We'll have lunch together soon - how to behave?

[powerflow]

Hello,

I have known an nice girl for a while, and some two months ago, I asked her if she wanted to have lunch with me at the university cafeteria. It was really wonderful, we've been talking for hours. I don't know if we connected, but I certainly liked it. Anyway, I told her she could write to me if she wanted to repeat the whole thing some time.

Even though it took her a lot of time, she wrote to me and we'll have a second 'cafeteria date' soon. I must say that she was very busy with examns and took lots of time to write the emails (sometimes weeks between emails). But I date very rarely and I feel insecure about many things, so I'm going to ask:

• I was so happy when she wrote back after like one month. I got very excited and I was thinking about her frequently and I certainly still am. I am afraid that my expectations are too high and when I'll realize she's rather cool/neutral/indifferent, I'll be feeling hurt. The truth is, I am very happy to finally have met someone who seems in the right mind and who is not totally indifferent towards myself and I probably have too high expectations.
• We got along well on the first cafeteria date. Suppose this time, everything goes just as well. Now, I certainly don't want to wait a month or two to see her again, but I don't know a polite way to say that. Most importantly, I don't know if it is still too early to ask her out to a new level of date (i.e. out-of-university-date): E.g. I am into art, we might see an exhibition together (I hate going alone). We might just take a stroll in the city or in the park (I really love that). We might just meet for a drink (perfect for talking). These would be my favourites. But how do I know if it's approporate to ask her out on such a 'date'? University is one thing, this is another. I am afraid it might be inappropriate or too early.
• What if we run out of things to say? My subject is rather abstract, hers is very practical (we talked a lot about it last time). I don't want to repeat myself and don't want her to be forced to repeat herself (or be bored). I'd prefer a much more personal discussion (favourite movies, books, music...) but last time, we didn't talk about hobbies/general interests very much. I want her to ask me about my art interests and what else I like to do, but last time, she didn't.
• Does she think of me as a friend or a potential, possible romance?

What are your thoughts and what would you advise be?

 

[Mentallic]

You know there are other ways to write back other than email, which - if she's anything like me - can put off for a while and then forget about it, either because I'm too nervous about it or feel weird or have nothing to say. Try facebook, msn, txt, etc.

If I were to be put in your shoes, I'd exchange phone numbers to avoid another month of silence from her. You should try asking her out a little more on these on campus dates before you can be sure a further date off campus will be a good choice. It's one thing to have her say she "doesn't like you in that way" and it's another to have her say it when you guys are alone together and have to travel back home together, having a good hour of awkwardness to deal with.

Plus asking her out is kind of obvious. Just you two? You could've chosen any other friend to go along with you. So give it a bit more before you take the plunge.

 

[cronxeh]

I am sorry buddy but you are so far into the friends zone you are finding Christmas decorations she wants you to take out to the curb. You may have already blown your chances with this nerdmuffin, and as much as that will pain you, its best to move on and start dating someone hotter than her, then have her bump into the two of you making out or whatnot in the library and evoking a primal reaction of jealousy. There are other ways, but at this age and this level of unsophistication, its a really moot point

 

[Mentallic]

Cronxeh, way to go with the sarcasm. I'm sure that's exactly what powerflow was looking for and not some kind of helpful advice... No definitely not that...

 

[cronxeh]

I don't joke on these forums. I am dead serious, I don't use sarcasm or satire, or any of the other silly things. I am as serious as a heart attack.

 

[Mentallic]

If that really is the case (which I highly doubt) then your advice is more suited for the party-scene.

 

[cronxeh]

If that really is the case (which I highly doubt) then your advice is more suited for the party-scene.

What are you talking about? This kid is what, 18-19? You think this girl is going to settle down with this nerd and pop out a few kids into her 20's and say sayonara to her youth, career, fun, girlfriends, carefree lifestyle, etcetera? No, you must be joking.

Nobody talks for hours rampantly and enjoys a conversation and then just doesn't get back to you for a month. You do that when you toss a bone to your buddy who you don't really like all that much because they are clingy and needy, and keeping them at arm's length is just not far enough.

And this was just that - a lunch on school premises. It wasn't a date, it wasn't even a dangerous encounter that could've made any psychological impact. It was as harmless as brother and sister getting a burger together while their parents were watching.

