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What is the problem

  1. Oct 16, 2004 #1
    It seems to me that before we got ourselvs into the war in Iraq the problem of "terrorism" was simple. What did the "terrorists" want..only 2 things. They wanted us to get our troops out of Saudi Arabia (wich is Islams holiest land..if im not mistaken) and to stop our unconditional support for Isreil. What I dont understand about that is ....its soo simple :bugeye: . Why didnt we just do it? It seems to me (although I dont know exactly where I stand on this issue) that the United States would be better off if it just left the middle east alone and let the United Nations do its job. Its too complicated to be sticking your nose into. You have Isreal who is ruthless in its attacks on any other people than its own.http://www.waroffice.us/israel.htm I mean seriously. I heard on BBC news yesterday that Isreali solders shot a middle school girl dead..with 20 bullets :eek: . Then you have the other great problem of the middle east..Islam. I think Islam means peace? I know its ignorant to generalize so I wont....Islam isnt the problem, the problem is fundamental Muslims. If you compare fundamentle anything(christianity for one) yeah they can be annoying. Like they will preach you to death..but fundamental Muslims, thats a different story. I dont think I need to get into that. One big issue that I dont understand is why does America support Isreal? Its a very developed country and can stand up for itself. Does anyone have any insight?
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2004
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  3. Oct 16, 2004 #2
    We couldn't leave Saudi Arabia because we were enforcing the UN mandated armistice with Iraq,which include the no-fly zones. We were able to remove ourselves after the Iraq war.

    Israel is a developed country BECAUSE of our support, and at one time, that of western Europe too.

    We reign in Israel just as much as we support her. The country could steamroll all of Palestine if they wanted.
    Israel's past support has been justified due to the relationships benefits to us during the cold war. We continue to support Israel because they are a security and economic ally. Asking why we support Israel is the same as asking why we support any other economic and security ally.
    What exactly are you looking for?
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2004
  4. Oct 16, 2004 #3
    Security? It seems like supporting their military actions, mostly agianst civilians if I may add is hurting us. If you go to BBC news you can read that about their week long military campaign in Gaza. 120 people died a wopping 1/3 of them...yep you guessed it were civilians. Elderly and the very young if I may add.
  5. Oct 16, 2004 #4


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    But, Israel has also broken 69 UN resolutions. That was the last count, I believe. If a country breaks UN resolutions, such as Iraq, how come Israel isn't targetted by the US?
  6. Oct 16, 2004 #5
    69... :bugeye: thats alot!
  7. Oct 16, 2004 #6


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    Indeed. I don't want to mystify the discussion, but an Israeli government official assassinated a UN official several years ago. The UN is aware of Israel's involvment in the assassination. I'll see if I can find the link.

    This one might be a tad biased:


    Here's another one:


    And one from a bit more credible of a source:


    Edit: Seems to be that an actual soldier of the Israeli army assasinated the UN official.

    The most ironic thing is Israel is actully breaking a current resolution that allows weapons inspectors to inspect Israel's weapons cache. Saddam deceived, and somewhat allowed, but Israel blantly refuses. Which one's worse?
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2004
  8. Oct 17, 2004 #7

    First: The last two links are the same story, one is just a repost of the other.

    Second: If you call the guardian unbiased, i would be terrified to see what you consider to be biased reporting. Although that particular story did not seem too saturated with their personal politics that newspaper is well known for the opposite of "journalistic integrity and lack of bias."

    Yeah Israel has done a lot of things it shouldn't have. But the US government does hold them back a lot. As to why the US continues to support them, its become a ingrown part of the American political right--traditionally it was out of a guilty conscience about not acting soon enough against the holocaust--hence the creation of the state. Supporting was an issue of protecting it from the hostile nations it was surrounded by who attacked it first. The support of Israel is something that is taught as a moral imperative by conservatives. Taken out of historical context, even i find supporting it to be unviable at best. But in when reexamined in historical context, we made our enemies in the middle east by trying to atone for our sins in not intervening in Europe. So because we tried to do the right moral thing, we made permanent enemies there. They demanded we turn our backs on our morality--can't do that--and now its gotten to where israel is our only ally in fighting enemies we got by trying to do the right moral thing. You see, unlike France, we've stuck to our commitment to make up for what we did wrong.

    Israel is a country with a culture of survival--for thousands of years they're been invaded, enslaved, so on and so forth. Its part of their cultural psyche. Of course they're going to respond with overwhelming force to any threat, because to them every threat is one that could potentially end their country's existence.
  9. Oct 17, 2004 #8
    Israel is in a bad situation and the US backing away isnt gonna help. The whole power balance in the region will change to somthing unpredictable, and the Palestinians wont suddenly get their state.
  10. Oct 17, 2004 #9
    Because Israel plays ball with us, Iraq didn't. Or was this a rhetorical question? I'm sure you already knew this answer.
  11. Oct 17, 2004 #10
    nice spin.

    Show me this resolution so I can read its text.

