What's the point of having a dress code stricter than business casual?

[random_soldier]

Nowadays a lot of people like to fashion themselves in a way that is less traditional. You might see men wear make up or men and women coloring their hair some color that isn't naturally possible. Since society is so free, even among serious scholars (as I see in my department), what is the point of having a strict dress code?

I imagine one doesn't want someone showing up scantily clad or maybe there is a uniform requirement to represent a certain party or for a certain type of job but there doesn't seem to be much point for specifying such at social events in places such as conferences.

 

[berkeman]

You probably need to define the environments you are asking about more carefully/narrowly.

We have a dress code at work that is there to give employees freedom when they are not interacting with customers, and to be sure that folks know what is expected when you do interact with customers.

I wore shorts and an athletic triathlon t-shirt to work today because I don't have any customer contacts today in my R&D engineering job, and because the outside temperature is in the 95 degree range. If I had customer meetings on my schedule today, I would have dressed business casual.

 

[random_soldier]

You probably need to define the environments you are asking about more carefully/narrowly.

We have a dress code at work that is there to give employees freedom when they are not interacting with customers, and to be sure that folks know what is expected when you do interact with customers.

I wore shorts and an athletic triathlon t-shirt to work today because I don't have any customer contacts today in my R&D engineering job, and because the outside temperature is in the 95 degree range. If I had customer meetings on my schedule today, I would have dressed business casual.

I'm probably thinking about socializing between fellow scholars at conferences. Often they'll specify something such as business casual.

 

[berkeman]

Really? Who specifies that? I haven't been to a conference in a couple of years, but I've never seen that in the terms and conditions of purchasing a pass to the conference and presentations.

Or do you mean that the university that you work for has a dress code when you attend a conference wearing a badge that has their university name on it?

 

[random_soldier]

Really? Who specifies that? I haven't been to a conference in a couple of years, but I've never seen that in the terms and conditions of purchasing a pass to the conference and presentations.

Or do you mean that the university that you work for has a dress code when you attend a conference wearing a badge that has their university name on it?

The conference committee/organizers/etc. The last two I have been to (ANS and the IEEE ICOPS) had dress codes for those attending the conference. Going by your example, it would make sense for the workers to have some sort of uniform but the conference goers even if they are speakers, the logical reason hasn't come up in my head for them to do so.

 

[berkeman]

Interesting! I hadn't seen that, but like I said it's been a couple years since I attended a technical conference. I wonder if others have see this...

 

[random_soldier]

I probably didn't phrase the initial question right. Would it give a better perspective if I said why don't people have to limit/wear specific make up or remove unnatural hair colors, etc., when a dress code is required? I didn't want to put it that way because it seemed insensitive.

 

[berkeman]

Oh, that's different (I think). You mean they won't let you dress like a Kiss band member when attending a Particle Physics symposium? LOL...

 

[random_soldier]

Yeah totally! I'm just saying that it's strange that there are some I have seen having all sorts of face rings while wearing a suit. If things are like that, why bother with a code? At least, as you said, in a particle physics symposium.

 

[russ_watters]

Since society is so free, even among serious scholars (as I see in my department), what is the point of having a strict dress code?

The answer hasn't changed from what it has always been (it's just been de-prioritized): dress to impress.

I imagine one doesn't want someone showing up scantily clad or maybe there is a uniform requirement to represent a certain party or for a certain type of job but there doesn't seem to be much point for specifying such at social events in places such as conferences.

That would depend on the conference, but the organizers of the conference are no different from the owners of a company: they have a reputation to protect/project that depends on the presentation and conduct of the attendees.

Would it give a better perspective if I said why don't people have to limit/wear specific make up or remove unnatural hair colors, etc., when a dress code is required?

That's harder to define and police and except in the case of extremely unnatural makeup/skin color is longer-established as mainstream.

 

[random_soldier]

The answer hasn't changed from what it has always been (it's just been de-prioritized): dress to impress.

