Was the USSR The Evil Empire ?

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In summary: So Germany never invaded France during WW2 to expand it's empire? After all, all they did was remove an unfriendly government and replace it with another French...No, the Nazi regime invaded France in 1940 in order to expand the Nazi empire.

Was the USSR "The Evil Empire"?


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  • #1
russ_watters
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Was the USSR "The Evil Empire"?

Straightforward question - I'll explain my answer after a number of people have voted.
 
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  • #2
How can I answer this when you are using subjective terms like "evil"? What is "evil," anyone who has a different morality system than you? Can the Scientific Method be used to prove this?
 
  • #3
Well, from my own stance don't have problem hitting 'YES'. Remains to be seen how coincides.
 
  • #4
First, as stated elsewhere, one can point to evil things done by an individual (e.g., Stalin), but not a country as a whole. Second, if one looks at how many times the Soviet Union was attacked throughout history and how many Russian lives were lost, versus how much "misery" the USSR has imposed on other countries, this begins to pale as well. If you are returning to the "evils" of communism versus capitalism, this is a debate with no conclusion. So I vote 'no."
 
  • #5
"Evil Empire" what a subjective term... I vote no, because it will be the same debate as USA "The Evil Empire".
 
  • #6
Considering the CCCP government's treatment of its own citizens, its respect for sovereign nations, its boundless corruption and militarization, my answer is a resounding and unambigious 'Yes'.

Keep in mind this question has nothing to do with the actual peoples of russia and occupied territories, or with WWII, or with the priniciples of Marxism, Communism, or Socialism.
 
  • #7
Informal Logic said:
First, as stated elsewhere, one can point to evil things done by an individual (e.g., Stalin), but not a country as a whole. Second, if one looks at how many times the Soviet Union was attacked throughout history and how many Russian lives were lost, versus how much "misery" the USSR has imposed on other countries, this begins to pale as well. If you are returning to the "evils" of communism versus capitalism, this is a debate with no conclusion. So I vote 'no."

I agree, the Soviet Union put scared most of the world half to death but in the end... what is really evil? A few leaders that were in charge of everything or an entire nation? I mean its hard to think that you could go into the country back then and find your average joe soviet and study his life and call him evil. Trying ot stay alive with the KGB always around making you a tad bit nervous while hoping there's even any bread at the store for you to buy... don't see how one could call the poor guy evil. The bastards ordering spy missions on the US and bribing US officials or ordering invasions of other countries to spread its empire however... yes... i could call them evil.
 
  • #8
Pengwuino said:
I agree, the Soviet Union put scared most of the world half to death but in the end... what is really evil? A few leaders that were in charge of everything or an entire nation? I mean its hard to think that you could go into the country back then and find your average joe soviet and study his life and call him evil. Trying ot stay alive with the KGB always around making you a tad bit nervous while hoping there's even any bread at the store for you to buy... don't see how one could call the poor guy evil. The bastards ordering spy missions on the US and bribing US officials or ordering invasions of other countries to spread its empire however... yes... i could call them evil.

Is that the USSR or the USA you are referring to Penqwuino? as most of the items you list apply equally to both and so by your definition the USA must be the current 'evil empire'
 
  • #9
I voted Yes. The USSR was certainly an empire, and right to the end they were afflicting their people with gulags and insane asylums for dissidents. Yeah, it was truly evil.

What the US does or did in the past is not relevant to the question.
 
  • #10
rachmaninoff said:
Considering the CCCP government's treatment of its own citizens, its respect for sovereign nations, its boundless corruption and militarization

that's precisely what people don't like about the US government! don't you people get it? :cry:
 
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  • #11
Art said:
Is that the USSR or the USA you are referring to Penqwuino? as most of the items you list apply equally to both and so by your definition the USA must be the current 'evil empire'

You are wrong Art.
US is notoriously poor in spy missions and has never invaded a country to expand its "empire" in modern times.
 
  • #12
sid_galt said:
You are wrong Art.
US is notoriously poor in spy missions and has never invaded a country to expand its "empire" in modern times.

So Germany never invaded France during WW2 to expand it's empire? After all, all they did was remove an unfriendly government and replace it with another French one more inclined to see things their way (the Vichy government). Sound familiar?
 
  • #13
I voted no. Evil was too strong of a word.
 
  • #14
Expanding an empire can also mean making/forcing other countries to support them(open up their markets so that America's greedy corporations can sell its goods there and earn money) and not just being able to collect tax from and have its flag flying in the territories which it has captured/invaded.
 
