# What is Hydrogen?

1. Apr 27, 2005

### MR. P

Does it evoke fear? Hope? Threat? Opportunity?

I am an advocate of Hydrogen use and desire its' integration into our society. DaveC426913 has been kind enough to help mentor me in choosing the correct format to stimulate a discussion. This issue is extremely important to me and I hope that it will become important to you as well. So for the sake of enlightenment please help me, I am really interested in your knowledge and opinions .

2. Apr 27, 2005

### DaveC426913

'... as an energy source...'

3. Apr 27, 2005

### <<<GUILLE>>>

well, it is clear that nothing could be possible without hydrogen. it is the basic element. from it, all the rest are created. it is 2/3 of water (the 1/3 is oxygen(H2O)) which is the symbol and basic of life. it is the elemnt that occupies the biggest percentage of the universe's composition (does someone know the percentage? I think it was 75% or something.....). it is basically the "Factor" element. I am also a "supporter" of hydogen. does someone know the meaning of the word hydrogen? (it comes from latin or greek, I think so....)

4. Apr 27, 2005

### infidel

I think it means 'water maker.'

Anyhoo, I'm not sure of the thread's purpose...you want to discuss hydrogen as a fuel? In fuel cells, fusion, etc.?

I think it's a great idea if it can be made to work practically. Therein lies the rub, but I'm not up on the recent advances in that direction, so I'll be watching this thread to learn something about it.

5. Apr 27, 2005

### SpaceTiger

Staff Emeritus
Eh, not quite. It is certainly the simplest and least massive element, but atoms are composed of electrons, protons, and neutrons. The difference between hydrogen and some other element is the number of protons. Hydrogen has only one proton.

75% by mass, 90% by number.

6. Apr 27, 2005

### <<<GUILLE>>>

oooh. but I meant that in nuclear fusion that happens in stars, then it is when helium and hydrogen change their number of prot/neu/electrons becomeing other, don't they? I have always thought that. If not, how are the other elements created? and I didn knwo that an element is defined by it's sub-atomic-particles number.

thanks.

to the post on top of SpaceTiger's, I don't know who it is, but I think that if the auther wanted to discuss about hydrogen as a fuel, he wouldn't have put it in the value theory in philosophy, don't you think? I think we just should discuss about it in general.

7. Apr 27, 2005

### SpaceTiger

Staff Emeritus
Sorta. Technically, the simplest fusion reactions involve collisions of protons, but protons are sometimes referred to as singly-ionized hydrogen. It's really semantic, mostly, the important thing is the structural differences between the atoms.

8. Apr 27, 2005

### hypnagogue

Staff Emeritus
So Mr. P, just to be clear, this discussion is about the ethics of using hydrogen as a source of energy? If so, perhaps you could give us more insight on your views about this matter?

9. Apr 27, 2005

### <<<GUILLE>>>

thanks for explaining it to me.

10. Apr 27, 2005

### MR. P

To all of you kindly giving your time to my enlightenment!

I believe hypnagogue Is quite correct regarding my post. That observation ,if for no other reason, is the first step, wether verbalized or intuitive, taken preceding action.

I believe 'informed' is a better prerequisite to action than 'ignorant'. A case in point Dave's opinion regarding the method for engaging discussion. Thank you davec4286913 .

<<<GUILLE>>> thank you for stimulating the repartee as well.

frank MR. P

11. Apr 27, 2005

### MR. P

infidel I think you've probably hit on an area that needs defining.

Upon reflection. there is/are two ways to intrepret the 'idea' of hydrogen as a fuel:
1. From the nuclear standepoint a raw material to 'fuse'
2. From the chemical sense a 'recycleable' energy transport mechanism

Let me claraify that I use 'recycleable' in the environmental context keeping the definition within the format of this thread.

frank

12. Apr 27, 2005

### <<<GUILLE>>>

Regarding hydrogen as a fuel,
is hydrogen nuclear power abailable now? even if it is, it would be negative to our enviroment, compeltely alike to fuel cell motors which only produce heat, water and electricity.

13. Apr 27, 2005

### MR. P

<<<GUILLE>>>

No. Hydrogen as it now stands has not been able to sustain itself in fusion reactions.