Well you have to consider that at one point wearing powdered wigs and men wearing high heels aligned with that goal. Don't know if it was dress code though. Wonder if this just more natural progression. Maybe at one point it will be impressive to come up with nice, unique color for your hair or something of that sort, even if biologically impossible.

That would depend on the conference, but the organizers of the conference are no different from the owners of a company: they have a reputation to protect/project that depends on the presentation and conduct of the attendees.

And that counts as what people usually see as impressive appearance?

That's harder to define and police and except in the case of extremely unnatural makeup/skin color is longer-established as mainstream.

Can I have examples of extreme cases that you are thinking of and what you think would and wouldn't be easy to police?

 

[russ_watters]

Well you have to consider that at one point wearing powdered wigs and men wearing high heels aligned with that goal. Don't know if it was dress code though. Wonder if this just more natural progression. Maybe at one point it will be impressive to come up with nice, unique color for your hair or something of that sort, even if biologically impossible.

Maybe, but I think you will find looking back at historical photos and paintings that the whims of fashion when it comes to semi-formal and formal dress have not been very significant. If you bumped into this guy at the theater tomorrow, would you even notice anything odd about him?:

And that counts as what people usually see as impressive appearance?

Certainly. The more formally people are dressed, the more serious and professional the perception of the conference. Note: I'm in industry, not academia, and this is probably considered more important in industry because there's more sales and job searching going on.

Can I have examples of extreme cases that you are thinking of and what you think would and wouldn't be easy to police?

I'm talking about your examples. It wouldn't be easy to police because it isn't easy to define where, for example, to draw the line on a rule about "unnatural hair color" or makeup. Typically in my experience, they just say "business casual" and then don't actually police it; You'd have to be way outside the norm for someone to say something. I suspect if you showed up in a nice 3-piece suit and bright green hair, no one would complain unless you started mumbling excitedly about Batman.

 

[random_soldier]

Maybe, but I think you will find looking back at historical photos and paintings that the whims of fashion when it comes to semi-formal and formal dress have not been very significant. If you bumped into this guy at the theater tomorrow, would you even notice anything odd about him?:

View attachment 249559

I'm not sure I understand. Given what movie theaters are now of course I would think it is rather strange a fellow would come dressed so formally.

I'm talking about your examples. It wouldn't be easy to police because it isn't easy to define where, for example, to draw the line on a rule about "unnatural hair color" or makeup. Typically in my experience, they just say "business casual" and then don't actually police it; You'd have to be way outside the norm for someone to say something. I suspect if you showed up in a nice 3-piece suit and bright green hair, no one would complain unless you started mumbling excitedly about Batman.

That's true. I could've sworn that at ICOPS one of the goers was dressed like a biker or trucker. Saw him wear the same day in day out and nobody batted an eye. Did seem rather lonely though. Could be because of his dress.

 

[Rive]

I'm just saying that it's strange that there are some I have seen having all sorts of face rings while wearing a suit. If things are like that, why bother with a code? At least, as you said, in a particle physics symposium.

It is kind of a traditional competition to stretch the code while still keeping it: but with having no code, no fun.
Originally it was more like a privilege for women, but men was never really exempted.

Ps.: my humble opinion about face rings and such is, that such attempts are lacking elegance: more like proof of laziness than a winning move. On the other hand an unusual but well picked hair color...

 

[symbolipoint]

Since society is so free, even among serious scholars (as I see in my department), what is the point of having a strict dress code?

The point is to conform to social and cultural standards, and to avoid stimulating disorderly behavior.

 

[symbolipoint]

Oh, that's different (I think). You mean they won't let you dress like a Kiss band member when attending a Particle Physics symposium? LOL...

View attachment 249556

That's an interesting dress-form example. Those guys are shown in their "performance attire", or costume.

 

[symbolipoint]

I'm not sure I understand. Given what movie theaters are now of course I would think it is rather strange a fellow would come dressed so formally.

