# War Crimes in Gaza

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mjsd
Homework Helper
Since the rules are not set by us, our interpretation is
So then, when whoever wrote the law dies, then the law is out the window?
I don't think I have said that?! Anyway, I think you confused with the term "us" used in my sentence. It really just mean "us", as in you and me only, and not the "us", as in the community as a whole.

Wow, I suppose if I were a psychopath I'd go on a killing spree and take some peoples homes from them know that I know that the old laws against such things don't apply anymore.
If you were a psychopath, indeed you would kill without remorse, because in your view, you are not doing anything wrong. Society judges you in the perceived "majority view" of what is right and wrong. However, this view may change with time, information available, as well as who is in power.

In the current discussion of "war crimes", I see a lot of disagreement arising from the issue such as: what is and what is not self-defence, or who is using or not using human shield.... which immediately brings me back to my original statement that "interpretation" is everything.

I am sure that some would argue that torture is ok if it may keep America safe (especially straight after an terrorist attack when the emotions/pains are high), while there must be an equally large section of the community who would disagree. So WHO is right?

Sometimes, ppl do not just argue about the actions, but also intention as you would be well aware. That's what I was trying to point out... ie. not black/white whether something is definitely correct or wrong. Unless you forego the discussion on intention/motive, then perhaps it would be more clear cut.

mjsd
Homework Helper
Better or worse is subjective, but actions are actions and are undeniable. People know what they are doing, and truth is not subjective. If people abide to a common simplistic morality such as, 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you", or something of that sort, then we can all live in a better world and eliminate senselessness which can threaten us all.
Sure, simple moral view as such is helpful "If people....", well, that's a very big IF unfortunately. Besides, YOUR definition of what is a "better world" may not share by all either. As a result, although it is nice, it may not be workable. That doesn't mean one should forego such nice ideals completely, we just need to know its limits.

If you murder someone, then no one should feel sorry when you be murdered. If you steal from people, then no one should care if your things be stolen. The world largely operates in terms of respect. If you don' show respect, then you are not entitled to respect.

If you violate basic human rights laws, then you lose respect and should no longer have the benefit of protection under those codes. If you wish for your rights to be protected, then you must not violate the rights of others.
I understand what you are trying to say and I agree with the logic (to certain point). The difficulty however is that rarely in the real world do you have someone or some group who is totally evil, in other words, they may not break the rule completely, or they may have done some goods elsewhere etc. All this complicates the situation and suddenly you may not have a "clear cut" case as to whether someone has lost all the respect of others. Since there are so much gray area, and those being prosecuted always tend to exploit it (rightfully or otherwise), the "truth" may not be subjective, but where to "draw the line" is.

Hurkyl
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Pretending you have weapons is just as threatening as actually having them.
Well duh; that should be obvious (assuming the pretense is any good).

(Or was that the point you were actually trying to make? I can't tell)

kyleb
I don't think I have said that?! Anyway, I think you confused with the term "us" used in my sentence. It really just mean "us", as in you and me only, and not the "us", as in the community as a whole.

If you were a psychopath, indeed you would kill without remorse, because in your view, you are not doing anything wrong. Society judges you in the perceived "majority view" of what is right and wrong. However, this view may change with time, information available, as well as who is in power.
Ah, such mob rule has never appealed to me, but I do see where you were coming from now.

In the current discussion of "war crimes", I see a lot of disagreement arising from the issue such as: what is and what is not self-defence, or who is using or not using human shield.... which immediately brings me back to my original statement that "interpretation" is everything.

I am sure that some would argue that torture is ok if it may keep America safe (especially straight after an terrorist attack when the emotions/pains are high), while there must be an equally large section of the community who would disagree. So WHO is right?
Sure, like if I wanted to refer to day as "night", then I could argue it is a matter of interpretation and hence open to debate. If I can brainwash over half the population to follow me, would you consider me right?