I was trying unsuccessfully at making a comparison of the difference between Nuclear reactions (much more powerful) and chemical reactions.The type of recycling that I can readily Hydrogen in the context of a chemical reaction as in the formation of water provides an environmental recycling option that no ther compound offers. When .for example, we electrolyze water making h2 and o2 gasses essentially we are 'creating potential energy' or better said we are converting kinetic energy into potential energy aqssuming that the potential energy lies in the re-oxidation of hydrogen making water fromwhich it came.. An elegant mechanism for storing various enviromentally beigning sources of energy like photo cells , wind ,hydro for future use. etc.

14. Apr 27, 2005

### Pengwuino

I think of cars and neutrons :D

15. Apr 28, 2005

### Reshma

Hydrogen? It is one of the most common elements on earth. Most common element in the universe. Highly combustible because of its high calorific value. Used in fusion bombs. Has a great potential as an environmentally friendly fuel since hydrogen combustion gives water vapour as the end product. Few vehicles are running on hydrogen, but are at an experimental stage.

16. Apr 28, 2005

### cragwolf

Humdrum and ennui. It's everywhere. What, is 90% of the universe not enough? One piddly proton and one measly electron. Not even a neutron, bah! Odorless, colorless, tasteless. I mean, how boring can you get? So boring that it has to hang around oxygen to get any action. I say we get busy right away and start converting hydrogen into more interesting elements. Helium would be a good choice. Funny voices! That's reason enough!

17. Apr 29, 2005

### Reshma

Hydrogen gas was partly responsible for the Hindenburg disaster. Read more

18. Apr 30, 2005

### Staff: Mentor

Too bad you didn't use MR. H as a usename.

Quite simply hydogen is an element. It may be considered stored chemical energy in relation to H2O, and in fact it is rather ubiquitous, as H in hydrocarbons, also a form of stored chemical energy.

One issue is whether H2 can replace present days hydrocarbons (aka fossil fuels) as a principle energy storage medium, e.g. for transportation. Besides the technical issues of storage and material degradation, the main issues are economy and safety, which are themselves tied to the technical issues.

Hydrogen is used in a variety of industrial processes already, and there are furnaces which use cracked ammonia (2 NH3 -> N2 + 3 H2) to provide a reducing atmosphere.

As for fusion, in stars (see threads on stellar nucleosynthesis, PP cycle or CNO cycle), the fusion of hydrogen (P) occurs under conditions not realized on earth.
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/energy/cno-pp.html
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/energy/cno.html
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/energy/ppchain.html

Heavier light elements can be formed with fusion of 3He and 4He with Be or C, e.g.

3He + 7Be -> 10C

but more likely

4He + 7Li -> 11B
4He + 7Be -> 11C
4He + 9Be -> 12C + $_0^1n$
4He + 11B -> 14C + p or 14N + $_0^1n$
4He + 12C -> 16O

Those type of reactions would produce C, N and O in the sun for instance, although once 12C is produced, then the CNO cycle can then develop.

Fusion, if it can be developed, would likely use the other hydrogen isotopes, deuterium, D (pn), and tritium, T (p2n). However, there are aneutronic reactions like p+7Li and p+11B, which are difficult to achieve.

Last edited: Apr 30, 2005
19. May 1, 2005

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
20. May 1, 2005

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
This is a list of all good links to date - posted in the thread above and the parent thread:
A Hydrogen economy: Be a part of the change! https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=4127

Posted approximately in the order discussed:

Scientific American Frontiers: Future Cars [Watch the video online]
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/index.html

Questions about a Hydrogen Economy; Scientific American
http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse....B9BE5E6-2B35-221B-6F2461DEF9B52B9C&sc=I100322

Office of Nuclear Energy, Science and Technology
U. S. Department of Energy
Nuclear Hydrogen Initiative Nuclear
http://www.nuclear.gov/infosheets/hydrogenfactmarch2003.pdf

The National Hydrogen Association
http://www.hydrogenus.com/

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/hydrogen/iea/

http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html

http://education.lanl.gov/resources/h2/education.html

http://www.stuartenergy.com/

HYDROGEN AND THE MATERIALS OF A SUSTAINABLE ENERGY FUTURE
WORLD WIDE WEB SITE
Hosted by: Los Alamos National Laboratories
http://education.lanl.gov/resources/h2/education.html

International Energy Agency Hydrogen Program
http://www.ieahia.org/

Includes discussion of
BIOMASS TO H2
DIRECT PRODUCTION FROM WHOLE BIOMASS
Gasification
Thermal/Steam/Partial Oxidation
PRODUCTION OF STORABLE INTERMEDIATES FROM BIOMASS PARTIAL CONVERSION
Small scale reformer technologies
Photovoltaic cells plus an electrolyzer
Photoelectrochemical cells with one or more semiconductor electrodes
Photobiological systems
Photoelectrolytic and Photobiological Production of Hydrogen

