What is wrong with the Islamic world?

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  • Thread starter Aquamarine
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In summary: Islam is not a violent religion. There are passages in the Quran which permit violence, but they are few and far between. As a muslim, I find it shocking that anyone would suggest that the Qu'ran is a violent book. I believe that it is a book of guidance and peace. The true understanding of Islam is the basis of peace.
  • #36
Hi all,

I would like to ask you to study the back ground of the current conditions. Just read carefully the following facts before judging others:

Current Facts:

- Islamic world representing 23% of the world population. It includes more than 55 nations with different local cultures. For example, could you compare Turkey and Tunisia with Iran and Saudi Arabia? Or could you compare the UAE (very rich country) with Yemen (very poor country)? Generalizing against Islamic world seems silly idea.
- In last century, 137 Millions of people were killed in wars, only 3 millions in Islamic world! The rest of the victims were in Europe and Africa (2WW: 51 million Victims).
- Hitler, Nazi, Zionism, Fascism, KKK, Holocaust, ethic cleansing, concentration camps, Nuclear and chemical attacks … all are products of the Western Civilization or Judeo-Christian culture. This means every civilization and every culture have good and ugly face.
- The entire Islamic world is secular except Saudi Arabia and Iran (even many Muslims do not agree with their laws).
- Women have in many Muslims countries similar rights to the man: Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, Syrian , Iraq (before the occupation) , Malaysia … etc
- There are 100 wars in Africa, just the victims of Rwanda within two months are more than the victims of all the wars in Islamic in last 30 years! Media rarely care about that.
- Slavery in Africa link with local culture , also Christian involve in most of slavery trading , just check this site of BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3131400.stm
Why media rarely mention that? Because the evil criminals using the Bible to justify the slavery, raping and murdering of kids.

Historical back ground of the current situation:

- Rise of Civilization 7th century -13 the century: The Islamic civilization rises in the 7th century and became the dominant civilization till the 15the century …
Examples of Islamic civilization:

- Baghdad was the center of the world in the 9th century. It population around two millions.

- The first translation university was built in Baghdad in the 9th century. It was called (Dar Al Hikmah) or Wisdom House. They translated hundred thousands of Greek, Persian, Roman, Hebrew, and Indian documents and books to Arabic.


- For the first time, Jews, Muslims and Christian succeeded to live in peace in liberal (semi democratic society) in Spain in the 10th century.

- Many schools of laws were established in 11th and 12 century.

- The largest Islamic State is Indonesia (20% of Muslims in the world), no Islamic army reached this State. The people converted to Islam due to economical relations, the same as Malaysia and SE Asia.

Islamic civilization and Science

Specific Muslims scientists and their contribution in human civilization:

- Alhazen, is considered as the father of modern Optics:

http://www.unhas.ac.id/~rhiza/saintis/haitham.html
http://brightbytes.com/cosite/what.html



-Sample of Muslims scientists and their contribution in different fields:
http://www.unhas.ac.id/~rhiza/saintis/

-The first world map by AL-IDRIS
http://www.soundsofislam.com/idrisi.html

- Islam and medicine:

Guardian Newspapers, 9/10/2003
http://www.buzzle.co.uk/editorials/9-10-2003-45271.asp

Chemical medicine

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/arabic/c..._medicine5.html


Chemistry or al-kimiya

http://www.tlchm.bris.ac.uk/webproj...rmer/arabic.htm

Muslims and Weapon

http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/s...r/Weapons2.html


- Mathematics

History of mathematics: you can choose from 500 to 1300, most of scientists have Arab or Islamic names:
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/...logy/index.html

About 810
House of Wisdom set up in Baghdad. There Greek and Indian mathematical and astronomy works are translated into Arabic.

About 810
Al-Khwarizmi writes important works on arithmetic, algebra, geography, and astronomy. In particular Hisab al-jabr w'al-muqabala (Calculation by Completion and Balancing), gives us the word "algebra", from "al-jabr". From al-Khwarizmi's name, as a consequence of his arithmetic book, comes the word "algorithm".