 

[powerflow]

@ Mentallic: Thanks, sounds reasonable. I'll suggest exchanging numbers and won't ask about a non-university date. And I'll do that only everything goes well.

This kid is what, 18-19?

She's older... you appear to be much younger.

 

[cronxeh]

Right, I am the milk sucking egghead here. Sure, that is why I come in posting on this forum because I can't close the deal with some snot-nosed little college girl. :rofl:

 

[Mentallic]

What the hell is your problem?

You think this girl is going to settle down with this nerd and pop out a few kids into her 20's and say sayonara to her youth, career, fun, girlfriends, carefree lifestyle, etcetera?

You're kidding me. No one said anything about children or marriage. We're talking dates, moron.

Right, I am the milk sucking egghead here. Sure, that is why I come in posting on this forum because I can't close the deal with some snot-nosed little college girl. :rofl:

Well good thing he hadn't closed the deal yet else she'd already be knocked up by now!

No you're probably wrong there powerflow, cronxeh is definitely older and wiser than us both, clearly a 40 year old virgin.

 

[cristo]

Calm down guys, let's not start with the insults.

 

[AUK 1138]

I am sorry buddy but you are so far into the friends zone you are finding Christmas decorations she wants you to take out to the curb.

well, you can't say this for certain, but you can say that he SHOULD have been friendzoned. see, she waited a month. if a girl likes you she won't want to wait a month. now if you've only seen her once you probably aren't in the friendzone nearly as much as cronxeh makes it sound. make sure she knows you find her attractive and that you want a physical relationship. now, don't go too fast for yourself and try not to be completely overt, just let her catch you looking at her a little bit and hold eye contact. you know, the stuff you probably want to do anyways if you like her. and really, don't worry about possibly having been friendzoned, A)there is always another woman. B)Guys can get out of the friendzone and end up having very good relationships. most importantly, take charge. if you want to see her again don't tell her she can write you, tell her you want to do something and set up a date yourself.

 

[Evo]

She might have waited a month because she wasn't inetersted at the time, or the timing wasn't right. Her situation may have changed and decided to give it another try.

 

[powerflow]

I can't be sure, but from our conversations I felt that she was mainly busy. Surely, if she had been burning to see me again, she would have found an opportunity. But for example, there are events of common interest (monthly or so) that both of us have been visiting regularly (it's also where we've met in the first place). Roughly one month after our 'date' there was a such event but I had to miss it. I learned from her afterwards that she had missed it too (examns or examn preparation). Also: For one mail, she took long to reply. When she finally did, she wrote that she was relieved that a row of examns had passed. Before that, when it was my birthday, she gave me a short mail where she and announced that a more extended reply would be coming soon. I think it would be fair to say that she is not totally indifferent. I must have crossed her mind from time to time. Right now, I am taking some time myself with a reply because I didn't feel very inspired to write something and because I want to understand the situation better (that's why I'm here).

 

[rootX]

• I was so happy when she wrote back after like one month. I got very excited and I was thinking about her frequently and I certainly still am. I am afraid that my expectations are too high and when I'll realize she's rather cool/neutral/indifferent, I'll be feeling hurt. The truth is, I am very happy to finally have met someone who seems in the right mind and who is not totally indifferent towards myself and I probably have too high expectations.
• We got along well on the first cafeteria date. Suppose this time, everything goes just as well. Now, I certainly don't want to wait a month or two to see her again, but I don't know a polite way to say that. Most importantly, I don't know if it is still too early to ask her out to a new level of date (i.e. out-of-university-date): E.g. I am into art, we might see an exhibition together (I hate going alone). We might just take a stroll in the city or in the park (I really love that). We might just meet for a drink (perfect for talking). These would be my favourites. But how do I know if it's approporate to ask her out on such a 'date'? University is one thing, this is another. I am afraid it might be inappropriate or too early.
• What if we run out of things to say? My subject is rather abstract, hers is very practical (we talked a lot about it last time). I don't want to repeat myself and don't want her to be forced to repeat herself (or be bored). I'd prefer a much more personal discussion (favourite movies, books, music...) but last time, we didn't talk about hobbies/general interests very much. I want her to ask me about my art interests and what else I like to do, but last time, she didn't.

Seems like you are thinking too much about yourself..