Sometimes, ppl do not just argue about the actions, but also intention as you would be well aware. That's what I was trying to point out... ie. not black/white whether something is definitely correct or wrong. Unless you forego the discussion on intention/motive, then perhaps it would be more clear cut.
We should certainly avoid speculating our way to such decisions, but mob rule is full of speculation.

Art

So if country A invades country B, then country B will be committing a crime if it resists?
Is this support from you for the legitimacy of Palestinian resistance to Israel's occupation?

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kyleb
I am guessing he exploits the technicality of not recognizing Palestine as a country to avoid that.

peace upon u all

i'll express my own view about war ... there is a need of war only when there is a need of killing people and destroying live ... no excuse is enough to establish a project of killing so called "WAR" ..but u have the full right to defend your self when someone come intending to kill u

i think that war crimes in Gaza are not the subject .. it seems to me just like discussing "is sun in the sky in the midday ?"
the intrinsic point is how to reach justice and let criminals into courts ??

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/01/20091229274380583.html

best wishes

Alfi
Pretending you have weapons is just as threatening as actually having them.
In poker it's called a bluff. In an airport it's called stupid.
but, after they are determined to be 'mostly harmless', Should they be kicked some more to make sure they never ever pretend again?
Should the pretenders be occupied to ensure the pretense never becomes reality?

This gets to be a silly time war. You might be a future enemy, so We'll occupy you now.

kyleb
Yeah, falling for a bluff isn't preemption, it is precognition.

I think the interesting part of all this is that most of us here in the West see either a 'civilised' country putting down a rebellion, or an uncivilised country applying overwhelming military force to punish a rebellion, possible war-crimes, or since it's a civilised country and the rebels are all barbarian savages, no war-crimes; anyway, I don't think Western perceptions are important, regardless of the spin or what we (that is, the US) believe about it, the Arabs have all the time in the world.

Israel doesn't - it wants to effect something that simply will not survive history - South Africe, Germany, Romania, ...

All the Arabs/Palestinians need to do is wait it out; incidentally, is the US in its current near-bankrupt condition going to increase Israel's welfare payments? Is the rationale for the US, its workers (the ones who can find work), its commerce and industry, to support Israel economically and militarily?
This is why the US exists?

Art
Following the alleged (sic) illegal application of military force by Israel, Amnesty International has called for the UN to impose a weapons embargo. It will be interesting to see the new US administration's response.

Amnesty International urges Barack Obama to suspend military aid to Israel

Amnesty called for the UN Security Council to enact an arms embargo until mechanisms were put in place to ensure that equipment was not used to commit violations of international law.

"Israeli forces used white phosphorus and other weapons supplied by the USA to carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes," said Donatella Rovera, who headed an Amnesty fact-finding mission to southern Israel and Gaza.

"Their attacks resulted in the death of hundreds of children and other civilians, and massive destruction of homes and infrastructure."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Obama-to-suspend-military-aid-to-Israel.html

It seems the pressure for Israel to be held to account for it's murder of Gazan civilians is growing. There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict and the appointment of the right wing Netanyahu as Israel's new PM reliant on the support of the racist, ultra rightwing, Avigdor Lieberman and his Beiteinu Party can only accelerate this process.

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Appointing hardliners and becoming fanatical supporters of nationalism and its causes, are usually the beginning of the end for an effectively fascist ideology; the nationalist population tends to get tired of being called fascists, racists, war-criminals, etc, after a while.

Evo
Mentor
It seems the pressure for Israel to be held to account for it's murder of Gazan civilians is growing.
Stop the misinformation.

There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict.
I don't see any such shift in opinion.

Fifty-five percent (55%) of adults, however, believe the Palestinians are to blame for the current situation in Gaza, while 13% point the finger at the Israelis. Nearly one-third (32%) aren’t sure.