About 850
Thabit ibn Qurra makes important mathematical discoveries such as the extension of the concept of number to (positive) real numbers, integral calculus, theorems in spherical trigonometry, analytic geometry, and non-euclidean geometry.

About 850
Thabit ibn Qurra writes Book on the determination of amicable numbers which contains general methods to construct amicable numbers. He knows the pair of amicable numbers 17296, 18416.

About 900
Abu Kamil writes Book on algebra which studies applications of algebra to geometrical problems. It will be the book on which Fibonacci will base his works.

About 900
Abu Kamil writes Book on algebra which studies applications of algebra to geometrical problems. It will be the book on which Fibonacci will base his works.

920
Al-Battani writes Kitab al-Zij a major work on astronomy in 57 chapters. It contains advances in trigonometry.
About 960
Al-Uqlidisi writes Kitab al-fusul fi al-hisab al-Hindi which is the earliest surviving book that presents the Hindu system.

About 970
Abu'l-Wafa invents the wall quadrant for the accurate measurement of the declination of stars in the sky. He writes important books on arithmetic and geometric constructions. He introduces the tangent function and produces improved methods of calculating trigonometric tables.

976
Codex Vigilanus copied in Spain. Contains the first evidence of decimal numbers in Europe.
About 990
Al-Karaji writes Al-Fakhri in Baghdad which develops algebra. He gives Pascal's triangle.

About 1000
Ibn al-Haytham (often called Alhazen) writes works on optics, including a theory of light and a theory of vision, astronomy, and mathematics, including geometry and number theory. He gives Alhazen's problem: Given a light source and a spherical mirror, find the point on the mirror were the light will be reflected to the eye of an observer.

About 1010
Al-Biruni writes on many scientific topics. His work on mathematics covers arithmetic, summation of series, combinatorial analysis, the rule of three, irrational numbers, ratio theory, algebraic definitions, method of solving algebraic equations, geometry, Archimedes' theorems, trisection of the angle and other problems which cannot be solved with ruler and compass alone, conic sections, stereometry, stereographic projection, trigonometry, the sine theorem in the plane, and solving spherical triangles.

About 1020
Ibn Sina (usually called Avicenna) writes on philosophy, medicine, psychology, geology, mathematics, astronomy, and logic. His important mathematical work Kitab al-Shifa' (The Book of Healing) divides mathematics into four major topics, geometry, astronomy, arithmetic, and music.

1040
Ahmad al-Nasawi writes al-Muqni'fi al-Hisab al-Hindi which studies four different number systems. He explains the operations of arithmetic, particularly taking square and cube roots in each system.

1072
Al-Khayyami (usually known as Omar Khayyam) writes Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra which contains a complete classification of cubic equations with geometric solutions found by means of intersecting conic sections. He measures the length of the year to be 365.24219858156 days, a remarkably accurate result.

1130
Jabir ibn Aflah writes works on mathematics which, although not as good as many other Arabic works, are important since they will be translated into Latin and become available to European mathematicians.

1142
Adelard of Bath produces two or three translations of Euclid's Elements from Arabic.

1149
Al-Samawal writes al-Bahir fi'l-jabr (The brilliant in algebra). He develops algebra with polynomials using negative powers and zero. He solves quadratic equations, sums the squares of the first n natural numbers, and looks at combinatorial problems.

1150
Arabic numerals are introduced into Europe with Gherard of Cremona's translation of Ptolemy's Almagest. The name of the "sine" function comes from this translation.

1411
Al-Kashi writes Compendium of the Science of Astronomy.

1424
Al-Kashi writes Treatise on the Circumference giving a in both sexagesimal and decimal forms.remarkably good approximation to

1427
Al-Kashi completes The Key to Arithmetic containing work of great depth on decimal fractions. It applies arithmetical and algebraic methods to the solution of various problems, including several geometric ones and is one of the best textbooks in the whole of medieval literature.


Causes of the fall of Islamic civilization:



- Crusaders wars: 200 years of religious catholic wars against Muslims, Jews and orthodox Christian. These wars exhausted the ME societies.