Case Studies of Integrated Hydrogen Energy Systems
http://www.ieahia.org/case_studies.html

Hydrogen by Catalytic Decomposition of Water [search "Hydrogen"]
http://www.netl.doe.gov/
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...,468,499.WKU.&OS=PN/6,468,499&RS=PN/6,468,499

Also at the site above: search Hydrogen
HYDROGEN FROM COAL
DENSE CERAMIC MEMBRANES FOR HYDROGEN SEPARATION

Hydrogen - The Department of Energy
http://www.energy.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=ES_HYDROGEN
Time to Escape from the Grid: Wired Magazine
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,60089,00.html

http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/7/10/1

First two myths about renewable energy need to be dispelled
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/14/6/2/2

Fuel cells: environmental friend or foe?
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/7/6/10/1

More on fuel cells
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/11/7/2/1

Hydrogen Safety Facts
http://www.hydrogenus.com/H2-Safety-Fact-Sheet.pdf

Hydrogen at Home; The H2 Horizon: Re Iceland, which has gone H2 already
http://www.loe.org/ETS/organization...User_Session=63e33af74b5bc33216035afa351f1a58

Fuel from water [credibility of author unknown]
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/hydrogen/index.html

Gas Hydrages
http://www.fe.doe.gov/programs/oilgas/hydrates/
http://oceanusmag.whoi.edu/v42n2/whelan.html
http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/project-pages/hydrates/who.html

The NHA's Hydrogen Commercialization Plan
http://www.hydrogenus.com/commercializationplan.asp

The NHA's Hydrogen Implementation Plan
http://www.hydrogenus.com/implementationplan.asp

Multi-step metal oxide cycles for solar-thermal water splitting"
http://www.pre.ethz.ch/cgi-bin/main.pl?research?project6

Solar Production Of Zinc: Concentrated solar energy is used as the source of process heat for the dissociation of zinc oxide
http://solar.web.psi.ch/daten/projekt/zno/roca/roca.html

Mechanical Engineering "Power & Energy," March 2004 -- "Packaging Sunlight," Feature Article
http://www.memagazine.org/pemar04/pckgsun/pckgsun.html

Analysis of Solar Thermochemical Water-Splitting Cycles for Hydrogen
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...solar+furnace"+efficiency+cost+problems&hl=en

Concentrating Photovoltaics: Collaborative Opportunities within DOE’s CSP and PV Programs
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31143.pdf

Rapid Solar-thermal Dissociation of Natural Gas in an Aerosol Flow Reactor
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...solar+furnace"+efficiency+cost+problems&hl=en

1. Union of Concerned Scientists www.ucsusa.org.
2. American Methanol Institute www.methanol.org.
3. Fuel Cells 2000 www.fuelcells.org.
4. California Air Resources Board www.arb.ca.gov.
5. National Hydrogen Association www.hydrogenus.com.
6. Los Alamos National Laboratory (see below)
7. California Fuel Cell Partnership www.drivingthefuture.org.
8. The US Fuel Cell Council www.usfcc.com.
9. California Hydrogen Business Council www.ch2bc.org/

White House press release
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030206-2.html

Also, search "Hydrogen"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/

Fuel Cells
http://education.lanl.gov/resources/fuelcells/

Fues Cells coming of age
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/information/coming_of_age.html

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars: ecoworld article
http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=284

NASA Spaces on Energy Solutuion: Wired article

DEVELOPING IMPROVED MATERIALS TO SUPPORT THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY
http://www.hydrogenus.com/EMTEC-EFC-RFP01A.pdf

International Association For Hydrogen Energy
http://www.iahe.org/

Sustained Photobiological Hydrogen Gas Production upon Reversible Inactivation of Oxygen Evolution in the Green Alga Chlamydomonas reinhardtii
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/1/127

Hydrogen; Quick Facts
http://www.hydrogenus.com/hydrogen-basics.asp

Europositron technology: a private enterprise
http://www.europositron.com/en/background.html

Brayton Cycle engines
http://www.almturbine.com/

Hybrid Turbine Electric Vehicle
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1996/6000/6920v.htm
http://search.grc.nasa.gov/query.ht...qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rq=0&rf=0&tx=0&go=Search

