Is there a fundamental flaw in our understanding of space and conservation laws?

[ttn]

I read your essay- post #101. I have two questions:

1. Do you have professional education in physics?
2. If yes, who was your teacher?

I don't quite see why you are asking this, but...

1. Yes. I have a BS in physics (w/ a philosophy double major) from a top science college, and a PhD in physics from a top-20 university, and I'm a tenured professor of physics at a small college.

2. I've had lots of teachers.

In addition, I am not familiar with “what was for Einstein *the fundamental* problem with orthodox QM, namely the conflict with relativity”. A. Einstein never talks about nonexistent problems; the problem was formulation of consistent theory of measurements.

Einstein makes clear in a few places that for him it is the non-localilty of orthodox QM which is his major issue with it. See, e.g., some of the passages quoted in this paper:

http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/QM/norsen_ajp_73_164_05.pdf

 

[vanesch]

OK, but keep in mind that this "impression that we can "decide" doesn't mean much, especially when dealing with unintuitive experiments like EPR. We have also the impression that we don't exist in a superposition of states, that we live in a local universe, and so on. However, QM forces us to accept that at least some of these impressions are false, so why not drop the "free will" one?

First a note:
I hope you understood that by free will, I understand also "correlations with seemingly unconnected phenomena" which is necessary if we are going to consider superdeterministic systems.

I tried to point out that what we call "free will" is maybe an erroneous impression of "freedom", but has nevertheless a rather precise meaning, in that we seem to be able to set up experiments of which the "freely decided parameters" are "determined" by just any arbitrary phenomenon (samples of songs, photons from the back end of the universe, noise in a warm resistor...). Now, in a superdeterministic setting, of course all these things are determined by the initial conditions, and so, are not really 'freely chosen'.

However, as I tried to point out, about all we know, and even the very suggestion of determinism, has been "found out" by making the assumption that "freely chosen parameters" (in the above sense) are statistically independent of the phenomenon we are trying to study. It is a fundamental hypothesis in all we learned about cause-effect relations, from our childhood experiences (the hot stove burns the finger, it is not the burning finger which heats the stove) to all scientific experiments. If we let this go, then everything we've ever learned was just a big conspiracy, and there is no difference between a superdeterministic universe, and a "bag of events" universe, because we will never be able to find out the real cause-effect relations if we cannot make the above hypothesis of statistical independence of "freely chosen parameters".
Moreover, there would be no reason why things APPEAR to us, most of the time, to have this statistical independence! There is no reason, if we have to accept EPR correlations as being superdeterministic effects (and hence, that there are statistically non-trivial links between the samples of old songs, the photons coming in from the back end of the galaxy, and the movement of charges in a warm resistor), that there shouldn't be OTHER strange correlations all around us. It would be totally incomprehensible that, no matter all these strange correlations that have to pop up whenever they are used in an EPR experiment (and they can be related to ANYTHING a priori), they DON'T pop up when we do the direct correlation (that is, when not using them in an EPR experiment). Once we reach such a level of conspiracy in nature, there is no hope to discover anything !

And because all matter have the same basic components (mainly electrons and quarks) any "phenomenon" you choose as the source of "random" settings brings nothing new to the experiment. It is like trying to "fool" energy conservation by using all kinds of devices (chemical, mechanical, nuclear and so on) and wondering each time about the failure to do so. The explanation is the same. Energy conservation is enforced at the fundamental particle level and no matter how you play with different devices you cannot brake the law.

Yes, but then the question is: why do these strange and long-range correlations between all kinds of events don't show up when we don't use them to do the polarizer settings (I'm not aware of any specific correlations observed between samples of songs, photons from the CMB, noise in resistors and so on whenever these are NOT used as settings in an EPR experiment), and suddenly pop up when they need to, just in order to make the right correlations come out with a pair of photons with which they didn't have anything special to do a priori.

In other words, why would we have this impression of statistical independence of "freely settable parameters" (from which we deduced about all we know about causal relationships in the first place!) if this is in general not true, but would this ONLY show up in some very peculiar settings ? This is simply too much conspiracy to me ; worse, this working hypothesis would undermine everything we knew up to now !

1. I think you overestimate the importance of free choice here. There are branches of science where we are forced in the position of passive observers, like galaxy formation or paleontology.