- Mongolian wars: Before the end of crusaders wars, Mongolian invaded the East. They destroyed Baghdad, killed 800000 people and burn its well known library.

- Fall of Spain: Muslims lost Spain in the end of 15th after 800 years of great civilization. Spanish changed the trading from ME to South Africa, which had great economical impact.

- Islamic scholars stopped developing the laws since 14 century, which made many of them not suitable for modern societies.


- Ottoman Empire, ruled the Islamic world recently. They faced many wars with Russia, Romania, Balkan, Greece, UK, France, Egypt …

Historical background of current situation:

- The imperialist western countries occupation the third world countries including the Islamic world. Some countries as Algeria lost 3 million people to get independence … other countries as Palestine, the people replaced by the European Jews (ethic cleansing)
- The Imperialist countries withdraw from the Islamic world in 50s and 60s, they left puppet dictators ruling these countries: Suhartu : Indonesia, Shah: Iran , Bu Raqiba : Tunisia …..
- Imperialist countries never care about the right of nations, and they supported the dictators (as Bush admit recently) for decades against the will of nations.
- Israel was inserted by FORCE in the region and by FORCING the Palestinian to leave their homeland. Western countries are responsible about the tragedy of Palestinian especially, UK, France and USA. This is considered as symbol of western aggression against people of the east.
- During cold war, Islamic world in general supported USA: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt (after 1973), Malaysia, Iran (before 1979) … without support of these major Islamic countries, the results of cold war could be not the same. Islamic world stopped the expansion of communism, only South Yemen with population less than half of million was communist country! (Beside former Soviet republics and Albania)
- Many people who hate their pro West dictators supported the Left and communist groups as alternative to those bloody dictators in 60s, 70s and mid 80s.
- After the fall of USSR, many people believed in Islam as alternative to protect them from those dictators and from the imperialism.
- More than 90% of Islamic groups and parties accepted the democracy as part of Islamic political system (as in Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Malaysia…)
- Only few small extremist groups are supporting to target the civilians, those groups were supported during the war of Afghanistan by USA and the West to face the Communism
 
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  • #37
chem_tr said:
Studentx, your first paragraph is okay, but the second one is not. If you are mentioning 9/11, I'd say that they were inhuman, persuaded by their foul fundamentalist phantasies. They couldn't be muslim if they thought "how can I kill thousands of people". Let me give an example, a muslim is such good-hearted person that he takes one piece of rock on the road, in order not to be hazardous to anyone. These examples you're talking about are the worst to the concept "muslims". Please do visit a more civilized muslim country like Turkey, and see with your own eyes.

Apparently all 20 men were considered real muslims up until the moment they died. Ofcourse they are the scum of the islamic world, but they were muslims. To say that all your muslim brothers are incapable of doing such things (which you are implying by saying these men were never muslims), it means you are ignoring the problem and force outsiders to clean up the mess that the islamic world allows to grow. If they don't have the power to crush suicidebombing and this branch of terrorism like a cockroach,(ala Salman Rushdie), then the religion needs to reform.

And Bilal, your figures can't be straight. The war between Iran and Iraq alone costed 2million muslim lifes, add gw1+2 and you are already close to 3 million, in just 2 Islamic countries, in just a few years.
 
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  • #38
The Butt Veil

Aquamarine said:
http://humphrys.humanists.net/islamic.world.html

Culture changes take time.

Just a few decades ago, the American culture beat the asses of school girls who showed too much of their legs. Remember the Taliban and there sticks on mainstream news? We Americans are only few decades away from this same behaviour,but they are criminals and terrorists and extremists huh?

We were hanging people and torturing our own citizens just a few more decades from this. But we Americans are so innocent now.

Hollywood a few decades ago represented slapping your ditzy b*!ch as an ordinary thing. That too was modern American culture. Not too long ago either.

There a more examples, but I want to mention transition.

Islamistists cover much of there body with clothes, more than modern Americans do. But not much more than Americans a few decades ago. We're talking just a few square inches of covered body area. A small percentage. It's negligible.