  • #15
Evil is too expansive a word to describe a nation, besides they were evil in the eyes of the U.S., because they impeded its growth, so from my experience of how the U.S.S.R. behaved towards countries without an agenda that included military, political, and economic hegemony, I have to say no.

The bastards ordering spy missions on the US

Have you ever heard of the U2 incident under Eisenhower? This is freakin ironic. Because they didn't want to have open skies on either side, Khruschev responded no to Eisenhower's offer. But Eisenhower went on anyway spying on the Russians with U-2 planes, the Russians had no clue until they shot one of the planes and the pilot blabbered it all and you want to talk about spying?
 
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  • #16
Dennis4 said:
How can I answer this when you are using subjective terms like "evil"? What is "evil," anyone who has a different morality system than you? Can the Scientific Method be used to prove this?
Yes, I know its subjective, but Ronald Reagan coined the term "Evil Empire" when he used it to describe the USSR. So that's where it comes from - use that context to shape your definition.
 
  • #17
Informal Logic said:
First, as stated elsewhere, one can point to evil things done by an individual (e.g., Stalin), but not a country as a whole.
That's another thing that I need to clarify. In this context, when referring to "the USA" or "the USSR," it is not the citizens that are being referred to, its the government. In fact, how the government treats the citizens is a key issue here.
 
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  • #18
klusener said:
Evil is too expansive a word to describe a nation, besides they were evil in the eyes of the U.S., because they impeded its growth, so from my experience of how the U.S.S.R. behaved towards countries without an agenda that included military, political, and economic hegemony, I have to say no.
My opinion (I voted yes) is based more on how the USSR treated its own citizens than how acted toward the rest of the world - though that wasn't so great either.
 
  • #19
Art said:
So Germany never invaded France during WW2 to expand it's empire? After all, all they did was remove an unfriendly government and replace it with another French one more inclined to see things their way (the Vichy government). Sound familiar?

?

I am talking about America, not Germany.
 
  • #20
sid_galt said:
?

I am talking about America, not Germany.
Think about it, I'm sure the analogy will dawn on you eventually. :rolleyes:
 
  • #21
Art said:
Think about it, I'm sure the analogy will dawn on you eventually. :rolleyes:
Sorry, Sid's right, talking about Germany makes no sense based on the discussion below.
Sid Galt said:
Art said:
Is that the USSR or the USA you are referring to Penqwuino? as most of the items you list apply equally to both and so by your definition the USA must be the current 'evil empire'
You are wrong Art.
US is notoriously poor in spy missions and has never invaded a country to expand its "empire" in modern times.
 
  • #22
I understand you, Art. When the U.S. invades some country, it is not going to replace that government with an American government, it is going to replace the government that is impeding its growth with a pro-US government that is its puppet, like the Shah in Iran, Pinochet in S. America. They are not Americans, but they were directly under U.S. influence, in the case of Shah, facilitating oil dealings, in the case of Pinochet, removing land reforms unfriendly to the U.S and helping it fight Communist gov. in S. America.

Sort of like Germany in France, when it invaded France, it didn't replace the original government with a German government, it replaced it with a French government that was its puppet.
 
  • #23
klusener said:
I understand you, Art. When the U.S. invades some country, it is not going to replace that government with an American government, it is going to replace the government that is impeding its growth with a pro-US government that is its puppet, like the Shah in Iran, Pinochet in S. America. They are not Americans, but they were directly under U.S. influence, in the case of Shah, facilitating oil dealings, in the case of Pinochet, removing land reforms unfriendly to the U.S and helping it fight Communist gov. in S. America.

Sort of like Germany in France, when it invaded France, it didn't replace the original government with a German government, it replaced it with a French government that was its puppet.

Precisely...
 
  • #24
No. It doesn't matter who coined the phrase initially---the fact still remains that the phrase is an absolute. One should not speak in absolutes especially when one looks through ancient---or even modern---history: Need I make the comparison between Pol Pot's short lived empire and that of 3CP's?
 