Yes, but these branches rely on other branches, where causal relationships HAVE been established, and where we make hypotheses of statistical independence of causes with their effects. If the act of digging would make atoms migrate (by "coordinated thermal fluctuations") into configurations of dinosaur bones (hey, creationists never thought of THIS argument ) the whole basis of paleontology would be erroneous.

2. Even in your example I don't see any problem. The causality remains, we still observe that whenever the button is pressed the light is on.

No, we could say that the fact that light goes on makes the button be pressed in this case.

3. The device that sets the detector in an EPR experiment generates an EM field by its own existence. I don't see any good reason to assume that this field has "nothing to do" with the experiment.

That "device" can be a galaxy 2 million light years away, or the decay of a radioactive atom, or the noise in a resistor, or a combination of all that. It is difficult to see how all these things can have a very precise causal link to the emitted pair, while we've never observed individually such a causal link. This is worse than astrology!

 

[Anonym]

I don't quite see why you are asking this

I have impression that the old traditions of the scientific discussion that were established during the centuries somehow lost during last 50 years and are substituted by the American dreams of self-promotion. I am not sure that you comprehend what you wrote above (see quotation).

I consider legitimate when one present his view or his interpretation of POV of somebody else. I do not consider it fair to use A. Einstein name in order to assert just the opposite. If you have different opinion, defend it by your own. In addition, I am not familiar with the experimental results that support your statements. Your description of A. Einstein idea of unification of EM and GR also has nothing to do with the origin. A. Einstein looked for the solution within classical physics and without reference to QM (indeed QT should allow unification of all four fundamental interactions). Maybe attempt to understand his statements literally is also legitimate?

AB paper and the unambiguous confirmation provided by A. Tonomura et al demonstrated that “hidden” variables are present in CED and became transparent in QED. Thus, it seems that D. Bohm looked in the opposite direction. I do not think that A. Einstein understanding of physics depend on J.S. Bell “discovery”. I even don’t know what you mean. If you mean Bell’s inequalities I don’t understand what news about QM they tell us in addition to thousands experiments that demonstrate that non-relativistic limit of QT is adequate and complete. I will understand your statements about nonlocality if you will demonstrate it theoretically in the absence of the time dispersion or experimentally.

Regards, Dany.

 

[tehno]

I don't really understand what you said. Orthodox QM is not a local theory. That's the whole point of EPR. What bothered Einstein was the spooky action at a distance that OQM posited. He hoped to get rid of that by introducing something like the hidden variables I mentioned above. But Bell proved that that won't work -- you can't get rid of the non-locality (and keep the right empirical predictions, *even* by adding hidden variables). So non-locality is a real fact of nature.

Yes. I meant EPR and that QM isn't local theory.
Funny thing to me is that in early days it was created to describe local phenomena that couldn't be described by a classical physics (example: atom ).It overgrew it's inital purpose-->principles and formed equations signalized it could be more than just local.Possibility that the eqs. could describe QM systems with separated particles worried Einstein becouse of the finite speed of interaction propagation ( light velocity).
By the *biggest* hidden variable ,as matter of fact.I consider variable of time.But that's not really hidden variable ,just the one we don't understand enough.I would be interested to hear in what relationship stand Wheeler-Feynman transcription theory that led to QED and Bohmian interpretation of QM?
Bohm introduced so called pilot waves.Right ?

 

[Anonym]

By the *biggest* hidden variable ,as matter of fact, I consider variable of time. But that's not really hidden variable, just the one we don't understand enough.(at all, D.)

That is all point made by the “fathers”.

E. Schrödinger: "Matter stand much the same with another system, the electromagnetic field. Its laws are "relativity personified", a non-relativistic treatment being in general impossible".

Time is the special relativity all about. A. Einstein (5th Solvay) demonstrated that the collapse not only consistent but necessary to maintain relativity. And QT is obviously not complete since the relativistic version still not formulated. With all my respect to cats in general and to the Schrödinger cat in particular, I suggest to read carefully all E. Schrödinger paper, "Die gegenwärtige Situation in der Quantenmechanik", Naturwissenschaften 23: pp.807-812; 823-828; 844-849 (1935), English translation in W@Z. He never mentioned non-locality (the idea so remote from his attitude to the matter that …). In addition, in “The role of wave function in QED” here in PF you may find discussion presented by Hans de Vries (post #43, especially -8- and post #44) which I consider enlighten.

