Quietly Pump Water 11ft - Ideas for Sump Pump Solutions

[DaveC426913]

BTW, as many have asked, we need to know flow rate.

What rate does your sump fill at? How many gallons per hour?

 

[gloo]

I think i do have an aquarium pump already that can go 12 feet... I just do not want it to pump out the sump pit and have to be primed...so that's why i never got it installed. In asking here, I was hoping people could help me find some pumping system (air ...whatever), that would not have to be submerged and not have to be primed.

So Dave, is it complicated to program these timers? Can it be flexible ...for instance...run every ten min for 5 min? You ask why i would want to restrict flow... i was hoping that I could set a restricition with enough granularity so that it is just less than the rate at which the water flows in. Thus allowing the sump to fire just once every 4 to 6 hours. I really really need to get that done. It's just too loud to be normal...

 

[gloo]

BTW, as many have asked, we need to know flow rate.

What rate does your sump fill at? How many gallons per hour?

Yes I will find out tommorow and let everyone know.

Thanks to Russ Watter, DaveC, Q Goest, and Danger for helping :)

 

[DaveC426913]

So Dave, is it complicated to program these timers?

Something like this is what I'm talking about:

They're frustrating but not complicated. With only a few buttons, you're constantly changing modes to program it. It takes a while, but once you're done, you're all good.

Can it be flexible ...for instance...run every ten min for 5 min? You ask why i would want to restrict flow... i was hoping that I could set a restricition with enough granularity so that it is just less than the rate at which the water flows in. Thus allowing the sump to fire just once every 4 to 6 hours. I really really need to get that done. It's just too loud to be normal...

They operate on a 24 hour program. And 20 programs. That means, in 24 hours, you can cycle it ON/OFF 20 times. That is NOT enough to have it come on every 5 minutes, but it is enough to have it come on every 72 minutes (20 times over 24 hours).

For each of those 'ON' times, you can individually set it to turn OFF after any number of minutes.

Your 5 minutes ON / 5 minutes OFF means it's on 50% of the time. So that would translate to 36 minutes ON / 36 minutes OFF, 24/7.

It also means you have very fine control over it over 24 hours. You could set it for 35 minutes ON, 37 minutes OFF, or 25 minutes ON, 47 minutes OFF etc.

 

[Danger]

Although I'll continue checking into keep more or less up to date, I'm removing myself from this discussion because Dave, Russ and the Q-ball are well acquainted with this subject and I am not. At this point of the thread, my only practical solution would be for you to move to the Sahara.

 

[gloo]

Something like this is what I'm talking about:

They're frustrating but not complicated. With only a few buttons, you're constantly changing modes to program it. It takes a while, but once you're done, you're all good.
They operate on a 24 hour program. And 20 programs. That means, in 24 hours, you can cycle it ON/OFF 20 times. That is NOT enough to have it come on every 5 minutes, but it is enough to have it come on every 72 minutes (20 times over 24 hours).

For each of those 'ON' times, you can individually set it to turn OFF after any number of minutes.

Your 5 minutes ON / 5 minutes OFF means it's on 50% of the time. So that would translate to 36 minutes ON / 36 minutes OFF, 24/7.

It also means you have very fine control over it over 24 hours. You could set it for 35 minutes ON, 37 minutes OFF, or 25 minutes ON, 47 minutes OFF etc.

Thank you Dave, so this one can come on every 72 minutes. But I only need to have it come on for me at 9pm to 7am so that is a 10 hour window. That means I can have it turn on every 30 minutes. Is it possible to say turn it on every 30 min for x minutes ( i.e. 2 min or 7 min etc..) That way, once i know the flow rate, i can just run the silent pump for as long as I need it?

Given that, then I want to find a pump that won't be too powerful because if it sucks too fast, then it can only come on for maybe 3 min before it has to shut down or have to be primed again. That was why i was hoping that the aquaria pumps can be chocked? like maybe using a smaller tub diameter?? Or what that break the pump?

 

[Q_Goest]

Hi gloo. How old is the pump you have? It doesn't make sense to me that it should cause a problem. Perhaps it has a damaged impeller or bearing and is vibrating.

