What do you do with a problem like Ahmadinejad?

  • #476
kyleb
Regardless, the fact that he reiterated that his government will not recognize Israel clearly indicates that he is referring to the present and future (not some past conflict).
That is how I understand it as well, and that is what I'm getting at. Would you be willing to recognize a nation that is colonizing your homeland under force of military occupation?

And yeah Yonoz, I'm familar with their charter, but I'm also familiar with http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/08/world/main1294380.shtml" as well.
 
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  • #477
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0
And yeah Yonoz, I'm familar with their charter, but I'm also familiar with http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/08/world/main1294380.shtml" as well.
A truce is not a permanent peace treaty. As far as I can see, every time they struck a truce they only used it to refresh their armed forces, since they can move people and arms freely without fearing an Israeli assault. They know the IDF will not attack them until it has evidence that an armed attack is being planned.
 
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  • #478
Astronuc
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A truce is not a permanent peace treaty. As far as I can see, every time they struck a truce they only used it to refresh their armed forces, since they can move people and arms freely without fearing an Israeli assault. They know the IDF will not attack them until it has evidence that an armed attack is being planned.
That has also been my observation.

If Hamas and Ahmadinejad (Iran's ayatollahs) are serious/sincere about peace, then let them recognize Israel, reconcile and find a peaceful solution to problems that plague the Palestinians and Middle East, e.g. the conflict between Fatah and Hamas.

Gunmen kill three sons of Abbas aide in Gaza
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/wl_nm/palestinians_dc [Broken]
GAZA (Reuters) - Unidentified gunmen killed three sons of a Palestinian intelligence official loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas in Gaza on Monday, firing at a car as it dropped the boys at school, police and hospital officials said.

An adult bystander was also killed in the attack in Gaza City, which came amid growing tension between Hamas, the governing militant group, and Abbas's more moderate Fatah.

Angry mourners firing automatic weapons later stormed into the parliament compound during a funeral for the boys, who were aged between 6 and 9. There were no reports of injuries.

Some 2,000 people took part in the funeral, including the boys' father, Colonel Baha Balousha, who was heavily guarded. Relatives carried his three sons in their arms. The bodies were wrapped in white sheets.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/world/16219778.htm
In Monday's attack, masked assailants who blocked the road with their vehicle jumped out and sprayed gunfire at the car carrying the children, killing Balousheh's three sons, Osama, 9, Ahmad, 6, and Salam, 3, along with a bodyguard, witnesses said. At least two other people were wounded.
This is sick! This is pure evil!

This event seems similar to sectarian violence (civil war) between Sunni and Shii in Iraq. There is concern that Sunni nations my support Iraqi Sunnis and Iran and Shiite nations will support the Iraqi Shii in a continued sectarian conflict which may spill over the borders into a regional war.

Saudis Say They Might Back Sunnis if U.S. Leaves Iraq
http://travel.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/world/middleeast/13saudi.html
WASHINGTON, Dec. 12 — Saudi Arabia has told the Bush administration that it might provide financial backing to Iraqi Sunnis in any war against Iraq’s Shiites if the United States pulls its troops out of Iraq, according to American and Arab diplomats.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia conveyed that message to Vice President Dick Cheney two weeks ago during Mr. Cheney’s whirlwind visit to Riyadh, the officials said. During the visit, King Abdullah also expressed strong opposition to diplomatic talks between the United States and Iran, and pushed for Washington to encourage the resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, senior Bush administration officials said.

The Saudi warning reflects fears among America’s Sunni Arab allies about Iran’s rising influence in Iraq, coupled with Tehran’s nuclear ambitions. King Abdullah II of Jordan has also expressed concern about rising Shiite influence, and about the prospect that the Shiite-dominated government would use Iraqi troops against the Sunni population.

