What to do with 20,000lbs of Na?

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  • #1
Integral
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3825610222960975525&pr=goog-sl" [Broken]
 
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  • #2
Danger
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Man, they could have pulled enough boiled fish out of there to feed a small city. They should have thrown a couple of tonnes of potatoes and carrots in first.
 
  • #3
SticksandStones
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I love chemistry :rofl:
 
  • #4
Mallignamius
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It was devoid of fish, or so said the narrator.
 
  • #5
Danger
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Oh... I couldn't make out most of the narration because the playback was jumpy on my system. Maybe I'll watch it again on a different one.
 
  • #6
G01
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LOL, reminds me of the time I stuck a piece of magnesium in a bunsun burner flame in high school chemistry!
 
  • #7
Astronuc
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It was devoid of fish, or so said the narrator.
It certainly was after they dumped the Na into it.

Why they just didn't park it at the Hanford Reservation or Idaho, I don't know. Add to the list of stupid things that government does.
 
  • #8
Moonbear
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It certainly was after they dumped the Na into it.

:rofl: Yeah, they were saying it was an alkaline lake, and I was wondering if that was before or after they started dumping in Na. :uhh: Anyone need a lake full of drain cleaner?
 
  • #9
Mallignamius
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Well, if it did have an animal population, what would the result be after the sodium dump?
 
  • #10
Cyrus
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It certainly was after they dumped the Na into it.

Why they just didn't park it at the Hanford Reservation or Idaho, I don't know. Add to the list of stupid things that government does.

Come on, that was totally worth it! :biggrin: kaplowey.


20,000lbs heads for distruction ladies and gentleman! Yes you heard me right!
 
  • #11
Astronuc
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The rationale behind dumping it was also very stupid - "because a public (common) carrier wouldn't accept it for transport'. So why didn't the military transport it, or contact one on many chemical companies, one of whom probably made the material?

I just don't buy it. Monsanto, Dupont, Dow, Union Carbide, . . . . and so on, transported lots of hazardous materials.

How did the military get it in the first place?
 
  • #12
Astronuc
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Well, if it did have an animal population, what would the result be after the sodium dump?
Basically it would dissolve the flesh away from the skeleton.
 
  • #13
Integral
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In navy boot came they did a demo of what happens when Na and water mix. The instructor dropped a small chunk of Na into a 5 gal bucket of water, it imediatly launched itself high (~50+) into the air... way cool.

Yeah, you just have to wonder if some officer just didn't want to see what would happen.


RE Magnisium in a bunsen burner.

In a past job we had been casting aluminium parts in house and were changing to an external souce using Mg. We were looking for a way to strip paint from a new Mg part... put it in a furnace to burn it off.... all that was left was a pile of grey ash.
 
  • #14
Mallignamius
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Basically it would dissolve the flesh away from the skeleton.
What I mean is, would there be some far-reaching effects to the animals both in and around the lake?
 
  • #15
Cyrus
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What I mean is, would there be some far-reaching effects to the animals both in and around the lake?

Thats a huge lake, and considering that most of the sodium burned, my guess is no. Actually, you could probably find out by seeing if lake lenore has any 'sodium contamination'
 
  • #16
ShawnD
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Thats a huge lake, and considering that most of the sodium burned, my guess is no. Actually, you could probably find out by seeing if lake lenore has any 'sodium contamination'

Metals burn to form metal oxides. Sodium oxide is an incredibly strong base, so it will still react with water the same way sodium does.
Na + H20 --> H2 + NaOH
Na2O + H20 --> H2 + NaOH
 
  • #17
Cyrus
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But those were 3 small barrels in a huge lake. I doubt they could devistate the waters.
 
  • #18
Mallignamius
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6,670 pound small barrels?
 
  • #19
Cyrus
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how many millions of gallons of water in that lake?
 
  • #20
Mallignamius
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Narrator says 3,500 lb barrels. It's closer to 6 barrels. But that's still small, so I get what you're saying.
 
  • #21
Cyrus
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And they threw it into a lake that is already high in salt content.
 
  • #22
Astronuc
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Now for an update on Lake Lenore -

Lenore used to feed water into Soap Lake from the north before the irrigation system was built and Lake Lenore was freshened and diluted. Lenore, once as mineralized as the upper layer Soap Lake is today, now is relatively fresh and supports sport fishing.
http://www.thelake.org/gallery.html [Broken]

Pictured are Lahontan Cutthroat caught and released from an Eastern Washington alkali lake, called Lake Lenore. For their size Lahontans don't seem to fight as hard as Rainbows or Browns, but what they lack in zip, they make up for, in beauty.
http://www.fisheyesoup.com/article_details/132.html [Broken]

Lake Lenore, near the town of Soap Lake, is producing Lahontan cutthroats of 6 pounds or more.
 
