What is wrong with Israel ?

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Can someone explain me why

- Israel would bomb a water well, upon which the survival of innocent lives relies ?
- Israel would forbid plastic remplacement pieces for those wells to cross the borders ? Plastic cannot be melt to built weapons.

As the days, the weeks, and the years go along, I just do not understand how one can sympathize with Israel. As the facts gather, the more I read the news, I just build up guilt because of the feelings that I grow towards this country.
 

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  • #2
Evo
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Hi humanino, please post a link to the source so we can discuss.

Thanks.
 
  • #3
tiny-tim
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speculation time!

Can someone explain me why

- Israel would bomb a water well, upon which the survival of innocent lives relies ?
- Israel would forbid plastic remplacement pieces for those wells to cross the borders ? Plastic cannot be melt to built weapons.
oh, it's speculation time! :biggrin:

(perhaps this should be transferred to the https://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33" sub-forum? :wink:)

let's see :rolleyes:

is this in the gaza strip? … let's assume it is …

the gaza strip isn't a desert, and it has a proper water distribution system, both for drinking water and waste water, so the survival of lives can't depend on one well …

is that the right answer? :smile:
As the days, the weeks, and the years go along, I just do not understand how one can sympathize with Israel. As the facts gather, the more I read the news, I just build up guilt because of the feelings that I grow towards this country.
since you appear to want to sympathise with israel, i suggest you concentrate on the eight years of fatal rocket attacks on israeli civilian towns, and the israeli insistence on allowing sufficient food electricity and other essential humanitarian supplies as an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions :smile:
 
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  • #4
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I can only find one sided reports on the incidents you mention. If you want to support Israel, I recommend reading pro-Israel material. If you want to oppose Israel and side with the Palestinians, I recommend reading anti-Israel material.

tiny-tim,

Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKTRE50I2LU20090119
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rael-under-huge-pressure-to-halt-attacks.html

The numbers speak for themselves, and demonstrates why animosity exists towards Israel. The numbers indicate that you have one superpower trying to bully millions of people who cannot defend themselves or have sufficient food, water or electricity.
 
  • #5
tiny-tim
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selective statistics

tiny-tim,

Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3

The numbers speak for themselves, and demonstrates why animosity exists towards Israel.
that's a rather one-sided selection of statistics …

the israelis seem to think that hamas has been attacking civilian towns with rockets, with many fatalities, for 8 years …

i wonder whether they might be right? :wink:

but i agree with you … if people use statistics as selectively as those, then no wonder those people have animosity towards israel :smile:
 
  • #6
turbo
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http://cgi.wn.com/?action=display&article=82352466&template=worldnews/paidnews.txt&index=recent

"Eight main water artesian wells were either fully or partially destroyed during the [Israeli] bombardments," Shoblak said.

But repair work is hampered by import bans. Israel has banned imports of items such as pipes, saying they may be used for making bombs. The CMWU was also not able to import excavators, heavy vehicles, and other specialist equipment. During the Israeli offensive virtually no repair work could be carried out, Shoblak said, adding: "Eight repair workers were killed in the Israeli attacks."
Israel also raised the ire of the French Foreign Minister by holding up a French diplomatic delegation trying to enter Gaza, and by refusing to allow a badly-needed French-made water treatment plant into Gaza. He called the Israeli ambassador to Paris to explain the refusal and got no satisfactory reasons.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/palestine/?id=30133 [Broken]

The plant could have supplied 2000 cubic meters of clean water per day.
 
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  • #7
tiny-tim
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hmm … that's from 19 days ago … it comes from Gaza's top water engineer, Majed Ghannam … it begins …
With Gaza's sewerage system on the verge of collapse, a top water engineer has warned of the risk of groundwater contamination in the enclave, making clean water scarcer than it already is.

Gaza is particularly vulnerable to groundwater contamination since its sandy desert soil easily absorbs water - or sewage from leaking sewage pipes. Compounding the risk is the fact that groundwater is relatively near the surface, and wells dug to access it tend to be shallow.
'sfunny how 19 days later we haven't heard of sewerage collapse or groundwater contamination or indeed any water-related problem …

i wonder why this news is being suppressed? :wink:
 
  • #8
nabki
Because it's been happening since the siege on gaza started? I don't know where you get your news, but i've been seeing a lot of videos on various networks of water problems in gaza.
The fact that a water processing plant is not being allowed into gaza is pretty funny. lets analyze this situation:
Hamas uses rockets to attack israel.
Rockets are either imported grad rockets or home brew pipes with a funnel at the top, some sugar, gunpowder spice (TNT, urea nitrates), and explosive nice.
Lets be stupid for a minute, and pretend that water treatment plants can be reverse engineered and used for military purposes, or even more silly and pretend that hamas are going to use the piping for rockets.
That means the french were ignorant enough to send some weapons to hamas.

Now, lets snap back to reality. why was the water treatment plant refused entry into gaza? tiny-tim, this question is directed to you specifically. Why was it not allowed into gaza?
 