Regards, Dany.

 

[tehno]

Thank you for the references.
Our experience and senses ("What we see..") are still great
obstacles for interpretation of QM. Consider the following:
Classical (non-relativistic) mechanics rely on Newton's law of motion :F=ma.
This equation is an axiom (independent,can't be derived).
Understanding that equation ,for most of the humans,isn't problem.
Interpreting it's consequences isn't too hard also.
The reason is ,most likely,our senses are evolutionary adjusted to everydays
Newtonian world.
Similarily there's is a Shrodinger's equation in QM.
But what our senses can say about it (let alone logical interpretations of its' consequences)?
[Erratum:Of course ,in my previous post I meant W-F transactional -and not "transcription" theory ]

 

[rewebster]

Without a good definition of "TIME", anything is theoretically possible in some theories--EVEN time travel

How many 'time' worlds exist in MWI (or its sub-theories/interpretations/etc.)?

 

[Anonym]

Classical (non-relativistic) mechanics rely on Newton's law of motion :F=ma.This equation is an axiom (independent,can't be derived).

No. Newton's law of motion as well as every law of motion in physics is derivable from the Principle of Least Action. Notice that it has purely wave mechanical nature.

Understanding that equation ,for most of the humans,isn't problem. Interpreting it's consequences isn't too hard also.
The reason is ,most likely,our senses are evolutionary adjusted to everydays
Newtonian world.

I am not sure that it was so 300 years ago. Our intellectual abilities are also evolutionary adjusted. I have no doubt that after 300 years kids will study QFT in high school and will not understand why we had any problems of understanding.

Our everyday classical world also contains the EM and gravitation fields. If you believe that our senses are evolutionary adjusted to everyday world than it is only matter of patience, acquisition of relevant knowledge and time to reach understanding. I do not believe that with quantum world the story will be different. When A.Tonomura presents his pictures, I see the single electron in the specific waveform after it changes due to interaction with the beam splitter. By the way, I consider it the extremely beautiful pictures. I see pictures from the bubble chambers. I consider it the extremely beautiful pictures too. I have no difficulties to understand them and I do not need M. Born for that. I do not feel the size of time (time dispersion) but A. Einstein said that " Raffinert ist der Herr Gott, aber boshaft ist Er nicht".

Regards, Dany.

 

[ueit]

First a note:
I hope you understood that by free will, I understand also "correlations with seemingly unconnected phenomena" which is necessary if we are going to consider superdeterministic systems.

I tried to point out that what we call "free will" is maybe an erroneous impression of "freedom", but has nevertheless a rather precise meaning, in that we seem to be able to set up experiments of which the "freely decided parameters" are "determined" by just any arbitrary phenomenon (samples of songs, photons from the back end of the universe, noise in a warm resistor...). Now, in a superdeterministic setting, of course all these things are determined by the initial conditions, and so, are not really 'freely chosen'.

I understand how you define free will, no problem. I want to add something else to your last statement, which I consider very important. Not only all events, including choices are determined by initial conditions but they are also constrained. In the solar system, for example, one cannot change the orbit of Mercury while keeping all others the same. This is different from the "bag of events" hypothesis where any configuration is possible.

However, as I tried to point out, about all we know, and even the very suggestion of determinism, has been "found out" by making the assumption that "freely chosen parameters" (in the above sense) are statistically independent of the phenomenon we are trying to study.

I disagree.

It is a fundamental hypothesis in all we learned about cause-effect relations, from our childhood experiences (the hot stove burns the finger, it is not the burning finger which heats the stove) to all scientific experiments.

The real cause in a superdeterministic system is the past state of the whole system. It's not the Sun which causes Earth's motion neither is Earth which causes Sun's motion. However, one may assume one of the above and the observations are still valid. The equations describing the solar system evolution do not stand or fall on how one chooses the cause. The only thing that matters is the law of motion and not which causes what. I'd like to remind you of one of your arguments. You said that even if one assumes a flat Earth when building a telescope it doesn't follow that an observation pointing to a round Earth should be rejected.
You press the button and the light is on. The real cause in this case is the past state of the whole system, you, the button, the bulb, etc. This doesn't mean that the observation that the light is on when the button is pressed is false, or that we cannot use the observation in making an electrical network in a building.
I think the problem is similar to that of choosing a frame of reference. In the Newtonian picture, I can postulate that Pluto is THE free agent in our solar system and all other objects just follow its "choices". Then I can calculate Earth's future positions for different such "choices" and guess what? I get the right answer.

