What if they exist? demons, ghosts

[jackson6612]

Personally, I don't really believe in demons etc. If you do, I don't have any problems. Science needs some parameters to work on anything. e.g. To work on air one should know its temperature, composition, etc. Sometime in the past a clever and smart magician could have used a colored gas like chlorine (though I think chlorine is poisonous) to claim that he has turned colorless air into colored one. The people would have been fooled because science at that time lacked information (or loosely speaking 'parameters') about the elements (at least in the area where the magician was working). Likewise, perhaps today science lacks those parameters and information which could help one to explore the world of demons etc. What if they exists somewhere among us. I remember I once watched a documentary, perhaps it was on some new theory called string theory or whatever, which claimed something like that some other 'universes' are present at our doorsteps but we cannot see them because they exists in higher dimensions. I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

Please don't try to transform this thread into some kind of religion vs. anti-religion thing and keep your replies productive. Thank you.

 

[HeLiXe]

I tend to think it has to do with the way the brain interprets certain energy / certain energy affects the brain...not the belief in such things, but experiences with them. You might like this documentary as well.

I especially like the part with the little girl who was having night terrors.

 

[GeorginaS]

what if they exist? demons, ghosts

Then I think we ought to invite them over for dinner.

Just sayin'.

 

[JaredJames]

As with the majority of these subject types, the notion of [insert entity] is created to fill a gap in our knowledge. To explain something we don't understand.

As I've said before, many times. We have no reason to believe any of these exist. It's just become a case of people attributing events (even relatively easy to explain ones) to these phenomena.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

As with the majority of these subject types, the notion of [insert entity] is created to fill a gap in our knowledge. To explain something we don't understand.

As I've said before, many times. We have no reason to believe any of these exist. It's just become a case of people attributing events (even relatively easy to explain ones) to these phenomena.

we also have no reason to believe any of these do not exist.
just saying
its a belief, not a fact

 

[JaredJames]

we also have no reason to believe any of these do not exist.
just saying
its a belief, not a fact

And why is that?

I'm stealing this from another thread, it's my own explanation of a similar topic that applies equally here:

the way I look at subjects such as is this is as follows:

Until evidence for the existence of X is present, I dismiss it.

There is no evidence for god/ghosts/psychics, therefore I dismiss they could ever exist in the first place.

Until I see evidence showing their existence, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

A lack of evidence does not mean something may exist and it doesn't prove something doesn't exist. It simply means we have no basis to think it exists in the first place.

Ask yourself this: If there's no reason for it to have existed, why should we think it has?

It's like saying "I have no evidence to prove my invisible pet dog exists, but then I also don't have evidence to say it doesn't. So I should believe it may exist."
This is ridiculous. With an example like that the answer is simple. There's no reason to believe the invisible dog ever existed. No basis for it what-so-ever, so why are we entertaining the idea it may do?

 

[jackson6612]

Jared:

Suppose after a long, healthy and prosperous life you peacefully die one day and encounter God or some of his agents, man you are really screwed then!

 

[JaredJames]

Jared:

Suppose after a long, healthy and prosperous life you peacefully die one day and encounter God or some of his agents, man you are really screwed then!

Why's that? It depends which god it is. Evil old testament or nice new testament?

Personally, I'd take my chances with both.

Would you be more proud if your creation (aka us) blindly believed in something all their life or would you prefer your creation to live a life that involves thinking for itself and making its own decisions?

I know which program I'd want to have under my belt. But hey, I digress.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

easy there Judas

there is absolutely NO civilization that has ever existed that hasnt had mythical creatures
and even in our uber powerful uber advanced civilization we still have mythical creatures.

Thoughts of existence has to stem from somewhere and from something, if not we would never of thought they existed in the first place... no?

a guy commited murder, a lack of evidence says he didnt commit the murder, doesn't mean he didnt do it, so why was he brought to trial in the first place, why was there suspicion he commited the murder in the first place...
suspicion doesn't just apear out of thin air

if there wasn't any suspicion that there were other planets other than our own, there would have been no reason to find them, same with other stars and celestial systems

i'm just doing this for the sake of argument
no one will ever prove the other one wrong, almost as pointless as a religious debate really

 

[jackson6612]

That's your take.

For Jews Old Testament's (Hebrew Bible's, to be politically correct) God is as nice as New Testament's.

Someone asked the same kind of question to Bertrand Russel and he replied something like: Sir, why did you take so much pains to hide yourself?!

Best wishes.

 

[JaredJames]

there is absolutely NO civilization that has ever existed that hasnt had mythical creatures
and even in our uber powerful uber advanced civilization we still have mythical creatures.

Thoughts of existence has to stem from somewhere and from something, if not we would never of thought they existed in the first place... no?