Culture transitions take time. Americans didn't change over night. Clothing hang ups isn't the only thing that takes time. But all these things will change for the Arab world. But murdering them decreases there own imminent desire to transition. Democracy occurs from within not from without, and these principles are inherent to all humans.

If they reveal a bit more, you might want to think what it might be like for yourself. Cut a hole in the ass side of your pants and walk downtown showing your hairy buttocks. Will this feel confortable to you? What's your hand up American?
 
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  • #39
Dear Student,

The victims of Iraqi-Iran war less than one million (700000 Iranian and 300000 Iraqi). It is also considered as war between secularism (Saddam) and theocracy (Khumaini. Thanks to Roland Reagan government who blessed Saddam (remember the picture of Ramsfiled in 1986).

Sadly, it was the bloodiest war in Islamic world.

By the way, Saddam is considered one of the most anti Islam leaders. He closed most of mosques in Iraq and banned Hijab! Also he killed most of Muslims scholars, even he did not accept to call Islam as main religion of Iraq. He just used the religion in 90s to get some support against his former alliance (USA).

If you check the politics of USA in 80s, you will realize that Sadadm and OBL were supported by USA and their puppet regimes in the east (e.g. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia). Without this support, those two people will never get any power …
Why you throw the trash of CIA on Islam, just because they claimed to be muslims?!



studentx said:
And Bilal, your figures can't be straight. The war between Iran and Iraq alone costed 2million muslim lifes, add gw1+2 and you are already close to 3 million, in just 2 Islamic countries, in just a few years.
 
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  • #40
tumor said:
Did you try to read Bible? Wars, murder, rapes, that's about it. BIBLIE!


I concur...
 
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  • #41
Ethanol said:
I would like to know the ungodly things if i can clear them for u.

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

you know things like "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them."

will God say stuff like that?

and things like: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
 
  • #42
What is wrong
 
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  • #43
Microburst said:
IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

you know things like "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them."

will God say stuff like that?

.


Just a little bit of misconception on your part. Allah does not want us to kill christians and jews because they believe in one GOD. Jews are considered closest to muslims on the basis of culture by most scholars at least in Pakistan they think so.

Among non believers who desire ""so that you might be (all) alike"" have to be dealt with iron hands. Its way has been described in the early days of islam as

1.They are told that they accept islam considering it a true religion.
2. If they do not want to accept islam they should pay some tax each year and the Muslim Empire will be responsible for their security in return of that tax.They will not be harmed and should let muslims(who have converted on their own free will) to live peacefully among themselves.Religious tolerance is must.
3.If they do not agree to these terms then they should fight.

And I should inform u about the leniant behaviour of muslims in the society with the non muslims.At the end of War of Baddar 75 were taken prisoner.Those who could not pay ransome were set free. Those who could read and write had to teach 10 muslim children as ransome.Those who could pay ransome were not deprived of their wealth completely, just a little bit of ransome even though many of them were quite rich.
 
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  • #44
studentx said:
And while on the subject of headscarves, islam does not teach that wearing one is mandatory, and certainly does not teach that not wearing one is punishable. Making it mandatory basically means that wearing a headscarve means nothing. It doesn't show her modesty, she does it because she has to. Making it punishable and mandatory means that the islamic world has not the faintest clue about its own religion anymore

Well it is pretty much of an order by God though it is upto a woman to wear it.
I can't agree with the second thing. Of course there are women who r forced to waer scarves but i say most do on their own free will.i don't think many women do it because they have to. A simple example is that I am from a very liberal muslim family. Mom wears no scarf, dad does not compell us to do so but i wear a scarf just because i want to hide from the dirty leering eyes of the crowd. I think it was a very good decision of mine and a scarf does not stop me from going out with my friends to public spots and parties.

And of course u r true again,because Muslims are in poor state in the world right now because they haven't got a clue what islam really is.