About the portrait of Abe Lincoln, you might not expect that at a movie theatre but more likely at some classical music performance at a theatre or maybe some play done at a theatre.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not sure I understand. Given what movie theaters are now of course I would think it is rather strange a fellow would come dressed so formally.

"The theater" is a reference to a live show, a la Broadway.

 

[Vanadium 50]

more likely at ...some play done at a theatre.

Maybe not. I heard he had a bad experience at a play at a theatre once.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I've been to many, many conferences and I have never seen a dress code enforced. It is most likely there so if someone is wearing a T-shirt with some message that the organizers would have trouble with: a political statement, a Confederate flag, something risque, etc. they can object on the grounds that it's a T-shirt without getting into the content.

My rule of thumb is to dress in the top half but not the top 10% of the attendees in terms of formality. When speaking, I will shift that upward, and when speaking in a plenary session at a major conference, upward still further. You want to look professional but not to stand out.

 

[berkeman]

Maybe not. I heard he had a bad experience at a play at a theatre once.

Well, but it was only that one time...

 

[Mark44]

Maybe not. I heard he had a bad experience at a play at a theatre once.

Well, but it was only that one time...

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe not. I heard he had a bad experience at a play at a theatre once.

Yes, but not because he wasn't appropriately dressed.

 

[russ_watters]

I've been to many, many conferences and I have never seen a dress code enforced. It is most likely there so if someone is wearing a T-shirt with some message that the organizers would have trouble with: a political statement, a Confederate flag, something risque, etc. they can object on the grounds that it's a T-shirt without getting into the content.

My rule of thumb is to dress in the top half but not the top 10% of the attendees in terms of formality. When speaking, I will shift that upward, and when speaking in a plenary session at a major conference, upward still further. You want to look professional but not to stand out.

This has been my experience/practice as well (industry events). Incidentally, I use similar criteria for speeding.

 

[symbolipoint]

I did not carefully read the full original question and topic title when I made my post #15. Why "business casual" may be insufficient in dressing level, not really about keeping social or crowd order, but maybe better uniformity for visual labeling of some kind. I must let other members give possibly better responses.

 

[Klystron]

When I was managing groups of young engineers at a startup, I was mainly concerned that they wear proper safety equipment. Most of the young techs wore hemmed 'cargo' shorts and a polo or short sleeved shirt given 100+F temperatures outdoors. A delegation came to me with a dress code request. A recent hire, a mathematician from Romania, tried to blend in with his American colleagues and deal with the desert climate by wearing snug short shorts and tight cycling shirts in bright pastel colors.

The lead from the data center delegation wore neat denim shorts below the knee and a loose size XXl dress shirt, the latter indicating his wife's preference for shopping at Kohls and Macy's. The lead programmer, an USAF veteran, wore olive drab cargo shorts hemmed at the knee and a black T-shirt from the previous year's SANS conference. Normally, I would not notice these details except for their odd request

Both groups were upset by the short length of the new member's shorts. They advised me that only females wore shorts that revealed the upper leg (in our culture). While they did not care if he was gay (he was hetero with two children), he should adhere to the unwritten dress code and wear shorts with a minimum 9" inseam. Beneath the knee preferred for serious work.

I dismissed the delegation and spoke to the new worker at our scheduled review meeting. I gently suggested he notice how his co-workers dressed and consider longer garments. The baffled mathematician could not understood why people would not dress as minimally as possible in the heat and that his small family saved money by sharing clothes. Logical. (He also offered to teach cycling to his overweight coworkers to replace the ubiquitous pickup trucks, but that is another story.)

The next week he came to work wearing long sleeved black dress shirts and slacks with black safety shoes exactly like his manager, mitigated by driving his family's bright pink tiny Eco car.