UK company way ahead of the market in creating green hydrogen
http://search.grc.nasa.gov/query.ht...qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rq=0&rf=0&tx=0&go=Search

Hydrogen Economy looks out of reach: Nature article
UK company way ahead of the market in creating green hydrogen

Running On Thin Air
Iceland is making its dream of a hydrogen economy come true
http://www.time.com/time/europe/specials/ff/trip1/hydrogen.html

California Unveils State's First Hydrogen Refueling Station: News item
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410230010.html

Fusion reactor decision must wait: BBC report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3997249.stm

Hybrids vs. Hydrogen: Which Future Is Brighter?
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Hybrid/story?id=266883&page=1

hydrogen from methanol
http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Jun02/NPO19948.html

hydrogen from coal
http://www.nuclear.com/Energy_policy/Coal_gas_news.html

hydrogen from nuclear power

hydrogen from sunlight
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html

hydrogent from wind
http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=502

fuel cells
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-03s.html

Technical issues of a hydrogen economy
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/1.html#pagetop

hydrogen from methanol [url]http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Jun02/NPO19948.html

hydrogen from coal
http://www.nuclear.com/Energy_policy/Coal_gas_news.html

hydrogen from nuclear power

hydrogen from sunlight
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html

hydrogent from wind
http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=502

fuel cells
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-03s.html

Technical issues of a hydrogen economy
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/1.html#pagetop

Scientists develop new hydrogen reactor: CNN news item
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/02/13/hydrogen.reactors.ap/

Ethanol and the Environment
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_envir.html
http://www.free-eco.org/articleDisplay.php?id=21
http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm#net
http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2004/june/060904a.htm

A group of non-specific links from various poster:
http://www.iogen.ca
http://www.sheclabs.com
http://www.ecologen.com/page_TSSOM2-75.html
http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/releases/archive/04-076.shtml
http://www.azonano.com/details.asp?articleID=1022
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1291187/posts
http://www.forrelease.com/D20040519...3352.28636.html
http://groundstate.ca/node/68

Food, Energy, and Society [book]
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870813862/102-1402138-4812900

Hydrogen economy for a sustainable development:state-of-the-art and technological perspectives
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870813862/102-1402138-4812900

The Hydrogen Economy: Physics Today article
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/p39.html
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/PDF/vol57no12p39-45.pdf

The Hydrogen Economy: Opportunities, Costs, Barriers, and R&D Needs (2004)
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/

Hydrogen Economy Offers Major Opportunities But Faces Considerable Hurdles

Supercritical-Water-Cooled Reactor
http://energy.inel.gov/gen-iv/scwr.shtml

Clean coal compendium and related articles:
http://www.netl.doe.gov/cctc
http://www.careenergy.com/news/articleview.asp?iArticle=7
http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/mdaf.html

Automobile Emissions Reduction Efforts in the U.S. - Chronology
http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/auto-emissions_chronol.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p01s04-sten.html

Articles posted from Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2502&page_number=1
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3418&page_number=1
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3418&page_number=1
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3296&page_number=1
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=4343&page_number=1

The Dirty Folly of "Clean Coal"
http://www.ems.org/energy_policy/clean_coal.html

Coal Combustion, Public Health and the Environment
http://www.ems.org/energy_policy/coal.html

Emissions of greenhouse gases
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/gg98rpt/emission.html

More on nuclear options for Hydrogen
http://nuclear.gov/home/11-09-04.html
https://www.pbmr.com/
http://gt-mhr.ga.com/
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/analysis/nucenviss2.html
https://www.pbmr.com/3_pbmr_technical_info/pbmr_technical_contents.htm#PBMRFuel

Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

ASU researcher gets grant to explore new methods of hydrogen generation

Quantum Dots and Tunable Bandgap
http://www.evidenttech.com/applications/quantum-dot-solar-cells.php

Hydrogen for residential combined heat and power
http://www.waterstof.org/20030725EHECO3-132.pdf

"Ethanol has the potential to be an integral part of the emerging hydrogen economy. Its properties make it an excellent liquid fuel for the extraction of hydrogen.
http://www.maui-tomorrow.org/issuespages/energy/ethanol_hydrogen.html

Hydrogen powered motorcycle: news item

T-Zero Electric Car [hot!]
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm

Windmills in the Sky: Wired News item

Solar Tower of Power: Wired News item
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66694,00.html

About H2 ICE: Internal Combustion Engines. They're here...

H2 CARSBIZ
http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/index.shtml