 

[AUK 1138]

see, that being the case you're probably fine. perhaps not ideal, but she seems to be giving you a chance. and as to running out of things to say, the only way that will happen is if you are BOTH very awkward which would kind of cancel out the problem since she has it too.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I agree with your assessment and Evo's. She likely has been busy is all, especially if she is serious about her academics. I would have to admit though that if she were particularly interested she would likely have found some time to get back to you sooner. Evo is likely right that there was some situation that led her to feel as though the time was not right. Again it may have simply been a serious commitment to academics that led her to not want to be pursuing a relationship when she was busy with study and exams.

Now, I certainly don't want to wait a month or two to see her again, but I don't know a polite way to say that.

There is nothing wrong with saying that. Tell her "I had a great time and I would hate to wait another month to see you." You can double check with Evo on that but I am fairly certain she would agree with me.

Most importantly, I don't know if it is still too early to ask her out to a new level of date (i.e. out-of-university-date): E.g. I am into art, we might see an exhibition together (I hate going alone). We might just take a stroll in the city or in the park (I really love that). We might just meet for a drink (perfect for talking). These would be my favourites. But how do I know if it's approporate to ask her out on such a 'date'? University is one thing, this is another. I am afraid it might be inappropriate or too early.

The first date is usually the 'safe' date. The second date is usually the less 'safe' date. You are meeting on campus again? Do you have a bar on campus? If you meet up for coffee or something again and things go well I would suggest pushing the envelope right then and there. If you are getting on well and both seem to be lingering to talk more you might suggest going someplace else for a drink or some such. If it is early maybe suggest getting together again later on in the evening.

I have read several of Cronxeh's posts and I am fairly certain that he is serious. Regardless I would suggest not taking his posts too seriously (no offense Cronxeh). I would agree with him to some extent though in that playing it too safe at this point may get you 'friendzoned'. Unless she has some rather strong trust issues I would say that by the second date you should be able to figure out whether she is interested in more than a friendship. There is no point in holding back for fear of scaring her away.

 

[powerflow]

Hi,

thanks for your replies, they are giving me some confidence :-)

Now, there is another thing on which I could use some advice.

Usually, she was the one to take some time for responses, I responded quite quickly. But from her last mail I know that she is now through with the most serious examns, i.e. she is free now (within some frames of course). She asked me how I'm doing. I don't know what to reply!

She already knows that I will be free in a couple of days, I don't need to repeat that. Also, I have been planning for some time now to buy a new pair of shoes and a shirt. It would of course be ideal to do that before we meet. So I don't want to set up a date yet. On the other hand, I don't want to let her wait and leave her message unreplied to. If I gave an honest response to her mail, it would be something like 'Hi, yes, indeed, I am really busy and the deadlines are coming onto me like a supersonic train. You already know them (rougly). I'll write to you a couple of days after I handed in my work and then we'll set up something.' That wouldn't be a very nice message. No matter how nicely I put it it won't be nice. What do you think? What would you write?

 

[cristo]

What do you think? What would you write?

I think you should stop trying to put this off. Ask her if she'd like to meet up in the next couple of days (when she's free). No matter how busy you are, I'm sure you can spare an afternoon. As for the shirt and shoes, I don't think that's important. I think you're just trying to delay in your own mind since you are nervous about this.

 

[powerflow]

I think you should stop trying to put this off. Ask her if she'd like to meet up in the next couple of days (when she's free). No matter how busy you are, I'm sure you can spare an afternoon. As for the shirt and shoes, I don't think that's important. I think you're just trying to delay in your own mind since you are nervous about this.

Maybe I've missed something important in my description above, but I don't agree. First of all, I have an important work to hand in (more important than the girl or anything else). It's hard to spare an afternoon (not much time left), and more importantly, I want to be relaxed (like I was on the first date) instead of counting the time and thinking I should be home studying right now. And I don't mean to put it off, I can't actually wait to see her face. I want to be confident and relaxed. Also, she has only been open for a new date after she finished her most important examns. I believe she won't be disappointed if I behave the same way.

I am more worried about what to write her now (if anything at all...)

 

[Mentallic]

Just keep it short and sweet, don't give her your life story in this email...

"Probably no different to how you're feeling at the moment, stressed and scribbling on paper all day long. Once our exams are done we'll meet up. Maybe around this date?
See you soon!"

I don't know... something like that I guess.

 

[powerflow]

Just keep it short and sweet, don't give her your life story in this email...