  • #9
tiny-tim
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What is wrong with the French?

Now, lets snap back to reality. why was the water treatment plant refused entry into gaza?
i assume it's because the water treatment plant wasn't sufficiently necessary to justify making an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions against gaza

the whole point of economic sanctions is to make things difficult …

so long as the water supply is sufficient, the inconvenience of having to use bowsers is no reason why israel and egypt should allow the french to weaken their economic sanctions

israel and egypt have of course been continuously allowing humanitarian aid in … see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...ian_aid_Gaza_after_IDF_operation_Jan_2009.htm for details up to Feb 16
 
  • #10
Gokul43201
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  • #11
russ_watters
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I'm going to operate on the assumption that the information in the OP is accurate, for the purpose of the discussion...

Can someone explain me why

- Israel would bomb a water well, upon which the survival of innocent lives relies ?
- Israel would forbid plastic remplacement pieces for those wells to cross the borders ? Plastic cannot be melt to built weapons.
The best way to deal with this would be for you to read-up on the concept of siege warfare and then ask specific questions about what you don't understand. Here's the wiki on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege

In short, though, since the military and civilians are completely intertwined, in order to attack the military supply sources in Gaza, you must attack the civilian ones as well. A random water well likely serves both civilians and the military. The necessity of this and the blockade can easily be seen by the fact that the Hamas military loots humanitarian relief for the purpose of sustaining it's military. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=29802&Cr=gaza&Cr1=unrwa

The intertwining of the civilian and military supply strucutres and therefore the insertion of them into the conflict is Hama's choice, not Israel's.
As the days, the weeks, and the years go along, I just do not understand how one can sympathize with Israel. As the facts gather, the more I read the news, I just build up guilt because of the feelings that I grow towards this country.
That's a very odd thing to say. Israeli attacks on Gaza do not in any way harm Israel directly, so searching for sympathy for Israel in them is a complete irrelevancy. Quite obviously, if one wants to look for reasons to sympathize with Israel, they should look to the actions of Hamas against Israel. Based on your wording here, it implies you have no interest in analyzing the situation objectively, but are looking only for reasons to demonize Israel.

Note, the inverse is slightly different: reasons for sympathizing with the Palestinians can be found in both Israel's actions (such as the ones you listed) and with Hamas's (such as the issue I brought up above). Hamas picks the battlefield and chooses to put the civilians of Gaza at risk as a calculated strategy in this conflict.
 
  • #12
russ_watters
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tiny-tim,

Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKTRE50I2LU20090119
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rael-under-huge-pressure-to-halt-attacks.html

The numbers speak for themselves, and demonstrates why animosity exists towards Israel. The numbers indicate that you have one superpower trying to bully millions of people who cannot defend themselves or have sufficient food, water or electricity.
Animosity toward Israel is not based on that body count - if it were, the many cease-fires that Israel has tried would end up being permanent. If you want to know why the animosity exists, just ask Hamas: It exists because Israel exists on land they claim as their own. Thus it is quite logically clear that any peace under the current status quo is to Israel's benefit and Hamas's detriment: so it is in Hamas's interest to continue to fight -- which is, of course, why the fighting continues.
 
  • #13
turbo
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i assume it's because the water treatment plant wasn't sufficiently necessary to justify making an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions against gaza

the whole point of economic sanctions is to make things difficult …

so long as the water supply is sufficient, the inconvenience of having to use bowsers is no reason why israel and egypt should allow the french to weaken their economic sanctions

israel and egypt have of course been continuously allowing humanitarian aid in … see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...ian_aid_Gaza_after_IDF_operation_Jan_2009.htm for details up to Feb 16
You seem to be missing the point that denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law. Israel is letting in a bit of humanitarian aid as a fig-leaf - the sad fact it that it is far too little to relieve the deprivations that Palestinians in Gaza are suffering. Collective punishment of this type is criminal.
 
  • #14
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Hi humanino, please post a link to the source so we can discuss.
Hi Evo. The reason I chose not to post a link is that I wonder how someone who is not already aware of those events could have a relevant opinion on those questions anyway. If this is not suitable to PF guidelines, you are welcome to close.
Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3
So at some point it is not even a matter of quantity anymore, it is a matter of different quality. Please pardon my french, but we have reached a phase transition here.
Based on your wording here, it implies you have no interest in analyzing the situation objectively, but are looking only for reasons to demonize Israel.
Then my wording must be deeply wrong. I think I'd better stop the discussion until my head cools down.
 
