What will happen if two fermions, like electrons, come together

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of two fermions, specifically electrons, when they are brought close together, particularly focusing on their quantum states and the implications of the Pauli exclusion principle. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications regarding quantum mechanics and particle interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if two fermions have the same quantum numbers, the probability of finding them close together will be small.
  • Another participant explains that if the fermions are tied to a nucleus, their energy levels will split, causing one to move to a higher energy state when brought close together.
  • A different viewpoint indicates that in scenarios like white dwarfs or neutron stars, there is a limit to how close fermions can be brought due to the Pauli exclusion principle, which establishes a "zone" around each fermion where others cannot enter.
  • One participant elaborates on the mathematical representation of fermions using bra-ket formalism, emphasizing that two fermions cannot occupy the same state and discussing the implications for their wavefunctions.
  • Another participant notes the importance of whether the fermions are identical and mentions the ultraviolet behavior of field theories like QED and QCD in the context of their interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the Pauli exclusion principle and the behavior of fermions in close proximity. There is no consensus on the exact nature of the "zone" around fermions or the minimum distance they can approach each other.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of quantum states and the complexities of quantum field theory interactions, which remain unresolved in the discussion.

touqra
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What will happen if two fermions, like electrons, having the same quantum numbers are brought very close to each other?
 
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If you mean by 'same quantum numbers' what I think you mean, then the propability of finding them close will be small.

P.S.
Quantum objects aren't very easy to manipulate, I think. Especially if you want to keep them in their original state.
 
touqra said:
What will happen if two fermions, like electrons, having the same quantum numbers are brought very close to each other?

It depends. If they are tied to some nucleus, each of their energy levels splits up and one of them (irrelevant which one, they're both the same) will go to higher energy state.

If they are, let's say, free and you try to push them closer (I think something like that happens in white dwarfs or neutron stars) you will reach certain limit above which you cannot bring them any closer due to the pauli exclusion principle. You can imagine (at least that's how I do it) that each fermion establishes a "zone" around himself in which other fermions are not allowed to enter which is not effect of any force, but only consequence of their indistinguishability (hope I spelled this correctly :)).
 
You can imagine (at least that's how I do it) that each fermion establishes a "zone" around himself in which other fermions are not allowed to enter which is not effect of any force,
If I may elaborate on this for the OP...
Take a simple two fermion state:
Using bra-ket formalism,

\mid\psi_1, \psi_2>= \frac{1}{\sqrt2} (\mid\psi_1> \mid\psi_2> - \mid\psi_2> \mid\psi_1> )
we clearly see that we can't have two fermions in the same state ( \psi_1=\psi_2 ).

But, since you (touqra) are interested in finding fermions in space we should use take a product of a coordinate x (1D, for simplicity) with the state (aka wavefunction):

\Psi(x_1, x_2)=\psi(x_1) \psi(x_2) - \psi(x_2) \psi(x_1)

Now, the probability of finding a system in some place is the square of the wavefunction. The probability of finding the two fermions will be decrease as the distance between them decreases, but will only be zero when x_1=x_2

My point is that there doesn't exist a minimum distance between two fermions in the same state below which we will never find them, that is the "zone" that Igor_S mentions isn't clearly defined.
 
Last edited:
It's essential whether the fermions are identical or not. "Bringing very close to each other" usually implies the ultraviolet behavior of the (hopefully) renormalizable field theory which describes their interaction. QED is UV-renormalizable (just like QCD).

Daniel.
 

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