"Probably no different to how you're feeling at the moment, stressed and scribbling on paper all day long. Once our exams are done we'll meet up. Maybe around this date?
See you soon!"

I don't know... something like that I guess.

Thanks Mentallic! For your suggestion and for your contributions to this thread as a whole. I've written to her a text which I think is honest and lovely and basically left the date of the 'date' for her to choose (from the time on when I'll be free).

 

[powerflow]

Hi again,

I have been thinking about the whole thing the last couple of days and wanted to write about that. I don't mean to be melodramatic or something, but upon contemplation I feel like I am making a complete fool of myself. When I think about it now, it's a completely stupid idea to worry about her feelings etc., weighting arguments, interpreting her every line etc. I don't know what I formerly found so vague about this matter, because right now, it seems quite clear-cut. You don't wait two months to set up a date with someone you like. Also, you don't take 1-2 weeks to write a paragraph or two. Also, you don't say you're relatively free now and then again delay your message. You do that when it's low priority, when you don't really care.

Another thing crept into my mind (I had not thought about that for a while). On our first date, I told her that I was planning to go to another university after the summer. This now has changed: I am going to stay (for certain). However, she doesn't know about that. She thinks I am going to leave so if she's sane, she wouldn't dream about starting something with me.

I don't know why, but I remembered this fact only yesterday. I didn't withold it on purpose, only probably suppressed it to sustain hope, whatever. She is probably feeling like talking to 'old friends' now, and I guess I am one of them. I feel like an idiot for - put in a dramatic way - holding my breath every time I check my emails (and for doing that way too often). I have stopped this crap since yesterday and I want to develop a more relaxed, natural, neutral attitude towards her so that when she says she doesn't like me in that way, I don't feel quite as ugly.

I am now planning to take it easy, go to that date, show her I like her, make my move (... don't want to wait another month, would you like to meet me again some time soon?) and then see what happens. Sounds almost like this is my last examn ;-)

Anyway, your thoughts are welcome, and please don't bash me for being a self-pitying jerk because I am trying not to be one (in this case).

 

[DanP]

I have been thinking about the whole thing the last couple of days and wanted to write about that. I don't mean to be melodramatic or something, but upon contemplation I feel like I am making a complete fool of myself.

If it;s any consolation for you, I don't know any person (myself included) who didn't manage to make a fool out of himself on many different occasions during lifetime :P

When I think about it now, it's a completely stupid idea to worry about her feelings etc., weighting arguments, interpreting her every line etc. I don't know what I formerly found so vague about this matter, because right now, it seems quite clear-cut. You don't wait two months to set up a date with someone you like. Also, you don't take 1-2 weeks to write a paragraph or two. Also, you don't say you're relatively free now and then again delay your message. You do that when it's low priority, when you don't really care.

Too much reflection breeds depression. Learn to free your mind. Take up a sport and enjoy
10h weekly where you only focus on performing. It works wonders to keep your head clear.

Another thing crept into my mind (I had not thought about that for a while). On our first date, I told her that I was planning to go to another university after the summer. This now has changed: I am going to stay (for certain). However, she doesn't know about that. She thinks I am going to leave so if she's sane, she wouldn't dream about starting something with me.

This is irrelevant. See above. And btw, many women will pursue short time relationships as well if they really like a man.

I don't know why, but I remembered this fact only yesterday. I didn't withhold it on purpose, only probably suppressed it to sustain hope, whatever. She is probably feeling like talking to 'old friends' now, and I guess I am one of them. I feel like an idiot for - put in a dramatic way - holding my breath every time I check my emails (and for doing that way too often). I have stopped this crap since yesterday and I want to develop a more relaxed, natural, neutral attitude towards her so that when she says she doesn't like me in that way, I don't feel quite as ugly.

I think all ppl act a bit differently when they are infatuated. As for ugly, look in the mirror
in the morning when you shave. Do you like what you see ? If yes, why do you care what 3rd parties think about you ? She doesn't like you ? Thats life. Other girls will.

I am now planning to take it easy, go to that date, show her I like her, make my move (... don't want to wait another month, would you like to meet me again some time soon?) and then see what happens. Sounds almost like this is my last examn ;-)

Well, whatever you do, don't act desperately. A date at her convenience ? I mean, really ?
Remember, you are not so desperate to meet her when she feels and automatically clean your schedule for her. Delay her if she calls you in a month, Say you'll call when you have time to work out a date. Learn to let women chase you, feed them with just right amount of attention to progress whatever relation you have very slow and nothing more, but be charming always and when she is with you make her feel great.

