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Smurf
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What is the purpose of a state institution within a society?
What of the enforcement of the public morals?Pengwuino said:Deleted
Now Now ... back to the topic.Smurf said:Awww I didn't get to see what he said.
To protect individual rights.Smurf said:What is the purpose of a state institution within a society?
Sticks a GOOBF card into TSM's computer. (I'm easy)The Smoking Man said:(Asside: the Moderators are HOT today. Nice work!)
Ahahahaha ... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:Gokul43201 said:To protect individual rights.
Okay ... so the guy who builds the houses decides to leave ... what then?pi-r8 said:I agree with Goku. The only proper purpose of a state institution- I assume you mean a government?- is to protect individual rights.
Imagine that you're living in a primitive society of hunters and gatherers. There's no government at all. You spend your days looking for food and shelter, with maybe the occasional break to get it on with a hot neanderthal chick.
Maybe it turns out that you prefer the food that grows somewhere else. That's ok, you can get it by trading the people who live there your food for their food, and then you have two kinds of grubs. No government is necessary for this.
Please don't leave me lines like that.Evo said:Sticks a GOOBF card into TSM's computer. (I'm easy)
Somebody else does the job. What's the problem?The Smoking Man said:Okay ... so the guy who builds the houses decides to leave ... what then?
If they're good at it, great. If not, they won't be able to make a living and they'll have to go back to gathering.The Smoking Man said:So the women decide they don't like gathering and want to try hunting.
When were they being 'used' in my society? I didn't even mention women!The Smoking Man said:So the women don't particularly like being 'used'.
Great. In our society, this is called an encyclopedia, and it's completely unrelated to the government.The Smoking Man said:So you have elders who have knowledge of when where and how to hunt and become the repositry of lore.
Idealistically or realistically? I think Gokul is just providing thoughts on the ideal. Knowing Smurf...The Smoking Man said:Ahahahaha ... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
MAYbe in the USA.
For centuries, the world over this has NEVER been the case.
And even in America at the moment, regardless of what is stated about 'of', 'by' and 'for' the people, you'll find it caters to industry and lobby groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_StateA nation-state is a specific form of state, which exists to provide a sovereign territory for a particular nation, and derives its legitimacy from that function.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnarchistAnarchism is a generic term describing various political philosophies and social movements that advocate the elimination of all forms of social hierarchy.
Oh, please ... why do you judge the word 'government' on the last 50 years of 'the American experience'.pi-r8 said:Somebody else does the job. What's the problem?
If they're good at it, great. If not, they won't be able to make a living and they'll have to go back to gathering.
When were they being 'used' in my society? I didn't even mention women!
Great. In our society, this is called an encyclopedia, and it's completely unrelated to the government.
Never has a greater truth been spoken. Bravo.Burnsys said:The role of almost all goverments is to protect the rich from the poor.
What? When did I judge government by the modern US government? When did I ever mention any real government? It's true that the US government is closer to the ideal than any other, but it still has a lot of problems.The Smoking Man said:Oh, please ... why do you judge the word 'government' on the last 50 years of 'the American experience'.
Do you think this is all indicative of the history of man and all of the world at the present time?The question is the 'State' not the 'States' as in the 'USA'.
I agree. I agree about the necessety of laws, that's why my government had them. I do not agree that people will simply give up and starve if they are unsuccessful at an endeavor. Personally, I will try my hardest to live well until the day I die, no matter how many times I fail. If someone else would rather give up and starve to death, I feel no sympathy.The Smoking Man said:Nature reflects government and it isn't pretty.
When there are no laws, the house builder is enslaved and the women are raped... and no the people don't go back to 'gathering' when they are unsuccessful ... most times they starve.
? I never condemmed old people sharing their knowledge, if that's what you mean. I just pointed out that it's not really a form of government.The Smoking Man said:What you just condemned was one of the oldest forms of government ... the tribal council.
Burnsys said:The role of almost all goverments is to protect the rich from the poor.
I don't get this. Why would they not go back to gathering? Have they some how lost the ability? Are their minds somehow far too dull to even follow their survival instinct and do what they are successful at to keep themselves alive?TSM said:and no the people don't go back to 'gathering' when they are unsuccessful ... most times they starve.