PS: Note that the water velocity through the pipe is very low so it shouldn't be causing a vibration issue.

 

[gloo]

i just replaced it so it isn't that old. To me, it runs the same as the day i put it in. The problem is, it's just below my bedroom so you can hear it. I can sleep through most things, but my wife is more sensitive to it. Still she sleeps fine and so does my daughter. I just need to solve the issue. It isn't that loud inthe basement, but you notice it more for some reason upstairs in the bedroom.

 

[russ_watters]

Do you think that the speed controller would work for the aquarium pumps that DaveC mentioned? That way, I may not need a timer?

I am absolutely certain an aquarium air pump will not work for pumping water from your sump.

I think your best bet (besides the speed controller) will be to cut out a section of the output pipe and replace it with rubber. This will prevent the vibration of the pump from being transmitted through the pipe. Commercial pumps are installed that way.

 

[Travis_King]

I wouldn't recommend using anything other than a sump pump for this application. That's what sump pumps are for...
The pump itself shouldn't be very loud. As you are indicating that you think it's the PVC, what exactly is "loud" about the pipe? Is it vibrating against something? You mentioned that you put a sponge on it, does that mean you shoved a sponge between the pipe and some surface it's contacting?

I also wouldn't recommend that timer business. It seems like a good idea, but sumps usually run on level sensors or float switches, not timers. This is to protect from overflows and from running dry. Perhaps see how the pump is currently controlled and contact the manufacturer to see if there's a way to increase or decrease the allowable water levels in the pump controls.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo. How old is the pump you have? It doesn't make sense to me that it should cause a problem. Perhaps it has a damaged impeller or bearing and is vibrating.

PS: Note that the water velocity through the pipe is very low so it shouldn't be causing a vibration issue.

So Goest, you say the smaller the horse power rating, the quieter should be the pump theoritically? As mentioned, I have a 1/4 hp pump...is there a smaller power one that will do the job of pumping things up 13 feet?

 

[gloo]

I wouldn't recommend using anything other than a sump pump for this application. That's what sump pumps are for...
The pump itself shouldn't be very loud. As you are indicating that you think it's the PVC, what exactly is "loud" about the pipe? Is it vibrating against something? You mentioned that you put a sponge on it, does that mean you shoved a sponge between the pipe and some surface it's contacting?

I also wouldn't recommend that timer business. It seems like a good idea, but sumps usually run on level sensors or float switches, not timers. This is to protect from overflows and from running dry. Perhaps see how the pump is currently controlled and contact the manufacturer to see if there's a way to increase or decrease the allowable water levels in the pump controls.

Yes, Travis, I am starting to thing just using a quiet sump pump and insulating the vibration...maybe using insulation foam against the floor joist and getting a quieter check valve, may be the answer.

 

[gloo]

I am absolutely certain an aquarium air pump will not work for pumping water from your sump.

I think your best bet (besides the speed controller) will be to cut out a section of the output pipe and replace it with rubber. This will prevent the vibration of the pump from being transmitted through the pipe. Commercial pumps are installed that way.

Thanks Russ, I have asked around but it doesn't seem easy to replace the pvc with rubber...one guy at Home Depot kind of recommended against the idea.

 

[DaveC426913]

I am absolutely certain an aquarium air pump will not work for pumping water from your sump.

As am I. ;) However, we are not talking about air pumps anymore. We are talking about water pumps.

They are self-contained cartridge filters that have a built-in pump. This is not really what they were made for, and I am still concerned about the lift/head. I am concerned that gloo will go out and purchase a $100 pump only to discover that it will not lift water to a 12 foot height.

I also wouldn't recommend that timer business. It seems like a good idea, but sumps usually run on level sensors or float switches, not timers.

He is talking about supplementing the sump with a regular pump. It is this regular pump that will run on a timer.

The entire purpose here is to reduce the amount of time the sump pump comes on from every 10 minutes down to every few hours or more. This could be done with a supplementary pump and careful tuning.

I am not recommending this solution, as I agree a proper sump pump is the way to go, but I am addressing the question that the OP has asked.