Human imagination is a powerful tool. You see a horse, you see a creature with a horn, you get a unicorn. There is no basis for believing unicorns exist aside from that bit of creative imagery in your head.

As I said, ghosts fill a gap. We here a noise, we need to explain it. If it isn't apparent what caused it we immediately jump to ghosts.

a guy commited murder, a lack of evidence says he didnt commit the murder, doesn't mean he didnt do it, so why was he brought to trial in the first place, why was there suspicion he commited the murder in the first place...
suspicion doesn't just apear out of thin air

A lack of evidence doesn't say you didn't commit a murder, that is only true legally. The lack of evidence means you cannot give a comment regarding who did it. I would point out that the fact someone has been killed is evidence a murder took place, and so science isn't looking to dismiss the murder ever taking place (which I believe is what you were going for). But rather it dismisses the idea that person A committed the murder as there is no evidence either way.

And yes, suspicion does come out of thin air. Ever looked at someone and thought "ooh, he looks a bit dodgy" and then a week later something happens and you immediately think it's them? Of course you have, everyone does it. Just another thing people like to do.

if there wasn't any suspicion that there were other planets other than our own, there would have been no reason to find them, same with other stars and celestial systems

There is / was observable evidence for planets and other celestial bodies. We have no reason to claim suspicion here. A guy developed a new device for looking over distances, they aimed it at the sky, they see 'celestial bodies'. Boom, no reason for people to be suspicious, just curious (or bored).

 

[JaredJames]

That's your take.

For Jews Old Testament's (Hebrew Bible's, to be politically correct) God is as nice as New Testament's.

Someone asked the same kind of question to Bertrand Russel and he replied something like: Sir, why did you take so much pains to hide yourself?!

Best wishes.

Very true, could be any god.

 

[Danger]

Jared:

Suppose after a long, healthy and prosperous life you peacefully die one day and encounter God or some of his agents, man you are really screwed then!

Impossible. You specified in your original post that you didn't want this to become a point of religious contention, but you just turned it into one. The above quoted statement is ridiculous, since there is no such thing as a supreme being.
Jared, I love your reasoning.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

Human imagination is a powerful tool. You see a horse, you see a creature with a horn, you get a unicorn. There is no basis for believing unicorns exist aside from that bit of creative imagery in your head.

As I said, ghosts fill a gap. We here a noise, we need to explain it. If it isn't apparent what caused it we immediately jump to ghosts.

I totally agree, but since you weren't there... and i wasn't there, you can't deny the possibility that it didn't happen some other way

A lack of evidence doesn't say you didn't commit a murder, that is only true legally. The lack of evidence means you cannot give a comment regarding who did it. I would point out that the fact someone has been killed is evidence a murder took place, and so science isn't looking to dismiss the murder ever taking place (which I believe is what you were going for). But rather it dismisses the idea that person A committed the murder as there is no evidence either way.

Touche lol

And yes, suspicion does come out of thin air. Ever looked at someone and thought "ooh, he looks a bit dodgy" and then a week later something happens and you immediately think it's them? Of course you have, everyone does it. Just another thing people like to do.

thats not out of thin air, it was an observable fact... the guy actually existed and quite possibly looked dodgy. out of thin air would mean you imagined a person that never existed commited that something, now that would be thin air

There is / was observable evidence for planets and other celestial bodies. We have no reason to claim suspicion here. A guy developed a new device for looking over distances, they aimed it at the sky, they see 'celestial bodies'. Boom, no reason for people to be suspicious, just curious (or bored).

ah but why was it aimed at the sky, suspicion that something was out there

but this is totally going no where... thanks for the fun :)

 

[Lisa!]

I'm an angel! Does that count?

 

[JaredJames]

...

Yeah, you're trolling. Going to let it slide, don't want the hassle.

 

[JaredJames]

I'm an angel! Does that count?

As real as it's going to get. I'll buy it!

 

[Danger]

I'm an angel! Does that count?

You, my dear, can claim to be anything and I will buy it hook, line, and sinker.



Except for Swedish. I'll never believe that you're Swedish.

 

[drizzle]

I'm an angel! Does that count?

With these two smilies in one line, I believe you're a human. ;)

 

[FlexGunship]

Jared:

Suppose after a long, healthy and prosperous life you peacefully die one day and encounter God or some of his agents, man you are really screwed then!

Pascal's Wager. Very tired.

The correct response here is: "If God (or some of his agents) feel the need to operate in a manner which causes him to seem not to exist, then obviously I'm respecting his wishes."

In other words, if there's a God (or agents) in charge of our existence, then it's no God I want anything to do with. Frankly, it seems like he doesn't want anything to do with us.

 

[JaredJames]

The correct response here is: "If God (or some of his agents) feel the need to operate in a manner which causes him to seem not to exist, then obviously I'm respecting his wishes.