Sixty-seven percent (67%) of those who say they are following news out of Gaza Very Closely support Israel's military action, while 30% favor diplomacy.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/americans_closely_divided_over_israel_s_gaza_attacks [Broken]

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Stop the misinformation.
You should not use your moderation power to force your personal political opinions as truths here.

Evo
Mentor
You should not use your moderation power to force your personal political opinions as truths here.
He's stating that Israel "murdered" Palestinians. That's misinformation.

tiny-tim
Homework Helper
Amnesty International: "War Crimes by Hamas"

Following the alleged (sic) illegal application of military force by Israel, Amnesty International has called for the UN to impose a weapons embargo. It will be interesting to see the new US administration's response.
That (with the four-paragraph quotation which follows it) is a carefully deliberate one-sided summary of the Amnesty International report and news item …

both the report and the news item criticise both Israel and Hamas, and call for weapons embargos on both Israel and Hamas …
The human rights group said it found evidence that Israel and Hamas had both used weapons supplied from overseas to carry out attacks on civilians, accusing both sides of committing war crimes during the three-week conflict at the start of the year.
The report also said Hamas and other Palestinian groups should be subject to the embargo because they had committed war crimes by attacking Israeli towns with rockets.
… yet you select quotations, and write your own summary, leaving Hamas out completely

One-sided selectivity like this, giving a report a completely different slant, is yet another example of misinformation.

To be fair, of course, Amnesty International knows perfectly well that a weapons embargo on Hamas is unlikely to stop the very war crimes that Amnesty International is charging Hamas with.

Alfi
Re: War Crimes in Gaza
Originally Posted by Art View Post

It seems the pressure for Israel to be held to account for it's murder of Gazan civilians is growing.

Stop the misinformation.

There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict.

I don't see any such shift in opinion.

Fifty-five percent (55%) of adults, however, believe the Palestinians are to blame for the current situation in Gaza, while 13% point the finger at the Israelis. Nearly one-third (32%) aren’t sure.

Sixty-seven percent (67%) of those who say they are following news out of Gaza Very Closely support Israel's military action, while 30% favor diplomacy.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...s_gaza_attacks [Broken]
Actually, He's correct. There is a shift in positions. When I started reading about this whole topic I was fairly neutral in that I think both sides are wrong. That use of violence is not the best solution to any problem.
After reading and following questions and links, I can be counted as one of the undecided that is starting to point my finger more and more at Israel and it's American money connections.

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Evo
Mentor
Actually, He's correct. There is a shift in positions. When I started reading about this whole topic I was fairly neutral in that I think both sides are wrong. That use of violence is not the best solution to any problem.
After reading and following questions and links, I can be counted as one of the undecided that is starting to point my finger more and more at Israel and it's American money connections.
And others have shifted to Israel's side. Art made the claim that
There appears to be a major shift taking place in world opinion of just who the 'bad' guys are in this conflict.
I have seen no evidence of this.

More polls.

Sixty percent of Americans in the nationwide survey said they were sympathetic toward the Israelis, compared with 17 percent who supported the Palestinians, CNN reported today on its Web site. A recent European poll showed that 23 percent of French people said the Palestinian Hamas group was primarily responsible for the war while 18 percent mainly blamed Israel.

The CNN poll showed that 63 percent of Americans felt Israel was justified in taking military action, compared with 30 percent who disagreed. The poll of 1,245 adults was conducted Jan. 12-15, before the Israeli military campaign ended in a cease-fire on Jan. 17. Conducted by Opinion Research Corp., it had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Sympathy for Israel exceeded that for the Palestinians by a margin of 49 percent to 11 percent, according to the Pew poll. The results narrowed when respondents were questioned on Israel’s military action in Gaza, with 40 percent approving and 33 percent disapproving.

The Pew poll surveyed 1,503 adults Jan. 7-11, with a margin of error at plus or minus 3 percentage points.