 

[George Jones]

Twenty-five years ago, when I started teaching physics at university as a sessional instructor, I could (within reason) wear whatever I wanted when teaching. On occasion, I wore shorts and a t-shirt. At the same time and university, my friend, who was an engineering sessional instructor, had to abide by the engineering lecturer dress code, which was dress pants, dress shirt, tie. At that time and university, there was a difference for physics and and engineering lecturers.

 

[OCR]

Well you have to consider that at one point wearing powdered wigs and men wearing high heels aligned with that goal.

. . .dress to impress.

And, I must add, this should be done, in a very dedicated and thoughtful manner.

Unless, of course. . . your own sweat smells the best. . . . .

 

[berkeman]

Logical. (He also offered to teach cycling to his overweight coworkers to replace the ubiquitous pickup trucks, but that is another story.)

Love it!

 

[random_soldier]

When I was managing groups of young engineers at a startup, I was mainly concerned that they wear proper safety equipment. Most of the young techs wore hemmed 'cargo' shorts and a polo or short sleeved shirt given 100+F temperatures outdoors. A delegation came to me with a dress code request. A recent hire, a mathematician from Romania, tried to blend in with his American colleagues and deal with the desert climate by wearing snug short shorts and tight cycling shirts in bright pastel colors.

The lead from the data center delegation wore neat denim shorts below the knee and a loose size XXl dress shirt, the latter indicating his wife's preference for shopping at Kohls and Macy's. The lead programmer, an USAF veteran, wore olive drab cargo shorts hemmed at the knee and a black T-shirt from the previous year's SANS conference. Normally, I would not notice these details except for their odd request

Both groups were upset by the short length of the new member's shorts. They advised me that only females wore shorts that revealed the upper leg (in our culture). While they did not care if he was gay (he was hetero with two children), he should adhere to the unwritten dress code and wear shorts with a minimum 9" inseam. Beneath the knee preferred for serious work.

I dismissed the delegation and spoke to the new worker at our scheduled review meeting. I gently suggested he notice how his co-workers dressed and consider longer garments. The baffled mathematician could not understood why people would not dress as minimally as possible in the heat and that his small family saved money by sharing clothes. Logical. (He also offered to teach cycling to his overweight coworkers to replace the ubiquitous pickup trucks, but that is another story.)

The next week he came to work wearing long sleeved black dress shirts and slacks with black safety shoes exactly like his manager, mitigated by driving his family's bright pink tiny Eco car.

Rather inconsiderate that a foreigner would be expected to take note of such a detail, isn't it?

 

[Klystron]

Rather inconsiderate that a foreigner would be expected to take note of such a detail, isn't it?

True. I Had recently moved from a neighboring state (2000) and had never heard this 'code' .

One of the reasons some schools, jobs and professions stress wearing a uniform. Espirt de corp is a by product of uniform clothing and dress codes. The primary reason is for people from disparate backgrounds to accept strangers into the group.

 

[collinsmark]

(I've posted this comic before, but perhaps it's worth a repeat. This applies to different parts of the US.)

(Source: https://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences5/suit)

 

[russ_watters]

(I've posted this comic before, but perhaps it's worth a repeat. This applies to different parts of the US.)

View attachment 249736

View attachment 249737
(Source: https://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences5/suit)

Am from Philadelphia and have clients on the West Coast; can confirm.

 

[russ_watters]

Rather inconsiderate that a foreigner would be expected to take note of such a detail, isn't it?

I'm having trouble parsing this, but maybe you misunderstood what you were reading; by not being too specific, the manager was speaking with tact.

 

[Klystron]

Am from Philadelphia and have clients on the West Coast; can confirm.

From the SF Bay Area. Notice the West Coaster's shoes. The palm tree silhouettes and running shoes scream Southern California. Northern California dudes wear sandals and 'boat shoes'; hiking boots in cold weather or when breaking in a new pair from REI.

On business or government trips to the East Coast I pack a good suit, dress shirts and (gulp) ties. I never understood the latter; cuts off blood supply to brain. Plus dress sandals.