What is the scientific basis for chakras in Hindu philosophy?

[PJ2001]

What are "chakras" anyway?

Hello,

Hinduism talks of 7 (or sometimes many more) chakras, or energy centers. They seem to correspond to the nerve plexus' in the body as well as some glands.

I don't what scientific basis there is for such, but perhaps I'm being too narrow minded?

Thanks
PJ

 

[mgb_phys]

They are special points on the body through which money can be extracted from Californians.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Just to keep this on the right track, the questions should be more along these lines: What are the claims made with respect to the existence and function of chakras? Is there any scientific evidence to support these claims?

Keep in mind that we explore claims of and evidence for unexplained phenomena. We don't want a review of religious beliefs.

 

[mgb_phys]

The difficulty with all these topics is that it is hard to find/quote the original source.
So somebody (often with an interest) will try and link the belief with science by saying that this ancient_mystical_point is over some organ/structure that is now known to be important so the ancients had some secret knowledge that we only just discovered.

But did the point originally have a fixed position, did it line up with whatever the promoter is now claiming, and does the organ have anything to do with whatever this point was meant to cure?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, there are many examples of revisionist history. However, simply locating a organ proves nothing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

btw, good one mgb!

I've lived in Oregon long enough to laugh at Californian jokes.

 

[Proton Soup]

don't know for sure, but i suspect they correspond to areas of focus during meditation. whether there would be a physical correlation or it's simply a mnemonic device is anyone's guess.

 

[Ghost803]

In my opinion its all just a bunch of hogwash.. And I've taken Yoga,etc.

It's sad though, the mental and physical rewards of Yoga exercises were very great, even without having to mix in mysticism and mythology. I am just miffed that Yoga and meditations is packaged in such a sensationalist way that discredits it and makes people skeptical of its benifits.

 

[mgb_phys]

I am just miffed that Yoga and meditations is packaged in such a sensationalist way that discredits it and makes people skeptical of its benifits.

It's the same with Karate, Saying 'ke-ai' as you punch empties your lungs of air and tightens your stomach muscles - it doesn't concentrate your mystical life force.
And the plank gets broken because of the speed of the punch and momentum - except in my case where I just get sore knuckles cos I'm weedy.

 

[Ms Music]

I have heard of healing done through "chakra alignment" or something of the sorts... But is there even any way at all to see if it truly works? Or if it is the placebo affect only? I have a friend that works with this stuff, and she truly believes in what she does... I am a skeptic personally, but when science has taken prayer and ruled out the placebo affect, I won't bet that chakras are nothing at all... But how do you rule out the placebo effect?

 

[jobyts]

yeah, the chakra alignment worked for my car.

("chakra" in sanscrit means wheel.)

 

[mgb_phys]

yeah, the chakra alignment worked for my car.

I think I see a business opportunity there. Between therapists for your dog and feng shui for your office - why not a chakra realignment for your car ?
It must build up a lot of negative vibes in all those traffic jams - so you can have it's aura cleansed along with the oil change.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Alright, let's keep this serious.

 

[CEL]

I have heard of healing done through "chakra alignment" or something of the sorts... But is there even any way at all to see if it truly works? Or if it is the placebo affect only? I have a friend that works with this stuff, and she truly believes in what she does... I am a skeptic personally, but when science has taken prayer and ruled out the placebo affect, I won't bet that chakras are nothing at all... But how do you rule out the placebo effect?

When did science take prayer and rule out placebo effect?

 

[b.shahvir]

Its human nature to reject what cannot be understood by the realms of the human mind. We only experience the environment thru our sense organs...and the organs do have limitations! But wat the heck,the debate will go on...and on... and on...

 

[Ms Music]

When did science take prayer and rule out placebo effect?

Sorry CEL, I am swamped today and having a hard time finding the exact study with so little time (needless to say, googling "prayer" brings up so much garbage). The one I remember reading about, the people didn't even know that people were praying for them to rule out placebo. This study appears that the patients knew someone was praying for them, which doesn't rule out placebo. But it could be the phase II study that they mention at the end of the article where they didn't let some people know they were being prayed for.

Again, sorry I couldn't find the right one, but I have no more time to search. This is the best I could find from a reputable source.

http://www.dukehealth.org/HealthLibrary/News/5056"

Will post again later if i can find the right study.

 

[DaveC426913]

mgb, you are on fire today! :rofl:

 

[CEL]

Sorry CEL, I am swamped today and having a hard time finding the exact study with so little time (needless to say, googling "prayer" brings up so much garbage). The one I remember reading about, the people didn't even know that people were praying for them to rule out placebo. This study appears that the patients knew someone was praying for them, which doesn't rule out placebo. But it could be the phase II study that they mention at the end of the article where they didn't let some people know they were being prayed for.