The French poll, conducted by CSA, found that 28 percent of respondents blamed Israel and Hamas equally. That telephone survey questioned a representative nationwide sample of 958 people on Jan. 7-8. CSA didn’t report a margin of error on its Web site.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a2oCpwqqFTpw&refer=home [Broken]

More polls, and some showing history.

http://www.pollingreport.com/israel.htm

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I have seen no evidence of this.
But you provide very interesting numbers :

Code:
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|    (1)      |  sympathetic toward the Israelis | supported the Palestinians |
|    (2)      |  Hamas was responsible for war   | mainly blamed Israel       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  american   |              60%                 |             17%            |
|   french    |              23%                 |             18%            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Can the discrepancy mostly be attributed to the different statements between ligne (1) and (2) , or to the misinformation of one of the two groups of people ? Or is it that american and french people feel differently when it comes to human life and war, given the same situation ? Can this be explained simply at all, or are those numbers only confusing ?

I claim that american people and french people receive different information coverage. I do not intend to back up this claim, but it would certainly explain at least some of the discrepancy above. I further claim that misinformation can only be temporary when it comes to the history of war. Not that it will become perfectly accurate, but there will be something written someday in the books, that if everybody does not agree on, at least everybody knows the other's version. Assuming the hypothesis in this paragraph are correct, at some point, there will be a change which will take place, one way or another, to get back to a better agreement in the numbers above. Where am I going wrong in my understanding ?

edit
If given the number of people interviewed, one can not evaluate the uncertainty
CSA didn’t report a margin of error on its Web site.
then I'd be interested to know how the uncertainty can be evaluated otherwise !!?

But you provide very interesting numbers :

Code:
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|    (1)      |  sympathetic toward the Israelis | supported the Palestinians |
|    (2)      |  Hamas was responsible for war   | mainly blamed Israel       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  american   |              60%                 |             17%            |
|   french    |              23%                 |             18%            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Can the discrepancy mostly be attributed to the different statements between ligne (1) and (2) , or to the misinformation of one of the two groups of people ? Or is it that american and french people feel differently when it comes to human life and war, given the same situation ? Can this be explained simply at all, or are those numbers only confusing ?
American != French
as
Relationship between Americans and Israel != Relationship between French and Israel
Interests of Americans != French interests
American Involvement in the Middle East != http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7880453.stm" [Broken]

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American != French
So for you the difference can mostly be explained by the fact that those groups of people feel differently. Please realize that when it comes it was and human life, it seems to me, this is a very strong statement.

Evo
Mentor
Can the discrepancy mostly be attributed to the different statements between ligne (1) and (2) , or to the misinformation of one of the two groups of people ? Or is it that american and french people feel differently when it comes to human life and war, given the same situation ? Can this be explained simply at all, or are those numbers only confusing ?
I'd say that it is a number of things, different media exposure, different attitudes, different population demographics, France may also be more likely to have more Palestinians and/or people sympathetic to Palestinians than the US? The last is just a guess. I guess you would know the answer to that humanino.

I believe there was some mention in my first article about the difference in opinions between Europeans and Americans.

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So for you the difference can mostly be explained by the fact that those groups of people feel differently. Please realize that when it comes it was and human life, it seems to me, this is a very strong statement.
Uhh no, actually there's a big difference between Palestinians and Israelis. Palestinians are Muslims while Israelis are Jews (or "not Muslims ").

IMO, those numbers are meaningless. They are coming out of biased media or national interests. How many of those people actually understand the conflict?

kyleb
He's stating that Israel "murdered" Palestinians. That's misinformation.
"http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1066231.html" [Broken]" is what Amiststy cites, how are you differentiating that from murder?

By the way, I'm still wondering how you came to perpetuate the misinformation I inquired about https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2085150&postcount=55".

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IMO, those numbers are meaningless.
I have been living in both countries, and discussing with similar people (in the same academic environments, not bars or night clubs) and I think thouse numbers, as unpleasant as they are, are quite meaningful.