A senior Bush administration official said Tuesday that part of the administration’s review of Iraq policy involved the question of how to harness a coalition of moderate Iraqi Sunnis with centrist Shiites to back the Iraqi government led by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

The Saudis have argued strenuously against an American pullout from Iraq, citing fears that Iraq’s minority Sunni Arab population would be massacred. Those fears, United States officials said, have become more pronounced as a growing chorus in Washington has advocated a draw-down of American troops in Iraq, coupled with diplomatic outreach to Iran, which is largely Shiite.
 
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  • #479
23
0
This event seems similar to sectarian violence (civil war) between Sunni and Shii in Iraq. There is concern that Sunni nations my support Iraqi Sunnis and Iran and Shiite nations will support the Iraqi Shii in a continued sectarian conflict which may spill over the borders into a regional war.

Saudis Say They Might Back Sunnis if U.S. Leaves Iraq
http://travel.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/world/middleeast/13saudi.html
Yours is a very genuine concern. It's unfortunate that this division in the Muslim world has only become general knowledge for most people because of the war in Iraq.
 
  • #480
Astronuc
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Yours is a very genuine concern. It's unfortunate that this division in the Muslim world has only become general knowledge for most people because of the war in Iraq.
Yeah - Bush didn't realize that there were Sunni and Shii. Various members in his administration and congress were oblivious to the divisions in the Muslim world, and those who had some idea seemed to minimize or ignore it. It seems that various administration officials assumed they could simply impose US (or rather Republican) ideas on Iraq and it would happen. :rolleyes:

Galbraith points out that the existence of Iraq was forced and that the partitioning of Iraq into Kurdistan, Shiistan and a Sunni Region is a logical and inevitable consequence of the US invasion. The problem is that Bush is still trying to impose his view (delusion) on the Iraqis.
 
  • #481
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0
Galbraith points out that the existence of Iraq was forced and that the partitioning of Iraq into Kurdistan, Shiistan and a Sunni Region is a logical and inevitable consequence of the US invasion. The problem is that Bush is still trying to impose his view (delusion) on the Iraqis.
I think that some of Iraq's neighbors strongly oppose the formation of a Kurdish state.
 
  • #482
2,000
5
Astronuc unless you live in the Middle East why would we be concerned about that? If they hate each other and want to kill each other well what it that up to us. I suppose you think we are our brother's keeper of so right, that we need to be the world policeman to keep people from fighting?

I think the only thing we in the western world need to watch for is that no state in the middle east becomes powerful enough to form some kind of a military theat to us.
 
  • #483
Astronuc
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Astronuc unless you live in the Middle East why would we be concerned about that? If they hate each other and want to kill each other well what it that up to us. I suppose you think we are our brother's keeper of so right, that we need to be the world policeman to keep people from fighting?
Because I am concerned about war and human suffering. I don't think the US has any business being the world's policeman - it has done a rather poor job so far.

The US does not observe international law, particuarly in the case of Iraq. Upon occupation of the country, the US became responsible for security in Iraq having destroyed the sovereign government. The Bush administration failed miserably in its obligation.

It would take an extraordinary person to bring peace to the Middle East, someone along the lines of the Islamic equivalent of Buddha.
 
  • #484
Astronuc
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I think that some of Iraq's neighbors strongly oppose the formation of a Kurdish state.
Well, Turkey seems more amenable to a Kurdish state - possibly as a buffer to Arab Iraq. The Kurds are pretty mild compared to Sunni and Shii at the moment.

Al Qaida is a militant Sunni organization and apparently the al Qaida extremists consider Shii as apostates. Such extreme negative feelings do not bode well for the future.
 
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  • #485
2,000
5
Because I am concerned about war and human suffering.
Everybody is, especially for their own suffering!

But sometimes it is a thing of "us versus they". When someone attacks you there are basically two things you can do, you can defend yourself and make sure they cannot attack you anymore or you simply do nothing and hope the problem will go away.
Which of the two strategies will reduce your personal suffering and your family's Astronuc?

I don't think the US has any business being the world's policeman - it has done a rather poor job so far.
The US is simply defending itself against the Muslim threat out of the Middle East. Attack is most often the best defense!

