents. Doesn't that fall under the category of sociopathic behavior?
Zero, as bad as you want it to be, its nowhere near that bad. The number of people in the US who starve to death each year can be counted on the fingers of one hand for example. And when exactly did I say children should suffer for the mistakes of their parents? The idea of public school is to give kids opportunities to make their OWN way in the world regardless of the failures of their parents.

All I am saying is that people need to be responsible for their OWN mistakes. Thats the double edged sword of freedom that so many liberals don't like. You are equally free to succeed and fail. If you choose failure you need to live with that choice. Thats freedom. You want it both ways. It doesn't work that way. Either you have freedom and personal responsibility or no personal responsibility and no freedom.
 
  • #26
Russ,

None of the states are bankrupt ...Yet. And there is probably a way they can stay solvent even if they don't have any money(kinda like the federal gov't)by running up deficits.

They increase proportionally.
not when they're cut disproportionately.

Which is precisely why I don't like it, amp. Can you imagine how much money you could retire on if you put 15% of your income into a decent investment portfolio instead of social security?
With the direction the market is heading I don't think so.

I never had a problem with helping people who are needy. My problem is with helping people who are NOT needy, just lazy or irresponsible. The entire purpose of social security is to FORCE people to save for retirement.
Its not only Soc Sec, there are other entitlements.

Zero, way to go with that last post some people either don't accept reality or have a much romanticized notion of the way it is.
 
  • #27
russ_watters
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With the direction the market is heading I don't think so.
So you are saying you think the decline in the stock market is permanent? Really? Doesn't that mean the US economy will decline forever as well? (clarification: the US economy as measured by the gdp has been growing since a quarter after 9/11).

If you don't like the stock market, pick another investment vehicle. The point is, saving an equal amount to social security on your own if invested wisely (read: extremely conservatively) will yield you FAR more money to retire on than social security.
 
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  • #28
Originally posted by russ_watters

Zero, as bad as you want it to be, its nowhere near that bad. The number of people in the US who starve to death each year can be counted on the fingers of one hand for example. And when exactly did I say children should suffer for the mistakes of their parents? The idea of public school is to give kids opportunities to make their OWN way in the world regardless of the failures of their parents.


Well, in your fantasy world, things are just wonderful, unless people just don't try hard enough. Here on planet earth, however, public schools are funded by local property taxes, which means that children in rich neighborhoods have a better school than most poor children. Children in poor schools also get teh least experienced, and least competent teachers. They DON'T get a fair shake, and with budget cuts, and moronic voucher ideas, they never will.
 
  • #29
So what would you propose as a solution, Zero?
 
  • #30
Originally posted by Alias
So what would you propose as a solution, Zero?

I would suggest socialism...but you think that is automatically evil. America profits in the long run by giving children as equal a chance as possible. Long term, if we take local property taxes, and spread them equally on a statewide level, we will achieve closer to academic equality. That would require that some of your money maybe going for some child other than yours, but that is what being in a society is all about.
 
  • #31
I agree. The problem I have is why limit it to each state. After all that kind of arbitrary line is what happens at the local level with school tax districts. Why shouldn't there be one tax for education, one account in washington, and identical schools all over the US.

Also, it shouldn't stop at grade 12. There should be free education all the way through PhD.

And, if someone wants to build a private school and only allow Samoans over 350 pounds with half their heads shaved, go right ahead.
 
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