Again, sorry I couldn't find the right one, but I have no more time to search. This is the best I could find from a reputable source.

http://www.dukehealth.org/HealthLibrary/News/5056"

Will post again later if i can find the right study.

The article does not mention if the group that received the intercessory prayer was aware of the treatment, but the other noetic treatments are made with the knowledge of the patient, so the study is not blind and cannot rule out placebo effect.

"These noetic interventions help a patient achieve a state of calm equilibrium, or homeostasis, which puts them in a better state to help in their own recovery process,"

 

[lisab]

Alright, let's keep this serious.

Good luck with that, Ivan...like herding cats !

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Good luck with that, Ivan...like herding cats !

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You got that right! However, as you can imagine, if we allow the silliness to take over, the forum is a lost cause.

... like herding cats LOL; perfect.

I should say that our membership has improved dramatically since I took over S&D in 2003. Back then there were times that I could barely stand to look.

 

[AltScience]

The difficulty with all these topics is that it is hard to find/quote the original source.
So somebody (often with an interest) will try and link the belief with science by saying that this ancient_mystical_point is over some organ/structure that is now known to be important so the ancients had some secret knowledge that we only just discovered.

But did the point originally have a fixed position, did it line up with whatever the promoter is now claiming, and does the organ have anything to do with whatever this point was meant to cure?

Wiki, defines empirical research as research that bases its findings on direct or indirect observation as its test of reality. Such research may also be conducted according to hypothetico-deductive procedures.

Ancient mystics, often considered kooks by materialists even in ancient times, relied on empirical research to develop their techniques. If we go back in history it was very hard to access these techniques. They were only available to a monk or priest class and it was not quite the social scam it is today.

To alter the consciousness was a serious persuit of these individuals. To do this required many hours of observation of human consciousness. The results were shared and eventually codified and handed down. I consider this scientific empirical research.

More difficult than finding primary sources is the fact that we have to observe the results of their ancient research through the lens of our own modern culture. As an aside, the California culture we have joked about in this thread can be seen (imho) as the result of a serious breakdown in the effectiveness of the western religious models of the past few centuries. Individuals are looking for a deeper connection to the abstract modes of consciousness that religious mystery has always provided human beings since the beginning of civilization.

If we contrast this difficulty with the simplicity of the empirical method of observation we come closer to understanding the language that is used by modern kooks and mystics.

Let us take a very obvious example. There is a chakra associated to the genitals. Most of us can admit that without mythology or placebo effect that some sort of "energy" builds up in the groin. Without knowing about gonads or hormones we sense the tension build up over time and we seek release naturally. This would be the first observation to base the research on.

Can we all agree that there is a point on the body, namely the genitals, that seems to accumulate energy that is different from other points on the body?

This would be the foundation for speculating that a energy center exists in this part of the body with a particular function.

The next observation I would offer is that in the process of releasing this tension we often seek a partner. When his energy is released with another person another sort of energy arises that seems to emanate from the heart. This energy is similar but not the same as the energy that build up in the genitals. We would call it love and it has formed the basis for human relationships forever. In the 21st century we understand a little about electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue (George W. Crile, a kook, did much of this research in the '30's using animal experiments and modern scientific method in the lab) but in ancient times they were limited to empirical research.

The stumbling block is language...metaphorical language that is interpreted as being the objective truth. What is described as a colored wheel of spritual energy is a metaphorical way of describing the hormonal electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue.

I would suggest that taken simply there is sufficient empirical research to suggest that there is an energy associated with various organs/structures of the body.

I would hold the serious breakdown in the effectiveness of the western religious models of the past few centuries to be the cause of the silliness, wishful thinking, and outright fraud that occurs in much of the commercial discussion of "chakras" and quick self-help yoga practices. People act like they are starving or drowning and are ready to eat or cling to any idea that gives them the certainty they seem to need so bad. It is this mental pathology in our culture that prevents good empirical research into the borderlands of perception.

Pardon my word horde,

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Are you saying that modern medicine already has modern names for the "energies" claimed to be associated with chakras, or are you saying there is more?

 

[DaveC426913]

Are you saying that modern medicine already has modern names for the "energies" claimed to be associated with chakras, or are you saying there is more?

I think he's saying that the chakras are metaphors for biological systems we are already aware of, but that we reduce to their most simple components (hormones, blood flow, skin conductivity, etc.) and thus miss the bigger picture.