That is bloody beautiful. One to remember.

 

[Danger]

That is bloody beautiful. One to remember.

I second that.

 

[FlexGunship]

Thoughts of existence has to stem from somewhere and from something, if not we would never of thought they existed in the first place... no?

"No" is the correct answer, as you've said.

It's impossibly simple to imagine something that doesn't exist and I'll demonstrate. A unicorn. There's no reason to suggest the existence of it. However, were did the idea come from? The "unicorn" seems to be closely related to a horse. Perhaps the thought began with a horse; something that exists!

How about Medusa? The minotaur? These are amalgamations of things that presently exist. In fact, it seems to be a common thread for mythical creatures. Dragons, griffins, the Hydra, pegasus, and the Sphinx all have this fundamental truth in common. They are normal animals made fanciful by imagination.

Why should expect we anything less of our God-belief? Ever notice how gods have a lot of human traits? They can see as though they have eyes, they become jealous if we worship other gods, they can experience anger, hate, malevolence, as well as love, caring, and companionship.

It is exactly as easy to invent an all-powerful god as it is to invent a horse with a big horn.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

Yeah, you're trolling. Going to let it slide, don't want the hassle.

Obviously, i made that very clear from the start
where i mentioned i was replying for the sake of argument and it was as useless as a religious debate.

Welcome to the convo :uhh:

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

"No" is the correct answer, as you've said.

It's impossibly simple to imagine something that doesn't exist and I'll demonstrate. A unicorn. There's no reason to suggest the existence of it. However, were did the idea come from? The "unicorn" seems to be closely related to a horse. Perhaps the thought began with a horse; something that exists!

How about Medusa? The minotaur? These are amalgamations of things that presently exist. In fact, it seems to be a common thread for mythical creatures. Dragons, griffins, the Hydra, pegasus, and the Sphinx all have this fundamental truth in common. They are normal animals made fanciful by imagination.

Why should expect we anything less of our God-belief? Ever notice how gods have a lot of human traits? They can see as though they have eyes, they become jealous if we worship other gods, they can experience anger, hate, malevolence, as well as love, caring, and companionship.

It is exactly as easy to invent an all-powerful god as it is to invent a horse with a big horn.

Thanks for demonstrating that it actually came from somewhere... ei: a horse, and not thin air

Not saying any of these exist or ever existed. but nothing comes from nothing, unless you watch the universe from nothing by Lawrence Krauss

 

[FlexGunship]

Obviously, i made that very clear from the start
where i mentioned i was replying for the sake of argument and it was as useless as a religious debate.

Very well, I have no problem advancing the discussion with you so long as we don't stray too far from the topic.

I'd like to add that there's no significant difference in our discussion from one about "religion." In fact, "religion" seems to be a keyword we apply to things that we don't particularly want to discuss openly. A belief in a demon (for which there seems to be no evidence other than stories) is not so different from a belief in a/the devil (for which there seems to be no evidence other than stories).

Let's drop the word "religion" ENTIRELY, and use terms like "belief system" and instead of "god" let's use "deity" or "all-powerful entity" which could be similarly ascribed to a demon, or maybe even a ghost.

 

[Danger]

Flex, your reasoning is great. I will point out, however, that sightings of narwhales have been cited as a basis for the legend of unicorns, just as manatees gave rise to mermaids.

 

[FlexGunship]

Flex, your reasoning is great. I will point out, however, that sightings of narwhales have been cited as a basis for the legend of unicorns, just as manatees gave rise to mermaids.

Thanks for the compliment. I believe the argument is the same regardless of what the source-animal is; however, I appreciate the clarification.

The human brain is unparalleled in its ability to misinterpret what it experiences.

 

[jackson6612]

Personally, I don't really believe in demons etc. If you do, I don't have any problems. Science needs some parameters to work on anything. e.g. To work on air one should know its temperature, composition, etc. Sometime in the past a clever and smart magician could have used a colored gas like chlorine (though I think chlorine is poisonous) to claim that he has turned colorless air into colored one. The people would have been fooled because science at that time lacked information (or loosely speaking 'parameters') about the elements (at least in the area where the magician was working). Likewise, perhaps today science lacks those parameters and information which could help one to explore the world of demons etc. What if they exists somewhere among us. I remember I once watched a documentary, perhaps it was on some new theory called string theory or whatever, which claimed something like that some other 'universes' are present at our doorsteps but we cannot see them because they exists in higher dimensions. I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

Please don't try to transform this thread into some kind of religion vs. anti-religion thing and keep your replies productive. Thank you.

Would someone of you please comment on the above quoted text? Thanks.

 

[Evo]

Would someone of you please comment on the above quoted text? Thanks.

You expect someone to actually tell you how demons could be scientifically studied?

You got your answers.