The US does not observe international law, particuarly in the case of Iraq.
The US is a sovereign nation and does not need to justify its actions to anybody!
Let me guess, you would like to see a world government who will judge what countries can do and cannot do right? But if that ever will happen then the law of the strongest will simply make those in power more powerful. Unlike Jesus I do not think that the meek will inherit the earth, those who take power and who use opportunity will.

Upon occupation of the country, the US became responsible for security in Iraq having destroyed the sovereign government. The Bush administration failed miserably in its obligation.
Perhaps by your moral standards but it is hardly practical. Have you ever read world history Astronuc? Every conquered nation is either assimilated or is up against a long period of hardship. Now you may not like that, it may be against your principles but history seldom does not repeat itself. Politics is about pragmatism not about showing high morals.

It would take an extraordinary person to bring peace to the Middle East, someone along the lines of the Islamic equivalent of Buddha.
Well IMHO religion is one of the sources of a lot of the trouble in the world. As long as we have the "priest" figure, who "knows" and is obliged to tell others on how to behave and think we have reason to be suspicious. And to me that means shoot first and ask questions later if we have to.
Having another religious nutcase is the last thing we can us IMHO.

Don't get me wrong Astronuc, you seem like a very nice and likeable person and definitly someone with a heart but in matters of politics and power it is not the heart that rules.
 
  • #486
Astronuc
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. . . , but in matters of politics and power it is not the heart that rules.

"Closer To The Heart" - Rush

And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality
Closer to the heart
Closer to the heart
The blacksmith and the artist
Reflect it in their art
They forge their creativity
Closer to the heart
Closer to the heart

Philosophers and ploughmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentality
Closer to the heart
Closer to the heart
You can be the captain
I will draw the chart
Sailing into destiny
Closer to the heart

:approve: :cool: :biggrin:
 
  • #487
Astronuc
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Local Elections Test for Iran President

By NASSER KARIMI
The Associated Press
Thursday, December 14, 2006; 3:52 PM

TEHRAN, Iran -- Iranians go to the polls Friday for local council elections that are expected to be a first test of support for hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad since he took office more than a year ago.

Ahmadinejad could face dissatisfaction among conservatives, some of whom feel he has been too caught up in confrontations with the West and has failed to deal with Iran's struggling economy.

Reformists _ whose movement was largely crushed by hard-liners after dominating the councils, parliament and the presidency in the late 1990s and early 2000s _ are hoping the vote will show popular support on which to rebuild.

All 233,000 candidates, including some 5,000 women, for town and city councils across the country were vetted by parliamentary committees, which are dominated by hard-liners. The committees disqualified about 10,000 nominees, reports said.

. . . .

Voters also will elect the Assembly of Experts, a body of 86 senior clerics that is charged with monitoring Iran's supreme leader and choosing his successor.

. . . .

It will be only the third time that Iranians vote for local councils, a reform introduced by former reformist President Mohammad Khatami in 1999.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/14/AR2006121401042.html


Well - the results

Ahmadinejad opponents leading in local Iranian elections!

TEHRAN: Conservative opponents of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are leading in Iran's local elections, according to partial results announced by the Interior Ministry on Monday.

The trend appears to be an embarrassment for Ahmadinejad, whose anti- Israeli rhetoric and unyielding position on Iran's nuclear program have provoked condemnation in the West and moves toward sanctions at the UN Security Council.

Partial results of Friday's polls provided by the Interior Ministry suggested that Ahmadinejad's allies had largely failed to win control of local councils. Instead, candidates supporting the Tehran mayor, Mohammed Bagher Qalibaf, a moderate conservative allied with the former president, Hashemi Rafsanjani, and opposed to Ahmadinejad, have taken the lead.

The partial results also indicated that reformers were making a comeback, after having been suppressed in the parliamentary elections of 2004 when many of their best candidates were barred from running.

From the results declared on Monday, it looked as if Qalibaf supporters were due to win 7 of the 15 seats on the Tehran City Council and reformists would get another 4 seats. Three seats would be won by the president's allies and one would go to an independent.