 

[Astronuc]

It does seem that the OP is infatuated and now is circling in some holding pattern of indecision. Moving ahead, one could simply ignore the situation and engage in work and other activities, but this would leave the relationship unresolved. Or, one could contact the woman, mention that one would like to get together when she is available, and see where that leads. In this case, be prepared to engage in other activities and move one. One could also engage other women socially. As far as I can tell, there is a one-way (nonmutual or asymmetric) infatuation here.

One could send her a card and/or flowers. I did this with a woman I had dated just to let her know I was thinking about her, and to brighten her spirits.

 

[DanP]

One could send her a card and/or flowers. I did this with a woman I had dated just to let her know I was thinking about her, and to brighten her spirits.

Yeah, flowers are always nice :P Sending flowers through a courier then ignoring her for a couple of weeks will keep the chick on her toes if she has the slightest interest you.

 

[cronxeh]

powerflow I am going to save your infatuation only to reveal to you the lesson in all of this.

First of all this girl is not the one. Realize this and know this. If she liked you she would've skipped classes, got high and came over to your room. There is no attraction that exists between you two.

You may have already blown your chances with her, but time is on your side. If you cut your losses now, create some distance and time between you two, she might forget about you. If you approach her again and build attraction, then you will have a chance.

But then again, if you really want this, you need to forget the whole 'game' of attraction. The only other solution is to get together with her, not for lunch or breakfast, but some 'date' - start it slowly like a concert or some other kind of public venue and then isolate her away from public in a cozy restaurant and get to know her. If she is on facebook, find out what she likes - befriend her friends if you can't see her profile, I don't know - do something stalkish but not actually stalking. Dig deep, find her interests, and act upon them.

On your first encounter, flirt heavily, don't let her lead the way, and under no circumstances show your neediness. Tell her to put her number in your phone, and that you might call her if you want to do this again. Establish physical contact - holding hands, gentle backrub, etc, but back away if she doesn't want it. Be interested in what she has to say and pay attention- you might realize this girl is not all that exciting afterall. Do not put her on some imaginary pedestal, and do not put her down either.

Remember - if she does not respect you, she does not love you. I guess I have to expand on this. Girls are attracted to guys they can look up to - if she sees you as a doormat, then you will be just that - someone she uses, steps over, and pretty much a friend. As of right now, you are a guy who is heavily attracted to her and someone she can use for various odd jobs, in her mind.

Do not buy her any gifts or flowers, you are not in that stage of a relationship. You are in the 'looky here missy I am a man and you are one out of a billion fine ladies out there' stage. Being nice to someone you don't know or can't possibly like just yet is offensive. You are essentially lying to her at this stage if you are being nice to her - she did not do anything to deserve this, she did not work for your affection, and certainly there is nothing about you that tells her to be nice other than social conventions that dictate politeness and not stabbing your buddies in the eye for flirting with you.

 

[Lacy33]

Nice cronxeh,
Just copied this and sent to dd. I think she will find this useful.

 

[cronxeh]

Nice cronxeh,
Just copied this and sent to dd. I think she will find this useful.

You call your daughter by her cup size?

 

[Mentallic]

I feel like an idiot for - put in a dramatic way - holding my breath every time I check my emails (and for doing that way too often). I have stopped this crap since yesterday and I want to develop a more relaxed, natural, neutral attitude towards her so that when she says she doesn't like me in that way, I don't feel quite as ugly.

I like this

Actually, not caring as much and experimenting by getting out there and making a fool of myself and learning in the process has made me much better with the ladies now. I was so shrouded by my own thoughts and emotions and honestly... I was scared garbageless at the thought of talking to a girl with the sole intent of having something more with her... that I just failed at everything I tried.

I know a lot of people will probably disagree with me but becoming a slut for a short time helped me out immensely and I would never take back that era in my life. And no, I'm not saying to take every opportunity to the bedroom, but to flirt around a lot, fail, and try again.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Talking to Chicks 101:

Be yourself. Say what you please. Be Sincere (key concept: Sincerity. See glossary for details.).

End of Unit.

Note: For Telling Chicks What They Want to Hear see How to Get Laid 101, lectured by Prof. DanP.