Our Leader Muhammad ali Jinnah(Pakistani) said ' Islam is not a religion,it is a complete code of conduct in life.Our culture,laws and jurisprudence sets us apart from other nations.' And i believe that it was this belief that led Muslims of subcontinent to claim a free independant state of their own. ( I'm really proud of that :smile: )
 
  • #45
Microburst said:
and things like: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Well actually somehow or other the three cultures jews, christians and muslims have always been planing destruction for each other so they better leave each other alone. Also Muslims have suffered a great deal due to the threats of jews in Madinah (there were no christians in the cith then).Even after the Pact Of Madinah , Jews internally kept a close contact with Meccans intentionally to harm muslims. They backed out in The War of Tribes
against the pact and for that they were banished. How can anyone forget the Crusades with christians?

I don't think there is any problem with friends of other religions if they are trustworthy. I do have two christian friends.
 
  • #46
MiGUi said:
When religion has the power, the fundamentalism rises and rises. In Europe we spend many efforts and many blood to reach the humanism, then the Renaissance and finally the religion was separated from governments.

Islamic religion says that anyone which don't believe in Alá and so its stuff must to be killed to save its soul, or else converted. This kind of religion can't coexist with us. The christian religion respects the other religions, but islamic don't.

In fact, all can be reduced to this: Is they, or us. They medieval society, or our modern society.

They will no stop until we were blown off. So we must destroy them before.



:confused:

whhhhhhat?
it is not true?
how tell you that??
Islamic religion not order to kill anyone .I'm muslim and I'm glad and happy.I have many Friend in many Country ,from Italy , Canada , Riuses
and Idon't feel they are scared from I.
and all my friend is not muslim...
So we must destroy them before.[/QUOTE]
we must!
how are you?
you are don't have to say that
read carefully about Great Islamic religion
 
  • #47
Religion is not a good ground to build society on. As I have said before, there will be no progress in the Islamic world until it embraces capitalism. To see some of the effects look under The superiority of the west here:
http://humphrys.humanists.net/islamic.world.html

Or here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=48717
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=47317

The only thing that the capitalistic countries need from the Middle East are oil. And that can relatively easily be remedied through nuclear power and probably biodiesel. The day oil is replaced, the Middle East will sink into deepest poverty since they have wasted their money on the playboy lifestyles of their rulers and an unproductive religious educational system.

Furthermore, it is not the west that should be envied. The coming century probably belongs to China, and it will be they who will be forced to decide the fate of the moslems.
 
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  • #48
Aquamarine said:
Religion is not a good ground to build society on. As I have said before, there will be no progress in the Islamic world until it embraces capitalism.

The day oil is replaced, the Middle East will sink into deepest poverty since they have wasted their money on the playboy lifestyles of their rulers and an unproductive religious educational system.

Well u haven't heard anything about the past muslim societies may be when constantinople samarkand bokhara and cordova were developed on the basis of religion. Like i said in my post that a religion like islam is a code of conduct of life. Islam does not explain how to pray in koran even if it has been ordered to pray in the Holy Koran. Islam tells how to spend a life in society. it does not make people go and live in forests to learn through hardships. It does not stop priests from getting married. The basics of all religions is to live your life in society such that from every action of yours the mankind as a whole gets the benefit.

To tell u the truth Middle East can sink no lower now. They completely rely on their money and no matter what money cannot buy technology even though u can buy as many toasters as u want.

Education system in Islam is based on two continuous branches.
1. Compulsory religious education, so that every one can decide what is good for them.
2.Worldly education, which is compulsory for those who can afford it . It is very important that most of the people in society get this kind of education too.(see posts by Bilal, all the success was met when Muslims truly followed islam)

Capitalism is not the only way to succeed in achieving progress. In the reign of Caliph Umer bin Abdulaziz people used to look tirelessly for poor to give their yearly alms(zakat). Most could not even find any as every one was so prosperous.
 
  • #49
Sites about how secular Islam:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.secularislam.org/

The first one has a quite active forum.

Quran’s Teachings:
Find out what is the inspiration behind the hate and violence in Islamic terrorism?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

As I have stated earlier in this thread, Christianity have similar teachings in the bible. The difference being that since the Enlightenment, the Bible has lost most influence in the Western world.
 