 

[gloo]

As am I. ;) However, we are not talking about air pumps anymore. We are talking about water pumps.

They are self-contained cartridge filters that have a built-in pump. This is not really what they were made for, and I am still concerned about the lift/head. I am concerned that gloo will go out and purchase a $100 pump only to discover that it will not lift water to a 12 foot height.

He is talking about supplementing the sump with a regular pump. It is this regular pump that will run on a timer.

The entire purpose here is to reduce the amount of time the sump pump comes on from every 10 minutes down to every few hours or more. This could be done with a supplementary pump and careful tuning.

I am not recommending this solution, as I agree a proper sump pump is the way to go, but I am addressing the question that the OP has asked.

So what was that Aquarium pump picture you put up earlier? Are you saying this one would lift 12 feet? Does this one require submerging it in water? I would definitely try this if the pump was really quiet.

 

[Danger]

He is talking about supplementing the sump with a regular pump. It is this regular pump that will run on a timer.

I know that I said that I'm out of the thread, but something strikes me about those sentences. Couldn't the sump pump (without a supplemental one) be set on the timer, but with float-switch overrides to satisfy Travis' concerns about running dry or flooding?
I'm thinking of something like a "limit switch" setup, wherein mains power has a parallel path around the timer to the float switches.

 

[russ_watters]

As am I. ;) However, we are not talking about air pumps anymore. We are talking about water pumps.

They are self-contained cartridge filters that have a built-in pump. This is not really what they were made for, and I am still concerned about the lift/head. I am concerned that gloo will go out and purchase a $100 pump only to discover that it will not lift water to a 12 foot height.

Oops, well, fortunately my answer happens to be the same.

Amazon lists the entire product line of a particular pump and the max head of any of them is 10'. So no, they won't work.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027J67GS/?tag=pfamazon01-20

The entire purpose here is to reduce the amount of time the sump pump comes on from every 10 minutes down to every few hours or more. This could be done with a supplementary pump and careful tuning.

I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

 

[gloo]

I know that I said that I'm out of the thread, but something strikes me about those sentences. Couldn't the sump pump (without a supplemental one) be set on the timer, but with float-switch overrides to satisfy Travis' concerns about running dry or flooding?
I'm thinking of something like a "limit switch" setup, wherein mains power has a parallel path around the timer to the float switches.

@ Danger... I am not sure what you are saying. I was hoping to use air pump cause it was quiet (but doesn't sound technically possible given air pump power) and not use regular sump pump. It's all about the noise because I didn't want sump running at night cause it was loud.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

The entire idea here is to make the (noisy) sump pump turn on less often.

A supplementary pump will result in the sump filling much slower. That means the noisy sump pump will (in theory) kick in only every few hours (or even days), instead of every few minutes.

The reason for the timer is because the supplementary water pump has no feedback like the sump pump does so, if left to its own devices, it will simply drain the sump, suck air and lose prime. You set it to a direction wherein the sump is mostly drained each time, but over days, ultimately it fills up, then the sump pump kicks in and drains it rapidly.

 

[gloo]

The entire idea here is to make the (noisy) sump pump turn on less often.

A supplementary pump will result in the sump filling much slower. That means the noisy sump pump will (in theory) kick in only every few hours (or even days), instead of every few minutes.

The reason for the timer is because the supplementary water pump has no feedback like the sump pump does so, if left to its own devices, it will simply drain the sump, suck air and lose prime. You set it to a direction wherein the sump is mostly drained each time, but over days, ultimately it fills up, then the sump pump kicks in and drains it rapidly.