 

[DaveC426913]

Wiki, defines empirical research as research that bases its findings on direct or indirect observation as its test of reality.

...

If we contrast this difficulty with the simplicity of the empirical method of observation we come closer to understanding the language that is used by modern kooks and mystics.

The problem with empirical research is that it can go horribly astray.

Historically, several otherwise great scientists have been lured off the path of truth by observing the motions of the planets and proceeding to invent explanations linked to the regular polygons.

Likewise, Farmer's Almanacs often predict upcoming weather patterns based, not on an understanding of weather, but merely on past observations.

In both cases (and my point here being: in all three cases), through empirical observation but without deeper understanding, the practioners think they've got a handle on cause and effect when, in fact, they are being led down dead-end paths, risking mis-diagnosis.

 

[Kingarthur]

I think chakras have something to do with the way electricity flows through the human body, but I’m not sure. I'm surprised that this thread is full of people who are insensitive to historical viewpoints of science and medicine. I think this is an area of biology and anatomy that merges with other disciplines, including philosophy, psychology, quantum physics, and religion.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think chakras have something to do with the way electricity flows through the human body, but I’m not sure. I'm surprised that this thread is full of people who are insensitive to historical viewpoints of science and medicine. I think this is an area of biology and anatomy that merges with other disciplines, including philosophy, psychology, quantum physics, and religion.

That is certainly not a point of view that will be discussed here. Please read the posting guidelines.

 

[AltScience]

Are you saying that modern medicine already has modern names for the "energies" claimed to be associated with chakras, or are you saying there is more?

DaveC426913 sums it up very well and leaves an opening for discussion (elsewhere ; D) concerning the bigger picture. Safe to say we have much more research to do on human consciousness and its relationship to the myriad of biological systems.

I think he's saying that the chakras are metaphors for biological systems we are already aware of, but that we reduce to their most simple components (hormones, blood flow, skin conductivity, etc.) and thus miss the bigger picture.

DaveC426913 also raises a great point on the danger of mis-diagnosis due to incompelete understanding that should be kept squarely in mind when doing qualitative science.

through empirical observation but without deeper understanding, the practioners think they've got a handle on cause and effect when, in fact, they are being led down dead-end paths, risking mis-diagnosis.

 

[CEL]

...

Let us take a very obvious example. There is a chakra associated to the genitals. Most of us can admit that without mythology or placebo effect that some sort of "energy" builds up in the groin. Without knowing about gonads or hormones we sense the tension build up over time and we seek release naturally. This would be the first observation to base the research on.

...
The next observation I would offer is that in the process of releasing this tension we often seek a partner. When his energy is released with another person another sort of energy arises that seems to emanate from the heart. This energy is similar but not the same as the energy that build up in the genitals. We would call it love and it has formed the basis for human relationships forever. In the 21st century we understand a little about electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue (George W. Crile, a kook, did much of this research in the '30's using animal experiments and modern scientific method in the lab) but in ancient times they were limited to empirical research.

The stumbling block is language...metaphorical language that is interpreted as being the objective truth. What is described as a colored wheel of spritual energy is a metaphorical way of describing the hormonal electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue.

I would suggest that taken simply there is sufficient empirical research to suggest that there is an energy associated with various organs/structures of the body.
...

This is a Physics fprum. Energy is the capability to do work. Are you saying that the "energy" from your genitals can lift a rock?

 

[AltScience]

This is a Physics fprum. Energy is the capability to do work. Are you saying that the "energy" from your genitals can lift a rock?

Yes, biological energy does work.

I am not a biologist but the "energy" i.e electricity is most likely involved in signaling the nervous system engage the reproductive activities. I really do not have all the facts about what makes the genitals do the work they do.

The off-topic question that arises in my mind is can this "energy" be increased by the methods of Yoga?

 

[CEL]

Yes, biological energy does work.

I am not a biologist but the "energy" i.e electricity is most likely involved in signaling the nervous system engage the reproductive activities. I really do not have all the facts about what makes the genitals do the work they do.

The off-topic question that arises in my mind is can this "energy" be increased by the methods of Yoga?

The electric signals between neurons are very low energy. You need to use electrodes in contact with the skin and high gain amplifiers to detect them. There is no need of high energy, since the neurons are very close to each other.
I don't think Yoga can increase that energy. And if it did, this increase would be useless.
But Yoga can supposedly increase what new agers call "energy", a transcendental entity not known by physics.