You can call that the bare minimun the poor need to keep the poor working for the rich at slave wage (Compared to the profit the rich make out of their workers)pi-r8 said:That's odd. How come the rich pay taxes to provide the poor with food, school, and healthcare?
pi-r8 said:How come most of the m oney for the military that protects EVERYONE comes from the rich?
TrueI suppose you think that the rich need a government to stop the poor from taking their property, right?
Kind of trueWhile this is true, it is also true that the government stops the rich from taking the property of the other rich,and the poor from taking the property of the other poor
Then why are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer?It's the rich who are least protected by government, these days
Because most people who are rich are rich for a reason- they're good at making money. Likewise, most people who are poor are bad at making money. No government intervention is necessary for the gap between these two groups to increase.Burnsys said:Then why are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer?
pi-r8 said:Because most people who are rich are rich for a reason- they're good at making money. Likewise, most people who are poor are bad at making money. No government intervention is necessary for the gap between these two groups to increase.
Go back to the post before where he uses the observation of the primitive man scenario (metaphore) where hunter gatherer is mentioned.TheStatutoryApe said:I don't get this. Why would they not go back to gathering? Have they some how lost the ability? Are their minds somehow far too dull to even follow their survival instinct and do what they are successful at to keep themselves alive?
I'm imagining that there is some reason why you see it that way in our current society and that you are stating it metaphorically perhaps?
Or, As Orwell said "Some Pigs are more equal than others."Jonny_trigonometry said:I disagree. Have you heard of lobbyists? payoffs? what about sneaky wording in proposed bills? Or even direct declarations like "and all congressman will receive a pay raise of 10%..."? or free dinners, vacations, resources, use of a company jet, or free publicity offered by the rich? All these things provide leverage by the rich to have their say in law making, and running the country. As long as they can distract a law maker of their conscience by a round of golf, then the rich can expliot the poor more easily.
Tell me, was GWB 'good' at making money?pi-r8 said:Because most people who are rich are rich for a reason- they're good at making money. Likewise, most people who are poor are bad at making money. No government intervention is necessary for the gap between these two groups to increase.
Burnsys said:The role of almost all goverments is to protect the rich from the poor.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:pi-r8 said:That's odd. How come the rich pay taxes to provide the poor with food, school, and healthcare? How come most of the m oney for the military that protects EVERYONE comes from the rich? It would seem that, contrary to what you assert, it's the rich who are getting the shaft from the government.
I suppose you think that the rich need a government to stop the poor from taking their property, right? While this is true, it is also true that the government stops the rich from taking the property of the other rich, and the poor from taking the property of the other poor. And yet no one cries foul when the rich are robbed yearly to pay for things that go toward benefiting the poor.
It's the rich who are least protected by government, these days.
Burnsys said:The role of almost all goverments is to protect the rich from the poor.
pi-r8 said:That's odd. How come the rich pay taxes to provide the poor with food, school, and healthcare? How come most of the m oney for the military that protects EVERYONE comes from the rich? It would seem that, contrary to what you assert, it's the rich who are getting the shaft from the government.
I suppose you think that the rich need a government to stop the poor from taking their property, right? While this is true, it is also true that the government stops the rich from taking the property of the other rich, and the poor from taking the property of the other poor. And yet no one cries foul when the rich are robbed yearly to pay for things that go toward benefiting the poor.
It's the rich who are least protected by government, these days.
When Cheney took over Halliburton, they went from paying 79 million in taxes to receiving a 300 million refund due to off shore accounting.Jonny_trigonometry said:I disagree. Most of the really rich don't even pay taxes, there are plenty of ways to write them off when you're rich. Of all the rich people in the country, I bet less than a quarter of them pay taxes. There are so many loopholes in laws it's not funny. You may have been led to believe that the rich pay the most in taxes, well not the super rich, they don't pay crap. Look at John Ashcroft who received 800,000 from the IRS 2 years ago, he's already really rich, but why did he not have to pay taxes, but in fact receive taxes? Loopholes!