I have been thinking about the whole thing the last couple of days and wanted to write about that. I don't mean to be melodramatic or something, but upon contemplation I feel like I am making a complete fool of myself.

Good. It is good to be and feel a fool sometimes. If you did not feel like a fool I would fear that you are taking yourself too seriously.

 

[powerflow]

Thanks again for your answers!

Sorry, guys, don't mean to be whiny again, but you make it sound so easy.

And no, I'm not saying to take every opportunity to the bedroom, but to flirt around a lot, fail, and try again.

Establish physical contact - holding hands, gentle backrub, etc, but back away if she doesn't want it.

One could also engage other women socially

I just don't see where I shall engage with other women socially and where I shall take the confidence for gentle backrubs etc. I mean in my Physics department, there is nobody I want to date.

I am happy that I have an opportunity to meet interesting people from different subjects occasionally (on regular presentations) and that's where I met her. I think I lack the connections, the solial events, etc. to meet nice women and to take every opportunity to flirt around a lot, fail, and try again. That's why I was double happy and hopeful to to meet a nice girl who at least went on one cafeteria date with me. Neediness? Apparently. But since first term when I met my first girlfriend and entered a short-lived relationship with her I haven't had one date (thats in more than two years). When I was in summer school I met a nice girl and I suggested we go buying groceries together (everyone had to do that, it was a nice walk, couple of kilometers, would have been a nice talk), she refused. When at my university I liked a girl from my department (we had couple of opportunities to chat), I felt quite clearly that while at the beginning she was somewhat curious (at least not totally indifferent), she lost that glimpse of interest over time. I really don't know what it is. I do have some 'friends' (more like co-students) but am not close enough to somebody to ask what is so weird about me. Also, when I want something for university, I have no trouble at all going to the authorities, tutors, lecturers, whatever, getting what I want (information, material, reports about old examns, old lab reports, material for studies). In these manners, I know how to behave, what to say, how to be cunning. But I cannot do the same thing with girls. This is, however, what I want, because I feel weary of being alone and doing everything on my own all the time.

It also has to do with my upbringing. My parents always encouraged me to be bold (getting what I want etc.) in academics but did quite the opposite with girls. They thought girls were bothersome when it comes to studies and they were always strongly against dating. When I came to them with girl issues (when I was a little bit younger) they basically brainwashed me. It's really true, they were fiercely against dating. So what happened is I increasingly kept to myself in these matters. However, not once in my life I had a reasonable father son conversation about women, dating, etc. That's probably where it all stems from.

They might have been wrong about, I don't know, school days. But not changing their mind at university (esp. in the early stages, like when I had my first girlfriend) implied that I was supposed to develop into some obedient sexless studying machine. I refused by starting to develop thoughts of my own. However it is a totally different game if have total moral support (like in matters of studying) or the opposite thereof (in emotional questions).

I might be joking I am a 100% theoretician. Theorizing about Physics with the computer, theorizing about emotions and human needs on the internet with other theoreticians. But to me, it's not really funny, it's not what I want to be (well, in Physics yes, in life, not at all).

Maybe in my country (in Europe), it's a different mentality. You don't just walk into the cafeteria, sit next to a bunch of pretty girls and have a date by the end of the meal. Even the charming good looking guys don't do that. In the bus it rarely or never happens that a guy just starts talking to an unfamiliar but cute girl and they have a nice conversation. I don't remember ever having observed the Trolley Song coming to life in a real tram or bus. It just doesn't work this way. And it's hard for me to get out on a Saturday evening alone and walk into some random café and hope to meet someone nice. I don't know but it appears I am missing something, it appears that there is something everyone understands but I don't.

Sorry for the epic narrative ;-)

 

[cronxeh]

Sorry, guys, don't mean to be whiny again, but you make it sound so easy.

Dude, that is the difference between boys and men. Men jump out of airplanes and leap into the unknown, they take action, and even if they are wrong, they make history. They don't sit and wait for their mother's approval like a boy would, they don't sit there waiting for their girlfriends approval 'umm.. may I kiss you?' NO. They sense the moment is right and they go for it. They want to hold her hand - they GO FOR IT. If you don't take a leap into the unknown you are a rational, scared, wimp.