So Dave...not sure you saw my questions earlier but here they were:

1. Does that one require the entire thing to be dunked into the water? Or just one end of a hose or tube?

2. Can that lift 11 to 12 feet?

 

[Danger]

I was hoping to use air pump cause it was quiet

I understand what you want to accomplish, and I sympathize with you, but the reason that an air pump is called an air pump is because it's designed to pump air, not water. The two types don't even work the same way. For one thing, no air pump that I'm familiar with is waterproof. In the case of aquarium units, they're usually mounted outside of the tank on a dry surface.
The other thing that I have to ask is how long you have been in this environment. When I first moved to this town, the sound of the trains (especially if they blew their horns) disturbed my sleep. Within a few weeks I didn't notice while asleep. Now, 30+ years along the road, I can't hear them even if I try during daytime. By the same token, my oxygen unit snores like a hippogryph and is sitting 3 metres away from me. Same result as with the trains, except that I can hear the thing when I'm awake and paying attention to it. Normally, even awake, I don't notice it.
Is the disturbance possibly something that you can just wait out until becoming acclimated to it?

 

[DaveC426913]

Thus.

Note the noise intervals. That's the goal here.

In theory, if you adjust the timer on the supplementary pump finely enough, you could stretch out that interval indefinitely - days or weeks - in theory.

(Again, I am not really advocating for this solution, just helping out the OP.)

 

[DaveC426913]

Say, gloo, the point of a float-triggered sump pump is that it only kicks in once the float is triggered. If you raise the float a foot or two, it will wait a lot longer until the sump is full.

Can you?

 

[DaveC426913]

So Dave...not sure you saw my questions earlier but here they were:

1. Does that one require the entire thing to be dunked into the water? Or just one end of a hose or tube?

There are types that can run without being submerged. The image is nothing more than an example of a cartridge-type pump.

2. Can that lift 11 to 12 feet?

Almost certainly not.

I must stress to you that you do not have a solution yet, only an option that could be explored. You will have to do the research to make sure you find a pump that needs your needs (if there is one that fits those criteria) The combination of 12 foot lift, and non-submersible may very well be a null set.

You will have to ask at pond stores. (Water pumps for aquaria don't normally have to deal with fountains or waterfalls, so are not normally concerned about lift.)

Do not buy until you are sure the pump you have will meet your needs.

 

[gloo]

I am fine with the noise... my wife less so. But when her parents come to sleep over, they are not thrilled to say the least. It really isn't a big deal for me...i just have to switch out the pumps every 3 years. I have a water pressured sump pump that uses the venturi effect and city water pressure if the power goes out for an extended period of time (like the ice storm that put our city of power for 3 days).

 

[gloo]

I was going to say that there are these manual cranking water pumps that are quit quiet when i crank them to pump. too bad there isn't some quiet motor that I can use to run it (timer based?).

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Manual-Barrel--Hand-Pump/Rotary-Hand-Pump/8334104.p

Does anybody else have something creative?

 

[gloo]

Oops, well, fortunately my answer happens to be the same.

Amazon lists the entire product line of a particular pump and the max head of any of them is 10'. So no, they won't work.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027J67GS/?tag=pfamazon01-20I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

So Russ, you know the most about regular sump pumps I guess ( as well as Goest). From what I have learned to get the quietest sump pump going do the following:

1. Get a low velocity pump (Goest suggestion) - does this mean 1/4 hp is quieter than 1/2 hp?
2. Make sure the sump pump is sumbersible and high quality cast iron that is oil primed
3. Use rubber hose if possible to reduce virbation
4. Use sponge or material between pvc pipe (if not rubber hose) and floor joist and sump pit walls
5 Insulate floor joist using sound proof insulation
6. Should I build an enclosure room with sound proof insulation?

 

[DaveC426913]

I have found a range of external pumps (also known as inline) that have lifts as high as 18 feet. (course, it's 240V)There is a 110V pump with a 13.5' lift:

SUP02722 -1200-gph w/18' cord - 6.5 x 3 x 5.5 (Model 12)
110 watts; 1.5 amps. 880-gph @ 3'; 580-gph @ 10'; max lift 13.5'.

And it's magnetic, so it should be quiet.

http://www.thepondoutlet.com/home/tpo/page_2190_235/pondmaster_mag-drive_pumps.html

Open the 'Features' tab.

 

[gloo]

I have found a range of external pumps (also known as inline) that have lifts as high as 18 feet. (course, it's 240V)There is a 110V pump with a 13.5' lift:

SUP02722 -1200-gph w/18' cord - 6.5 x 3 x 5.5 (Model 12)
110 watts; 1.5 amps. 880-gph @ 3'; 580-gph @ 10'; max lift 13.5'.