  • #15
russ_watters
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i assume it's because the water treatment plant wasn't sufficiently necessary to justify making an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions against gaza

the whole point of economic sanctions is to make things difficult …

so long as the water supply is sufficient, the inconvenience of having to use bowsers is no reason why israel and egypt should allow the french to weaken their economic sanctions

israel and egypt have of course been continuously allowing humanitarian aid in … see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...ian_aid_Gaza_after_IDF_operation_Jan_2009.htm for details up to Feb 16
Note (to all) that this explanation requires a conclusion or assumption that Israel's explanation for the denial is a lie or incomplete. I'm ok with that: war isn't PC, so giving the full military reason for making life difficult for everyone in Gaza would not be in Israel's interest. People (as we can clearly see in this thread) have blinders on and don't view the entire situation in it's proper context. This is how war works, guys, and you need to deal with it. Hamas is in control of the direction of the war: they are the ones who have objectives to achieve via fighting, not Israel. They are responsible for the plight they put their citizens in by continuing to fight.
 
  • #16
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denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law
And what I am wondering about is crystal clear : when will it no longer be inappropriate for the international community to state it clearly against Israel ?
 
  • #17
tiny-tim
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well, that oxfam report confirms that repairs are well in hand, without french assistance …
The wrecked electrical control panel has been replaced by water utility engineers. Outside, the huge orange generator sits smashed, awaiting repair. Shrapnel holes in the diesel tank have already been welded over.
and even that report doesn't allege that there is any general sewerage collapse or groundwater contamination (though there is considerable damage to the surface soil of farmland near the sewage plant)
 
  • #18
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russ is right. there's really no such thing as humanitarian aid in a war. the warriors just divert the aid. or if it's an entire government you're dealing with like in Iraq, it just means there is that much less the government has to do to sustain the population, and so it takes pressure off the government, materially and politically.
 
  • #19
russ_watters
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You seem to be missing the point that denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law. Israel is letting in a bit of humanitarian aid as a fig-leaf - the sad fact it that it is far too little to relieve the deprivations that Palestinians in Gaza are suffering. Collective punishment of this type is criminal.
Israel does not recognize that they are an occupying force in Gaza. The internationl community may not have lifted that designation, but neither are they willing to attempt to enforce the requirements of the label. They know that the situation is not as simple as that. They know that Hamas, not Israel, is the main reason for the suffering of the citizens of Gaza. They know that enforcing the rules of war must start with the removal of Hamas and prosecution of most of it's members, so to go after Israel would be a rediculous hypocrisy.
 
  • #20
russ_watters
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Hi Evo. The reason I chose not to post a link is that I wonder how someone who is not already aware of those events could have a relevant opinion on those questions anyway.
I hope you realize you just declared yourself an authority on the subject. We don't accept that. That's why you must post your links: it isn't just for the knowledge of others, it is to prove that what you say is true.
 
  • #21
russ_watters
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And what I am wondering about is crystal clear : when will it no longer be inappropriate for the international community to state it clearly against Israel ?
As soon as the international community deals with the cause of the problem: Hamas. To go after Israel first would be hypocritical.
 
  • #22
russ_watters
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russ is right. there's really no such thing as humanitarian aid in a war. the warriors just divert the aid. or if it's an entire government you're dealing with like in Iraq, it just means there is that much less the government has to do to sustain the population, and so it takes pressure off the government, materially and politically.
Note, this is also the situation in North Korea, but for some reason, sympathy for the North Koreans isn't popular these days. No doubt, though, if North Korea started lobbing rockets across the border and South Korea responded, people would be demonizing South Korea despite the fact that North Korea has been a self-imposed humanitarian disaster for decades.
 
  • #23
Skyhunter
Note, this is also the situation in North Korea, but for some reason, sympathy for the North Koreans isn't popular these days. No doubt, though, if North Korea started lobbing rockets across the border and South Korea responded, people would be demonizing South Korea despite the fact that North Korea has been a self-imposed humanitarian disaster for decades.
No it is not the same. The two scenarios are quite unique.

For one, Hamas was a legally elected to the government.
 
  • #24
turbo
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Israel does not recognize that they are an occupying force in Gaza. The internationl community may not have lifted that designation, but neither are they willing to attempt to enforce the requirements of the label. They know that the situation is not as simple as that. They know that Hamas, not Israel, is the main reason for the suffering of the citizens of Gaza. They know that enforcing the rules of war must start with the removal of Hamas and prosecution of most of it's members, so to go after Israel would be a rediculous hypocrisy.
Israel was complicit in the rise of Hamas, when they were trying to divide the Palestinians and reduce the authority of the PLO. Guess what? When Hamas won a democratic election, Israel and the US found it inconvenient to deal with Hamas. They had done their level best to isolate the PLO and avoid any substantive negotiations, and then when Hamas was elected, they had to demonize that organization, too.
 
  • #25
tiny-tim
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adequate humanitarian supplies

You seem to be missing the point that denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law.
well, obviously it is … who's denying that? :rolleyes:

you're missing the point that israel and egypt are allowing adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc into gaza …

see eg the link i posted earlier … http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...n_Jan_2009.htm
denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law
And what I am wondering about is crystal clear : when will it no longer be inappropriate for the international community to state it clearly against Israel ?
and against egypt? or just against israel? :biggrin:

well … it would need to be true, for a start :rolleyes:

the international community has a high regard for truth! :wink:
 

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