    It isn't about which is worse. Israel isn't a signer of the NPT. Iraq was. Israel hasn't signed an armistace allowing war to resume if conditions aren't met, Iraq was.
  12. Oct 17, 2004 #11
    Do you know why we were able to shoot down Russia's MIGs??? Because Israeli spies brokered a deal with an Iraqi air force member and had him fly one to Israel. The plane, the pilot, and his family were then shipped to the US. We dissassembled the plane, and air superiority reversed.
    Israel has been critical in the projection of US power in the region and the world.
    I don't want to get into personal opinions on this.
    The past has shown assisting Israel to benefit us.When the benefit of Israel exceeds the cost of support, she will be cut loose. Hopefully, that day doesn't come anytime soon.
  13. Oct 17, 2004 #12


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    You vastly oversimplify: terrorism has existed since before the '91 gulf war. Further, the terrorists have said fairly explicitly that they want to annihilate us and Israel. This isn't a fight we can walk away from because it will follow us.

    Further, you guys are flat-out ignoring the terrorist issue altogether.

    I was going to go through and point out all the factual errors, mischaracterizations, and logical fallacies, but its pointless: everything you guys are saying is just wrong.
  14. Oct 17, 2004 #13


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    You're focusing on the 'buzz words' without really analyzing the history and motives of the people tossing the buzz words around.

    Just like saying "We need politicians not beholden to special interest groups and corporations!" gains you a sympathetic audience in the US, tossing the buzz words of "Evil USA" and "Evil Israel" earns you a sympathetic audience in the Middle East. Many people in the US feel uncomfortable about the influence (or at least perceived influence) of corporations and interest groups that donate large amounts of money to election campaigns. Many people in the Middle East feel uncomfortable about the rapid cultural changes occurring in their countries.

    Saudi Arabia and Israel are not the primary motivators for terrorist groups. If not these buzz words, they would find others. The fact that a sympathetic audience for terms like "Evil USA" exists is a problem, but that sympathy doesn't extend to endorsing terrorism or war against the West among mainstream Arabs. At best, it gains a little tolerance among a minority of the Arab population.

    The goal of most your fundamentalist terrorist groups is a sectarian government enforcing strict adherence to traditional Islamic values. Considering the fact that much of the change in Middle Eastern culture has been seen as positive, the primary goal of the fundamentalist groups would not make a very appealing message to the general public, hence the dependence on pointing out the evils of outside influence instead of talking about the benefits of returning to a strict fundamentalist tradition.

    (Edit: Kind of like the reasoning behind the Swift Boat ads - Hey, there's only a couple of weeks of Bush bashing left before the election. Got to get my last shots in).
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2004
  15. Oct 18, 2004 #14
    I know what I said is a bit overboard and oversimplified but when you think about it that region is just a big mess. The fundamentalists are *#&$ crazy!!!! lets just put it like that. But the Isrealie Palastinian conflict is too much. Isreal is an established nation..the paramilitaries fighting against it are not. The paramilitaries such as Hamas,Al-aqsa martyrs...ect have no moral obligations, Isreal does...it just does. Isreal cant say Hamas blew up a bus so now we are gonna shoot hellfire missles into the most densly populated community in the world....you just cant do that.
  16. Oct 18, 2004 #15


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    Why not? Doesn't being human imply an obligation?
    Why not?
  17. Oct 18, 2004 #16
    Well they cant because Hamas is not the legitimate leadership of palistine. Its not like the palistinians voted for representation by them, they are just a group of thugs that get moral support from palistinians b/c they are giving isreal a taste of its own medicine not to mention financial aid to victims of isrealie solders (and yes being human implies obligations, but I dont consider someone who blows themselves up to kill civilians human). Being human implies obligations that exactly why isreal cant just shoot at random(ie...i consider isrealies to be humans,unlik the hamas,al-aqsa martyrs..ect). Unless you want to tell me isreal is a nation of thugs you must atleast think at some point that what they are doing to palistinian civilians is immoral.
  18. Oct 19, 2004 #17


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    Wait, so Hamas is a bunch of thugs, but Israel is still wrong for attacking them?? That doesn't make sense. The fact that Hamas is a bunch of thugs (terrorists) is the reason why Israel has the high ground here.
  19. Oct 20, 2004 #18
    I think you know what I mean. Isreal is a great country, I think I heard that they have the best urban warfare team in the world. They need to kill Hamas b/c that hamas's goal for them. It isnt very difficult for them to do so, what I dont agree with is when they fire missles into RESIDENTIAL areas. I know isrealies hate palistinians(as do palistinians hate isrealies) but that doesnt give them the right to kill civilians(for both sides), the difference in the palistinian case is that there is no one to answer for it. Its wrong but whos gonna take the blame...???? Palistine is basically in anarchy...Isreal isnt, in the isrealie case there are people standing behind there actions as if it were morally correct. For palistine who stands behind the attacks? Hamas doesnt represent the people..hamas's actions are acts of terrorism...so should isreal react by terrorising a people who are 2 way victims(victims of hamas's actions and that of isreals reactions).
  20. Oct 20, 2004 #19


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  21. Oct 20, 2004 #20
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