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  • #50
Aquamarine, to me the idea of a society being based on religion is quite out-dated and generally bad.. but is a society based on greed really better?
 
  • #51
Smurf said:
Aquamarine, to me the idea of a society being based on religion is quite out-dated and generally bad.. but is a society based on greed really better?

Smurf, have a look at: www.indoctrinatecapitalistpropaganda.org[/URL].
All evidence points out that even poor greedy white people have better telephones than bearded semitic middle class praying people. Don't underestimate the importance of good telephones with color movies.

:rofl:
 
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  • #52
Page Cannot Be Found

hmmmm
 
  • #53
MiGUi said:
Maybe because 9/11. They cannot assume any risk. Thats what we have to do to preserve our freedom

"Those who whould give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin, 1755
 
  • #54
I think Islam was a highly evolved religion compared to Christianity's barbaric past until the recent radicalization that caused it to regress or de-evolve while Christianity continued to transform itself . Christian anti-Semitism has a long and terrible history, as does Christian aggression against Islam during the Crusades and against fellow Christians during the Wars of Religion. But after each outpouring of violence, the church has been forced to ask itself: Is this what Christianity is about? In time the answers came, and except for small, radical fringes, Christianity as a whole has repudiated war, coercion, and hate as ways to further the Christian message.

I think we are at a point, not of the clash between the West and Islam, it is, instead, the clash between Muslims as they try to define their faith for the 21st century. Much the same way the Christians did with their many wars amongst each other. Islam clearly does not speak with one voice. It shows nearly as much diversity as does Christianity. This is where this religion stands and it is at a crucial crossroads at which we can hopefully play a part.

Is Islam fundamentally opposed to human rights by its inherently theocratic thrust? Why do Muslim countries have such deplorable records on human rights? .

Human beings are being traded as slaves in Sudan. Has the government in Khartoum been flooded with protests from every corner of the Muslim world?.

No one can deny the lack of women's rights under Islam. The widespread practice of female genital mutilation in Muslim countries alone signals the reality of women's oppression. Women are forbidden even to drive a car in Saudi Arabia. But niether was America interested in the plight of the horrific oppression, enslavement and killing of the women under the Taliban until Sept 11th. (Yet, Mohammad's second in command I believe was a woman.) My most radical feminist friends are Muslim who see the Q'uran as more liberating than the Bible but they hemmoraged out of the Middle East and there are none back home to take up their interpretation and reading of the Q'uran to advance the cause of women.
 
  • #55
:biggrin: Aquamarine, it's getting chilly in Hong Kong now, just 18 C this afternoon I checked, and I suspect it is getting cold in your country as well (unless of course you are in Aussieland), so I'd say, as a friend, put aside your heroic effort to change the world, or divide and rule whatever it is, and, as we Cantonese say all the time, save your breathe and warm your tummy, which is what I am doing now :tongue2:

Cheers
 
  • #56
Smurf said:
Aquamarine, to me the idea of a society being based on religion is quite out-dated and generally bad.. but is a society based on greed really better?
Depends on what you consider "better." If, for example, you consider eating to be better than not eating, then yes, capitalism is better.

adrenaline said:
But niether was America interested in the plight of the horrific oppression, enslavement and killing of the women under the Taliban until Sept 11th.
That isn't really true - Afghanistan was long on the radar of places we needed to fix and we've discussed for years how to do it. It wasn't important enough to us to do anything about it until 9/11, but we were certainly "interested" in it.
 
  • #57
adrenaline said:
Is Islam fundamentally opposed to human rights by its inherently theocratic thrust? Why do Muslim countries have such deplorable records on human rights? .
Adrenaline I don't want to burst your bubble, but the #1 offender of the Geneva Conventions is Israel, closely followed by the United States. [Don't say it russ, The Geneva Convention Is there to protect Human Rights]
Human beings are being traded as slaves in Sudan.
and going to USA
Has the government in Khartoum been flooded with protests from every corner of the Muslim world?.
Didn't bush get Eggs thrown at him the first time he was elected?
No one can deny the lack of women's rights under Islam.
Apparently the same does not hold true for Human Rights violations of the West in recent years. [see above]
My most radical feminist friends are Muslim who see the Q'uran as more liberating than the Bible but they hemmoraged out of the Middle East and there are none back home to take up their interpretation and reading of the Q'uran to advance the cause of women.
Maybe the problem isn't Islam then, but something.. else?
 