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  • #23
Ivan Seeking
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The rationale behind dumping it was also very stupid - "because a public (common) carrier wouldn't accept it for transport'. So why didn't the military transport it, or contact one on many chemical companies, one of whom probably made the material?

I just don't buy it. Monsanto, Dupont, Dow, Union Carbide, . . . . and so on, transported lots of hazardous materials.

How did the military get it in the first place?

This all reminds me a bit of the area 51 fiasco. Some of the stories told were horrific.

...Although the plaintiffs concede Area 51 harbors military secrets that must be protected, Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who represents the plaintiffs and more than two dozen other Area 51 employees who so far haven't joined in the suit, says the government's position is too extreme.

''The government claims that revealing any information about Area 51 would jeopardize American lives,'' he says. ''The only American lives lost so far are those of their own workers.''

...During the 1980s, the men say, classified materials were burned at least once a week in 100-yard-long, 25-foot-wide pits. With security guards standing at the edge, Air Force personnel threw in hazardous chemicals such as methylethylketone, a common cleaning solvent, and other things, such as computers, that produce dioxin when burned. The toxic brew, including drums of hazardous waste trucked in from defense facilities in other states, was ignited with jet fuel and typically burned for eight to 12 hours, the men say. [continued]
http://www.ufomind.com/area51/articles/1996/wsj_960208.html
Wall Street Journal, Thursday, February 8, 1996

Sorry about the link. It was the easiest one to grab.

Anyway, it seems this sort of thing continues and is "justified" by issues of national security.
 
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  • #24
Gokul43201
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how many millions of gallons of water in that lake?
Area = 1670 acres, avg depth = 20ft => volume of water ~ 40 billion liters

Moles of Na dumped into lake = 20,000*1000/(2.2*23) ~ 0.5 million moles

Even assuming NaOH is 100% dissociated in water, this makes the pH only very slightly alkaline.
 
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  • #25
gravenewworld
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LOL that is nothing. Do you know how they used to dispose of cylinders full of 99% HBr, HCl, Cl2, and Br2 back in the old day????? Disposal companies would take them to an open field and shoot them with a gun so that all of those toxic gases would just dissipate into the atmosphere.



Ha the Navy even used to use huge cylinders full of Titanium tetrachloride (nasty stuff) as smoke screens during battle. When the canister hit the water a bunch of titanium oxides and HCl gas produced a smoke screen, but also corroded everything exposed to it.
 
  • #26
Thrice
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I guess those were the years before the EPA & regulations. *shrug*
 
  • #27
Integral
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I once worked for a company learning to cast Aluminum. The boss had some flux, that when added to molten Al evolved Cl gas. The flux then protected the molten Al from oxidization

Solution: Move the molten Al outside. I dropped the pellet and ran upwind.

Cl gas in the wind has a certain fatal beauty.

That was a one time never repeated event. We found that it was not necessary for our process.
 
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  • #28
cshum00
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The question lies on where all that Na came from? How did they get so much Na? Also how can that much of Na be recycled and used again?
 
  • #29
Janus
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Lenore used to feed water into Soap Lake from the north before the irrigation system was built and Lake Lenore was freshened and diluted. Lenore, once as mineralized as the upper layer Soap Lake is today, now is relatively fresh and supports sport fishing.

You, know, I actually swam in Soap Lake once.
 
  • #30
Integral
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The question lies on where all that Na came from? How did they get so much Na? Also how can that much of Na be recycled and used again?

There may well be a deposit of salts containing that 20,000lbs of Na at the foot of those cliffs. Unfortuatly 20,000 lbs is not enough material to justify a recovery effort. A significant portion of the recoved material could well be common table salt.
 
  • #31
mrjeffy321
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A significant portion of the recoved material could well be common table salt.
Where is all that Chloride coming from to form the NaCl?
I would think it would be much more likely for the Na to form NaOH in solution with the lake water. Then, over a long time, the lake water could absorb Carbon Dioxide from the air and slowly neutralize the NaOH by forming Sodium Bicarbonate, which is much less soluble than NaCl and would precipitate out of solution more easily.

The again, you could very well have some soluble Chloride salt in the water already which could easily form a very insoluble Hydroxide salt, thereby leaving the NaCl behind in solution, but making it slightly harder to recover.
 
  • #32
Integral
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Where is all that Chloride coming from to form the NaCl?
I would think it would be much more likely for the Na to form NaOH in solution with the lake water. Then, over a long time, the lake water could absorb Carbon Dioxide from the air and slowly neutralize the NaOH by forming Sodium Bicarbonate, which is much less soluble than NaCl and would precipitate out of solution more easily.

The again, you could very well have some soluble Chloride salt in the water already which could easily form a very insoluble Hydroxide salt, thereby leaving the NaCl behind in solution, but making it slightly harder to recover.

Thank you for a much better answer. :smile:
 
  • #33
Gza
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I like how these old movie reels all seem to have the same narrator :biggrin:
 

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