And it's magnetic, so it should be quiet.

http://www.thepondoutlet.com/home/tpo/page_2190_235/pondmaster_mag-drive_pumps.html

Open the 'Features' tab.

How does this work? Does it have to be submerged? Or just one end of tubing in the water.

And what about priming issue? I guess the timers have to come in play or it will burn out?

 

[Danger]

I am fine with the noise... my wife less so. But when her parents come to sleep over, they are not thrilled to say the least.

Dude! You're sitting on a gold mine! Do you have any idea of how many guys want their in-laws to be too uncomfortable to stay?

 

[DaveC426913]

How does this work? Does it have to be submerged? Or just one end of tubing in the water.

External or "inline" pumps are designed to work while out of the water. Just stick the inflow tube into the water.

And what about priming issue? I guess the timers have to come in play or it will burn out?

No. You're going to set the timer so that the pit never runs dry. That's the whole point of limiting how long the water pump runs for.

This also means you'll have to raise the sump pump a few inches, so that the pit never runs dry, and so the water pump always has some water to pull. Yeah, this could get tricky. If the sump pump drains down to one-inch, then the water pump kicks in and runs for 20 minutes, you'll end up running the pit dry and losing prime. The water pump can theoretically self-prime, but it won't if there's barely an inch of water in your pit.

One way to help the water pump flow rate as well as self-prime, is to put the water pump as low as possible, so the inflow tube is as shirt as possible. Sit the water pump on the pit floor. It will only have to draw a foot, which is good, and it doesn't matter if it's submerged part of the time.

But all this is why I think you'll be constantly fiddling with the setup.

Gloo:

1] How fast does the pit fill with water? How many gallons - in your estimation - are entering the pit each hour (if you shut the sump pump off)? We need to know this.
2] How high is your float? Can it go higher?

 

[Q_Goest]

From what I have learned to get the quietest sump pump going do the following:

1. Get a low velocity pump (Goest suggestion) - does this mean 1/4 hp is quieter than 1/2 hp?
2. Make sure the sump pump is sumbersible and high quality cast iron that is oil primed
3. Use rubber hose if possible to reduce virbation
4. Use sponge or material between pvc pipe (if not rubber hose) and floor joist and sump pit walls
5 Insulate floor joist using sound proof insulation
6. Should I build an enclosure room with sound proof insulation?

Hi gloo. This is a very good summary. I'd definitely recommend trying #3, 4, 5 and 6 before you put money into a new pump. Your existing 1/4 hp pump is relatively small and should work very well. Although it's new, you also should consider checking it for any damage by running it in the sump with the discharge pipe removed so it's just circulating water inside the sump to see if it's making any strange noise or vibration. But your list here is great starting point and I'd recommend trying those on your list first. If you're still having issues with the pump, I'd be interested in hearing from you.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo. This is a very good summary. I'd definitely recommend trying #3, 4, 5 and 6 before you put money into a new pump. Your existing 1/4 hp pump is relatively small and should work very well. Although it's new, you also should consider checking it for any damage by running it in the sump with the discharge pipe removed so it's just circulating water inside the sump to see if it's making any strange noise or vibration. But your list here is great starting point and I'd recommend trying those on your list first. If you're still having issues with the pump, I'd be interested in hearing from you.

so # 1 is true? higher hp means more noise?

 

[DaveC426913]

so # 1 is true? higher hp means more noise?

Surely, yes. And that was one of the my concerns. Many of the external pump (that like like a pool pump) are quite noisy.

The nice thing about the magnetic pumps is that they are virtually silent.

 

[Danger]

Okay... I'm going to go way out on a limb here, just because I'm at my wits' end.
This would be expensive and inconvenient, but just might possibly do the job if, and only if, you are correct about a hand-cranked pump being quiet. How about using a pneumatic or hydraulic motor on the pump itself, and mount the power system in your garage or out in the woods or some other place where you can't hear it?