 

[AltScience]

The electric signals between neurons are very low energy. You need to use electrodes in contact with the skin and high gain amplifiers to detect them. There is no need of high energy, since the neurons are very close to each other.
I don't think Yoga can increase that energy. And if it did, this increase would be useless.
But Yoga can supposedly increase what new agers call "energy", a transcendental entity not known by physics.

The question is does the energy do work? Even very low energy does perform work.

Its not a question here to support the new age language describing "shifts in consciousness" as "Energy" which discussion is contrary to the posting guidelines, I believe.

Langauge is tricky. I am speculating about real energy based on real biological structures and not about the new age use of "energy" as a metaphor.

Yoga (Hatha Yoga) may involve structural changes to the body that increases the ability of this "physical" energy to do work. We see that it takes only very low amounts of energy for biological functions. I speculate that even the smallest increase may have an impact on health or consciousness.

It has been suggested in an article written for the alternative medicine community based on the work of George Crile that physically stressing the various glands of the body with various stretches will cause them to become stronger. In the same way that a muscle is built up by exertion it may be possible that the tissues of the glands may also be strengthened.

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, biological energy does work.

I am not a biologist...

Herein lies the problem. You are not a biologist, but want to make claims about biology, which are simply wrong.

but the "energy" i.e electricity is most likely involved in signaling the nervous system engage the reproductive activities. I really do not have all the facts about what makes the genitals do the work they do.

No, the nervous system functions through ion gradients...it's chemical, not electrical. And arousal of the genitals is due to a shift in blood flow. There is nothing special about the genitals compared to other parts of the body in terms of how they function.

 

[pallidin]

Hello all.

I have a personal experience with all this, so i hope that a personal experience conforms to the guidelines. If not, please let me know and I will refrain...

Anyway, I'm 49 now, but when I was about 15 I was into Yoga very much(as my mother taught yoga and classical dance)
Getting to the point, I decided one day to experiment with "awakening the chakras" in a secluded field next to a church.
Whatever I did(can't fully remember) caused a dramatic sensation within my naval area. What I do remember is that the sensation kept growing and eventually(a couple of minutes) felt so powerful that I got scared and stopped, even though I would describe it as "pleasant"
Never did it again.

Ever since, I've had an ability to do something weird, even though it doesn't seem to do anything(to my knowledge)...

What happens is that I can, at will and at any time, briefly concentrate in a way that I can't describe, and the result is that my entire body feels like it being hit with electricity.
Not a lot, probably about 1/4th that one experiences when touching a standard 9-volt battery to their tongue. But I feel it all over, and its not unpleasant.

I do not know what is happening, but I do know that there are no external effects(that I've been able to tell anyway).

My "gut" feeling is that I am simply somehow activating either my nervous system, a hormone "dump", or both. As opposed to some actual paranormal phenomenon.
Because of this I do not do this often. I'm concerned that I might adversely affect my nervous/hormonal system.

Anyway, it's weird and if I had the money I would go to a doctor and get hooked-up to whatever monitoring electronics to find out what it is and, especially, if it's harmful for me to do.

OK, enough of my rant. Thanks.

 

[AltScience]

Herein lies the problem. You are not a biologist, but want to make claims about biology, which are simply wrong.


No, the nervous system functions through ion gradients...it's chemical, not electrical. And arousal of the genitals is due to a shift in blood flow. There is nothing special about the genitals compared to other parts of the body in terms of how they function.

Moonbear,

I would not, for the sake of this arguement, admit to being simply wrong.

Ion gradiants? A quick google search shows that an ion gradiant is a electro-chemical reaction. I am only technically wrong in that I did not refer to the activity as electro-chemical and my speculation can hardly be discounted on that point.

"An ion gradient is a concentration gradient of ions, it can be called an electrochemical potential gradient of ions across membranes. "
http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-definition/Ion_gradient/

I never referred to "arousal of the genitals" in terms of erection or erectile tissues but to the experience of an sensation that is localized in the genital region. I am going to speculate without doing research on the electro-chemical triggers to erection that "something" must signal the heart to pump blood to the gentials and that this "something" has to do with a electro-chemical charge that is associated with a hormonal response caused by some sort of reaction caused by a sexual stimuli.

The special thing about the genitals for the sake of this discussion, that has more to do with empirical observations than it does actual biological function, is that most of us are more aware of localized subtle changes in our genitals than in the adrenaline glands. We all understand that fight and flight are related to these glands but it does not manifest in the area of the glands the same way as the genitals.

 

[CRGreathouse]

AltScience, I think you need to find some evidence before continuing with your theories here. Speculation that things might just line up with your beliefs, without something backing it up, isn't special enough to merit discussion.