  • #58
Adrenaline I don't want to burst your bubble, but the #1 offender of the Geneva Conventions is Israel, closely followed by the United States. [Don't say it russ, The Geneva Convention Is there to protect Human Rights]

The Geneva Convention is primarily about warfare and not about humans rights in general.

It is ridiculous to compare the US or Israel to those crimes committed in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Liberia, Nigeria, Uganda, Sierra Leone and many other countries:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2003.htm

Crimes of Saddam Hussein againt the Geneva Convention during the war:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm260.cfm
 
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  • #59
"What is wrong with th Islamic world?"

As long as no one tries to convert me, I get along fine with Muslims (this actually goes for any religion,... as well as insistant salesmen... and spam emails etc.), and I respect the religion. I believe it contains many good principles, and fundamentally aims for peace.

But here are my two cents :

1. One of the 5 pillars states that everyone should visit the Mecca once in his lifetime. Now I actually wouldn't mind visiting Mecca, but the pillar seems to immediately place the Middle East as a privileged area for Islam, for assuming the entire world was Muslim, how could the billions of people in N. and S. America, Europe, Asia, and Africa possibly ever travel to Mecca? There probably (hopefully) isn't a direct link but from an economic point of view, this would quite directly make tourism go through the roof, and since last century, fuel demand, both of which would be good for S. Arabia. I'm not aware of any similar economically linkable necessary actions in other religions.

Also, I think the Qu'ran is poetic in Arabic, but not quite so in other languages, so it again, the religion seems to place Arabic people (and those who speak Arabic) in a privileged position.

2. On a more political level, there seems to be many inner conflicts between Muslim groups. Examples may be between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, or Sunni vs Shiite.

3. A side of me would be curious to know the numbers of Muslim kamikaze vs the number of non-Muslim kamikaze in various periods of History. Unfortunately, there is a tendency to associate the two, due to current media coverage. Along with current events, I roughly understand some of the frustration comes from Islam not being the great power it once was centuries ago.

Fortunately, I have met Muslims who have shown me the lighter side, but I have found it always better to not talk about religion too long.
 
  • #60
I am not a Muslim or a Christian..

For the Christian people here, did Jesus say slavery is wrong? this is not detrimental, just a plain question, so i can be more enlightened about Christianity..

because from my experience with the Bible, i have seen parts where slavery is accepted...



Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (1Tim. 6:1-5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. (Eph. 6:5-6)

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval. (1Pet. 2:18-29)

My christian friends, please respond to this...

Second, i see people accusing Muslims for being violent in their conversion tactics and it is true, because as an Indian, i know my nation's history, the Mughals came into our towns and showed the people the Quran and a sword, and unless the people accepted the Quran they were beheaded with the sword...

but as a logical person, i can see this on the other side (Christianity) too,

In 1122 Christian crusaders swept over Jerusalem and slaughtered men, women and children, 'until their horses were knee deep in blood. We then went to the church to thank the Lord for his mercy.'

In 777 , Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning.

Queen Isabella, famous for sending Columbus to the New World in 1492, was well known also for her 'Spanish Inquisition', the gruesome torture and murder of tens of thousands of Spanish Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people who read or wrote, uppity women, and anyone else not up to the Queen's strict standards. Isabella was a champion of the faith, piously congratulating herself as her victims writhed to their deaths in the flames and the many other ingenious methods of torture invented by her inquisitors.

As an outsider, this is what i have read and derived from my experience and when i finish reading the Quran, I will have some questions for my Muslim friends here too...
 
  • #61
My christian friends, please respond to this...
Are you familiar with any Christian communities that are enslaving people...today? otherwise bibilicly speaking...it's really freakin irrelevent.
 

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