Thats why I told you - she is not the one, you won't ever 'bag' her. You will practice with her, and if she has any slight amount of interest in you this might grow into a full blown relationship, but most likely it won't. Your primary objective is to find your cojones in the bottom of that dark pit you call your manhood

Maybe in my country (in Europe), it's a different mentality. You don't just walk into the cafeteria, sit next to a bunch of pretty girls and have a date by the end of the meal. Even the charming good looking guys don't do that. In the bus it rarely or never happens that a guy just starts talking to an unfamiliar but cute girl and they have a nice conversation.

What country are you from? Seems I could enjoy a nice vacation over there, among the beta males of this world. If you want to get ahead in life you need to stand apart from the rest of the herd, be above it, but not looking down on them as snottiness is annoying in itself.

There is nothing wrong with sitting next to bunch of girls in a cafe, taking off your sunglasses, and with a genuine smile (not Joker kind of grin), waiting for the silent moment to announce yourself: 'hey girls, have you heard a joke about a little boy, a Rabbi, and a Priest??'

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sorry, guys, don't mean to be whiny again, but you make it sound so easy.

I had the same trouble. I was raised by mostly divorced women who taught me, more or less, that men are jerks and I need to be the perfect Mr. Niceguy to any and all women. This quickly led me to wonder why females all rejected me at every turn no matter how sweet and supplicating I was. When you are brainwashed into being the perfect niceguy the first thing you need to learn is that you are trying too hard. The 'you make it sound so easy' issue resolves itself from there.

I just don't see where I shall engage with other women socially and where I shall take the confidence for gentle backrubs etc.

Just get used to talking to attractive females as if they were any other person (since, really, they are just any other person) then try physical contact. This does not require back rubs. Get a feel for if she is comfortable with you being in her space. Brush against her (preferably not any erogenous zones to start). Casually touch her on the shoulder, or some other innocuous area, while talking to her or when you approach her. You will quickly and easily be able to tell if she is comfortable with such contact. There is also the 'Hug Test'. If a female is comfortable with you she will hug you 'hello' and/or 'goodbye'. The manner in which she hugs you though is important. If she leans in and touches shoulders then she is only moderately comfortable with you. If she makes fuller bodily contact while hugging you then she is very comfortable with you and is possibly attracted to you.

I do have some 'friends' (more like co-students) but am not close enough to somebody to ask what is so weird about me.

Talk to them. Is your 'love life' really anything so very secret and revealing? Remember not to take yourself too seriously! Everyone has had such issues at some point. You may feel more comfortable here since this is more or less anonymous but you see how many people are willing to talk about these things as if its no big deal. People in real life are the same. Everyone has had girl/guy troubles and they are more than willing to discuss such issues. Keep it light, don't pour your soul out, and don't take yourself too seriously and you will find a wealth of advice without the embarrassment and ridicule you may feel you will incur. Girl and guy talk both are full of discussions of the opposite (or same) sex.

Maybe in my country (in Europe), it's a different mentality. You don't just walk into the cafeteria, sit next to a bunch of pretty girls and have a date by the end of the meal. Even the charming good looking guys don't do that. In the bus it rarely or never happens that a guy just starts talking to an unfamiliar but cute girl and they have a nice conversation. I don't remember ever having observed the Trolley Song coming to life in a real tram or bus. It just doesn't work this way. And it's hard for me to get out on a Saturday evening alone and walk into some random café and hope to meet someone nice. I don't know but it appears I am missing something, it appears that there is something everyone understands but I don't.

I understand not having the sort of feel for just talking to random ladies you do not know. But know that it does, in fact, work. I have seen it. It seems ridiculous but somehow works out, I do not know how sometimes myself.

I actually had a lady at a bus stop approach me and start talking to me. We were both on the same bus frequently. The next time I saw her she walked right up to me and started talking to me again like we were old pals. That day I asked her for her phone number. We went on a few dates. I don't live in Europe but I can not imagine it is really so different there.

 

[Mentallic]

However, not once in my life I had a reasonable father son conversation about women, dating, etc. That's probably where it all stems from.

My only ever conversation with my parents about girls was them approaching me and starting and ending with:
"You need to be careful, you're too young to have children... no, I'm being serious!"
A few days later they approached my girlfriend in a similar way.

Yep... awkward :uhh:

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't depend on what your parents think about it. It really depends on you and your personality towards the subject. I've seen two brothers pretty much the same age that were TOTALLY different in this way. One guy was the nice and pleasant one, and the other was the opposite. You can imagine who had more luck with the ladies.