  • #25
sid_galt said:
US is notoriously poor in spy missions...
I guess we'll never know about the successful missions (because these were successful). :rolleyes:
chound said:
Expanding an empire can also mean making/forcing other countries to support them(open up their markets so that America's greedy corporations can sell its goods there and earn money) and not just being able to collect tax from and have its flag flying in the territories which it has captured/invaded.
klusener said:
I understand you, Art. When the U.S. invades some country, it is not going to replace that government with an American government, it is going to replace the government that is impeding its growth with a pro-US government that is its puppet, like the Shah in Iran, Pinochet in S. America. They are not Americans, but they were directly under U.S. influence, in the case of Shah, facilitating oil dealings, in the case of Pinochet, removing land reforms unfriendly to the U.S and helping it fight Communist gov. in S. America.
All of this has been discussed before, and I agree the US has most definitely expanded power in these ways.
 
  • #26
Art said:
Is that the USSR or the USA you are referring to Penqwuino? as most of the items you list apply equally to both and so by your definition the USA must be the current 'evil empire'

In fact, the whole purpose of my thread was to show subjectivity. And I don't know what USA you live in... but i don't remember there being a bread shortage in the last .. many many years... they were low on strawberries once however... so maybe that's your point? :) And I'm not exactly fearful of the FBI breaking down my door for my political views... but i guess some people can be pretty paranoid after watching a few michael moore comedies.
 
  • #27
klusener said:
Have you ever heard of the U2 incident under Eisenhower? This is freakin ironic. Because they didn't want to have open skies on either side, Khruschev responded no to Eisenhower's offer. But Eisenhower went on anyway spying on the Russians with U-2 planes, the Russians had no clue until they shot one of the planes and the pilot blabbered it all and you want to talk about spying?

Well this would relevant if the thread had anything to do with US being called an evil empire (however, many ideologs love to spin every topic into a "United States = Evil" rant).
 
  • #28
sid_galt said:
US is notoriously poor in spy missions .

... please explain
 
  • #29
Pengwuino said:
... please explain

Aldrich Ames, Kim Philby, the debacle in Iraq, Navy Officers providing sensitive information to Soviets (don't remember the names), etc. I could give many more but I don't have the time to look them up too check the names and specifics, etc.
What I do know is that none of such major incidents happened in the KGB.
Conclusion: In comparision to organizations such as the KGB, US was very poor in spying.

I should probably have qualified my previous post with an explanation and given the proper context. I'll pay attention next time.
 
  • #30
klusener said:
I understand you, Art. When the U.S. invades some country, it is not going to replace that government with an American government, it is going to replace the government that is impeding its growth with a pro-US government that is its puppet

Yes, because we all know that elections in Iraq and Afghanistan were just a sham and the Iraqis and Afghans were just poor helpless victims of the evil Karl Rove propaganda!

/sarcasm.
 
  • #31
sid_galt said:
Aldrich Ames, Kim Philby, the debacle in Iraq, Navy Officers providing sensitive information to Soviets (don't remember the names), etc. I could give many more but I don't have the time to look them up too check the names and specifics, etc.
What I do know is that none of such major incidents happened in the KGB.
Conclusion: In comparision to organizations such as the KGB, US was very poor in spying.

Oh well what are we talking about? You sound like you were saying that US spy missions were badly done or planned out. The "proof" of this was 2 Soviet spys working against the "west" (One seems to be British only) , buzz words, and your navy officers providing info. There can be no denying a lof of information was taken by the Soviet Union but what you said was that US spy missions sucked and that's what i would like proof of.
 
  • #32
I voted yes. If the words 'evil empire' has any meaning, the sovijet is it. However, personally I'd avoid such a description because of its poor information value; it doesn't say anything about what the negative aspects are.
 
  • #33
Pengwuino said:
Well this would relevant if the thread had anything to do with US being called an evil empire (however, many ideologs love to spin every topic into a "United States = Evil" rant).
Folk are just trying to establish a baseline for the discussion Pengwuino i.e. what actually makes an empire 'evil'. Presumably Reagan didn't consider the USA to be evil and so it seems necessary to factor out those elements the USA and Russia held in common. When we see what's left people can determine if that makes Russia evil
 
  • #34
Pengwuino said:
There can be no denying a lof of information was taken by the Soviet Union but what you said was that US spy missions sucked and that's what i would like proof of.

Failure to kill Fidel Castro, failure to remove Sukarno in Indonesia, failure to get Salvador not elected in Chile, failure to prevent the Iran theocratic uprising, debacle of the counterintelligence group of the CIA due to infestation of moles, etc.

The CIA was a great organization in the 50s when it was bold and aggressive. After that it just fell apart IMO.
 
  • #35
now that's what I am looken for.

haha i read "CIA due to infestation of moles" and thought CIA was a guy who was really ugly...
 

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