. . .

Rafsanjani, who lost to Ahmadinejad in the 2005 election runoff, won a Tehran seat on the Assembly of Experts with a high number of votes.

By contrast, an ally of the president, Ayatollah Muhammad Taqi Mesbah Yazdi, won an assembly seat with a low toll. Yazdi is regarded as Ahmadinejad's spiritual mentor.

A political analyst, Mostafa Mirzaeian, said Iran's political lineup was changing in favor of moderate voices within the ruling Islamic establishment.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/18/news/iran.php

Seems to be a positive development.

What we need is dialog - not war.
 
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  • #488
Astronuc
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Seeking Iran Intelligence, U.S. Tries Google :rofl:
Internet Search Yields Names Cited in U.N. Draft Resolution


By Dafna Linzer
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 11, 2006; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/10/AR2006121000959.html
When the State Department recently asked the CIA for names of Iranians who could be sanctioned for their involvement in a clandestine nuclear weapons program, the agency refused, citing a large workload and a desire to protect its sources and tradecraft.

Frustrated, the State Department assigned a junior Foreign Service officer to find the names another way -- by using Google. Those with the most hits under search terms such as "Iran and nuclear," three officials said, became targets for international rebuke Friday when a sanctions resolution circulated at the United Nations.

Policymakers and intelligence officials have always struggled when it comes to deciding how and when to disclose secret information, such as names of Iranians with suspected ties to nuclear weapons. In some internal debates, policymakers win out and intelligence is made public to further political or diplomatic goals. In other cases, such as this one, the intelligence community successfully argues that protecting information outweighs the desires of some to share it with the world.

Maybe they could use Wikipedia too! :biggrin:

Whatever happened to letting the fingers do the walking through the Yellow Pages? Oh - that was before the internet. :rofl:
 
  • #489
Astronuc
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Iranians Vote for Change in Local Elections
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6645702

Morning Edition, December 19, 2006 · Partial returns from last Friday's elections in Iran indicate a setback for conservative President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad. The President's supporters have apparently failed to gain control of either the Tehran city council or the powerful Assembly of Experts, a group of clerics who appoint the country's Supreme Leader.
So there's hope - I hope.
 
  • #490
Rach3
What do you do with a problem like Ahmadinejad?

Oh!

How do you solve
a problem like
Mahmoud...
 
  • #491
23
0
A good editorial by Amir Taheri: http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=7406" [Broken]
The blow dealt at Ahmadinejad is primarily a Tehran phenomenon. The capital city, with a population of some 15 million, is the stronghold of middle classes that have been frightened by the president incendiary rhetoric and alleged cravings for a "Clash of Civilisations" that could lead to war.

The key reason for Ahmadinejad's defeat in Tehran and other major cities was the unexpectedly high turnout, estimated by the Interior Ministry at over 47 per cent. In Tehran, for example, no more than 700,000 people had voted in the previous election. This time the number jumped to more than two million out of some five million eligible to vote. According to newspaper reports and eyewitnesses in Tehran, most of the new voters were young, westernise middle class men and women who made no secret of their determination to deal a blow to Ahmadinejad.

Voting in Iranian elections is always problematic. Since all candidates are approved by the authorities in advance, most citizens are barred from running for office. Also, the results must be approved by a 12-man body of mullahs who could stroke anybody's name from the list of winners, often on spurious grounds. Nevertheless, many Iranians believe that even such limited and patently undemocratic elections could provide an opportunity for affecting the balance of power within the ruling establishment.

There is no doubt that this is what Iranian voters have done, at least as far as the AOE is concerned. The question now is whether Khamenehi, with the Damoclean sword that Ahmadinejad wished to hang over his head out of the way, will try to rein in the firebrand president.
...
As always in Iranian politics under Khomeinism, good news comes mixed with bad. Ahmadinejad is wounded but still very much alive. And that, according to Machiavelli, is when a political animal is at his most dangerous.
 
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