Moreover, there would be no reason why things APPEAR to us, most of the time, to have this statistical independence!

Oh, but there is a very good reason. It is true that, according to my hypothesis, every particle "knows" about its detection and is emitted only when the surrounding fields indicate a "favorable" detector. However, for an ordinary assembly of particles the correlations are hidden because we don't know when each of them is emitted. The entangled particles are generated both at the same time, therefore we have a very special case.

Yes, but these branches rely on other branches, where causal relationships HAVE been established, and where we make hypotheses of statistical independence of causes with their effects. If the act of digging would make atoms migrate (by "coordinated thermal fluctuations") into configurations of dinosaur bones (hey, creationists never thought of THIS argument ) the whole basis of paleontology would be erroneous.

The resulting theory would necessary make identical predictions with Darwin's theory It's only a very unnatural reference frame. And everybody knows that the devil put those bones there, to fool us.

No, we could say that the fact that light goes on makes the button be pressed in this case.

Same as above.

I have a question for you about the transactional interpretation. It seems to me that TI is pretty close to my hypothesis, if the advanced wave is not going into the past but in the "normal" way. The delayed choice experiments are dealt with by the superdeterministic character of the universe.

 

[tehno]

No. Newton's law of motion as well as every law of motion in physics is derivable from the Principle of Least Action.

What do you think why Newton's second Law is called a law and axiom in classical mechanics?Why is Principle of Least action called the "principle" -not law or even less axiom, what makes the difference ?? .The main reason isn't just level of complexity .You can find it actually behind one word in the following text:

Newton's second law F = ma states that the instantaneous force F applied to a mass m produces an acceleration a at the same instant. By contrast, the action principle is not localized to a point; rather, it involves integrals over an interval of time and for fields extended region of space. classical action principles, the initial and final states of the system.Say :Given that the particle begins at position x1 at time t1 and ends at position x2 at time t2, the physical trajectory that connects these two endpoints is an extremum of the action integral.
In particular, the fixing of the final state appears to give the action principle a teleological character which has been controversial historically. This apparent teleology is eliminated in the quantum mechanical version of the action principle.

 

[reilly]

Consider an elastic scattering measurement, say electron-proton scattering. Then, once I have measured, say, the electron's momentum, I know immediately what the momentum of the proton will be. In fact, The relationship of entanglement between electron and proton, can be further confirmed by coincidence detection experiments. We can have strong confidence that, neglecting radiation for the moment, if the proton could travel through a pipe after collision, we could do variants of momentum and spin measurements -- as in polarization measurements, and, of course, after similar measurements are made on the electron.

We do this sort of reasoning all the time; we trust our basic conservation laws.But, it seems to me, that we assume such things as rotational invariance is instantaneous, that is that angular momentum is conserved -- which it seems to be.. On the other hand, the universe we perceive is not "instantaneous", but is a historical record -- we only know now locally.

It seems to me that we are dealing with a broader issue than QM; that is, why do we assume that rotational invariance is true? Many experiments show this invariance has a very strong empirical basis. And we have elegant arguments and methods which we use in many branches of physics. But, how far do we know from? Suppose that we could manipulate something the size of the moon, and get it spinning like crazy. How long does it take for an observer a light year away to know about the spinning object? (By means, of course, of very sensative measurements.) The instantaneous version of angular momentum conservation would say: the distant observer should know immediately. That does not seem to happen.

I guess the question is:why exactly can we believe that QM, and CM in my view, gives the 'right" answers to entanglement problems, as they seem to do? My growing sense is that there's something about space we are not getting -- one could argue that info from conservation laws flows to all parts of the universe instantaneously. But, that is not a very satisfying argument.

One can also argue that our assumed structure of space -- isotropic, homogeneous, and so forth -- requires instantaneous propegation of conservation info.

It's crazy making.
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson