What is the Ultimate Meaninglessness of Life?

[selfAdjoint]

Yes, it seems as if the universe is completely oblivious to pain and questioning, but what if one doesn't want to accept this state of nature?

Well this dilemma is known as cognitive dissonance, and a very common response is to tell onesself a story that reduces the dissonance. You know Aesop's story of the fox and the grapes: after jumping futilely in the hot sun all afternoon to get the grapes dangling out of his reach, the fox tells himself the grapes were probably sour anyway.

This is an example of a story that DOESN'T relieve the dissonance; what kind of dummy sweats all afternoon to get sour grapes? And fails? A better story is Holy Grapes. The fox says to himself, "If such a clever fellow as I was unable to get those grapes they must have been under powerful protection! I'll just bet they were sacred to some god! What a clever fellow I truly am to break off before I profaned those grapes and called down the wrath of the god on myself!

See how it works? And people do it all unconsciously, as psychologists have demonstrated.

 

[alexsok]

selfAdjoint
Thanks m8, didn't know about that ;)

The thing is that no matter how much convincing it takes (and even if one is able to convince himself completely), nature will still remain just that... nature.. and the universe will remain in it's former state (I mean nothing had changed outside of our little planet on a cosmic scale since the universe was created) so this technique can be considered a mitigating mind-exercise.

But think about m8, what it truly means to be dissatisfied with the way the Universe operates and have absolultey no means, even with billion-years advanced technological progress to change any of this?

Even in our day and age, where billion dollars corporations are researching various means of harnessing the "dark matter" or "dark energy" of the cosmos for rocket-propulsion or other purposes, all we do is attempt to use what's already out there. No one can ever know the true nature of anything or change that nature. We can barely change the environment on our little planet (which doesn't come easily mind you) and on a cosmic scale our efforts seem pokey and wasteful... which is very sad for me which is why I created this topic.

 

[selfAdjoint]

So true. We are not really like gods and can never expect to be. I suppose that's a tough line. I wish others would post on this thread to see what the range of attitudes is to this brute fact of life.

 

[alexsok]

Yeah I wish others would also comment on this issue.

Question to you: When you say "we", do you refer to the "we" that is here and now or do you cover all possible bases as the "we" that will always populate the planet (well.. at least for another thousand of years)? In either case, if "we" can never be gods, then how can one expect a single tiny individul like me and you find a meaning to their lives if the entire mankind of today or the one that will develop eons from now is as powerless in changing the status quo?

 

[-Job-]

But think about m8, what it truly means to be dissatisfied with the way the Universe operates and have absolultey no means, even with billion-years advanced technological progress to change any of this?

Any control over perception is as good as control over the universe. As long as you can change one of them... You can walk down a road or force the Earth to slide under your feet, and they're both as good if all you want to do is get somewhere.

 

[octelcogopod]

There is one thing I think you are not understanding here.

The universe didn't PUT you in this position.
You made a CHOICE to feel this way.
You can feel and think ANYTHING, the universe has NO EVIL OR GOOD, it is only NEUTRAL.

You see what I'm saying?
You keep saying that there is some unanswered question "lingering", but that's all in your mind.
You got to free yourself, the only one who can answer that question is you.

 

[Omega_6]

There is one thing I think you are not understanding here.

The universe didn't PUT you in this position.
You made a CHOICE to feel this way.
You can feel and think ANYTHING, the universe has NO EVIL OR GOOD, it is only NEUTRAL.

You see what I'm saying?
You keep saying that there is some unanswered question "lingering", but that's all in your mind.
You got to free yourself, the only one who can answer that question is you.

I think that the fact that this thread exists proves that you can not always control how you feel. I'm pretty sure he didn't make a choice to feel bad. I obviously can think anything, but I can not feel anything at will. No one has accused the universe of being evil or good, people just don't like the situation they are in. What is so wrong with complaining about your situation? Again, what you feel does not change what is really going to happen (If you believe that there is no such thing as reality, then it is impossible to argue with you about anything, but obviously the topic creator believes that his reality exists).

The topic creator does have questions that he can not answer. Of course, he can make up his own answers, but those are not the real answers he is looking for. I personally love your outlook on life, but only to the point that it amuses me. Of course the questions are in his mind, everything we perceive we perceive through our minds. This doesn't make his questions any less real.

 

[octelcogopod]

I think that the fact that this thread exists proves that you can not always control how you feel. I'm pretty sure he didn't make a choice to feel bad. I obviously can think anything, but I can not feel anything at will. No one has accused the universe of being evil or good, people just don't like the situation they are in. What is so wrong with complaining about your situation? Again, what you feel does not change what is really going to happen (If you believe that there is no such thing as reality, then it is impossible to argue with you about anything, but obviously the topic creator believes that his reality exists).

The topic creator does have questions that he can not answer. Of course, he can make up his own answers, but those are not the real answers he is looking for. I personally love your outlook on life, but only to the point that it amuses me. Of course the questions are in his mind, everything we perceive we perceive through our minds. This doesn't make his questions any less real.

What does that even mean? "Real?"

You agree that everything is in his head, yet you say this.
Here's what I'm trying to say:
His situation is created in his mind.
The situation isn't "real", it's as real as any other outlook on life.

If every question is created in his mind, then all the answers are there too.

 

[Omega_6]

What does that even mean? "Real?"

You agree that everything is in his head, yet you say this.
Here's what I'm trying to say:
His situation is created in his mind.
The situation isn't "real", it's as real as any other outlook on life.

If every question is created in his mind, then all the answers are there too.

What I am saying is that he perceives (perceives, it doesn't mean reality actually occurs in his mind) EVERYTHING in his mind. So everything could be said to "be in his mind." So saying that his questions are only "in his mind" really doesn't make them any different than anything else. What I perceive as reality is not up to me, I perceive what happens, and I ask questions about things that I really perceive.

 

[alexsok]

octelcogopod
Here is a tricky question m8. Death. Is it in our my mind as well? Is it incorrect for me to surmise that I might be dead today, tommorow or in 50 years?

I'm scared of death, terrified of the "nothingness" and the "void", but then again, life without death repulses me to so I actively choose to repudiate religion for example because of how I feel.

You're right in that the universe is neutral but as Omega said, some things just plain happen, whether you like it or not. And compounding this with my fear of the inevitable just consolidates my "existential angst" and the feelings of hopelessness.

Man has control of his life, absolutely, in many aspects too, but he doesn't have control of what counts the most.

My position can be summed up the following way: A man is born alone without anything into an unfathomable existence and dies alone without anything and with no answers provided to the most basic (at least in theory) questions.

If I'm wrong and there is a god and afterlife, he will have much more of an explaining to do to me rathen than me to him, the thought of that kinda amuses me:tongue2:

 

[octelcogopod]

First to Omega:
I completely agree.

We perceive what happens, we follow reality.
But that's not my point.

My point is that you, as a conscious observer, can change your outlook on life in however way you want.
I tend to think that a positive attitude, a more or less "I don't care about this universe stuff" attitude is the best.

to alex:

I CHOOSE to not focus my efforts on that which I feel is not important.
If I can do it, so can alexsok.
But he chooses not to, for some reason or another he has aching questions, he feels a hopelessness because he does not want to die nor does he want to live forever, and this whole existence seems very random and futile.
And in the middle of this is him, just a tiny dot in an unfathomable existence.

But here's my point: *drum roll*

It doesn't NEED to matter. These questions, this existence, it doesn't NEED to matter, if you just DON'T CARE.
I realized one day, that what really matters is realizing that yes, this existence is crazy, what the HELL is this universe, why am I here, why does everyone go about their lives as if everything is ok, why doesn't anyone question where they are, who they are, why doesn't anyone DO SOMETHING?

I'll tell you why.
There's a difference between the likes of us, and the likes of them.
Only when you realize the craziness, the severity, and the gravity of the situation, will you realize the funniness, the humor and the general bizareness of it.
Only then, can you truly sit down and think "haha this is nuts, but I'm here, I have emotions, i have thoughts, so I'm just going to enjoy the ride."

 

[Omega_6]

I am just not fond of people saying that another's questions aren't even valid (ESPECIALLY when it comes to philosophy). You can hide under the illusion that you have ultimate control over your life and that you have all the answers, but eventually it is going to hit you that you don't. The only answers you have apply to unimportant matters like the answers to your test.
There are many things that we will face that we have no control over, some bigger than others. You can think what you want, but everyone is going to die, and whatever happens afterward is what really happens (whether nothing happens or something happens). Everybody lives under this fear of death, some just deny that it bothers them (or choose to forget about it), or they use a belief to make death okay. Religion and death are intertwined.
Again, everybody on this planet is on equal footing when it comes to things such as the "meaning" of life and existence as a whole. Flat out saying somebody is wrong in their beliefs or wrong in asking their questions is...wrong. If I were to believe that an invisible, undetectable leprechaun that resides in my pocket will save me from death, there really isn't anything you can do to disprove it. This is why debating religion (even some "new-age" thinking) is impossible. We can, however, discuss events such as our death and ponder how this affects our lives, and what life means if a god exists or a god doesn't exist. But saying that what someone believes life to be is wrong, and therefore nullifying their questions, isn't something that can be discussed rationally.

octelcogopod

I agree that we can choose to just live life, but what I am saying is that it still doesn't really change anything, and therefore the topic creator's questions still remain.

P.S. I don't know If I am coming off sounding angry or anything, but I can assure you that I'm not.:tongue2:

 

[octelcogopod]

By the way, I'm not opposing your views, or alex's views.
I'm trying to make you think in more positive ways.

I stand by my word that yes, the universe, and Earth specifically, is crazy.
People do a lot of things.
They make up religions, they follow what ever they think is important at the time.
Some people do great damage, other people do great good.
You can't really blame humanity, or humans, for doing what they do.

On some level or another, nobody has any choice in anything.
Some people are born, they grow up, they learn to develop a certain attitude and lifestyle, many people never have a choice because they can't see themselves changing, it all comes naturally to them.
So my point is that all the stupid things humanity has done since we came here on earth, is simply just.. nature and humanity figuring itself out.

We have all made mistakes, we all find things we do, that pan out to be futile or incorrect, but what can you do?

I think that instead of lingering and pondering on what has happened, one should rather focus on what one WANTS to happen.

I don't think alex is at the point where nothing matters anymore, where he has no desire left to do anything.
He said himself he wasn't, so what imo needs to happen is to focus efforts elsewhere.

I'm NOT giving medical advice here, this is part of my philosophy, be cheerful, happy, and grateful for your existence.
That is my motto.
There's really nothing I can say or do, is there?

 

[alexsok]

octelcogopod
This is a really healthy perspective on life, and one that I would want to espouse some day (i seem to recall that in my more juvenile days I used to be exactly like that. blissful and uncaring.)

But, as Omega said, the questions are there regardless of how we choose to treat the subject matter (and will stay there long after the dust settles on our tombs).

So we should come to a consensus guys, at least partially. I do agree that in most cases ignorance is bliss and living life in a laid-back and trouble-free (at least in your mind) fashion is the way to go, optimism rocks and it will surely make you less of a boring person and will get you laid more for sure and yadda yadaa yadda...

But, since this is a forum of philosophy, let us focus on dissecting every question and trying to understand it's essence and it's ramifications with the obvious presupposition that we cannot know anything or come anywhere near a final resolution.

Agreed? :)

 

[octelcogopod]

Hehe ok.
I see now where you are coming from.

 

[alexsok]

Hehe good.
Trust me, when they screen the second episode of Prison Break soon, i'll forget about this existential upheaval, at least for a while, like a long overdue respite ;)

 

[octelcogopod]

Hehe ;)

Prison Break is good!

Anyway, don't want to go off topic.

 

[alexsok]

Guys check this out.
http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1151836295/What_We_Are

 

[Manaf]

well.. it is reasonable question and has been asked from the start of the time when humans found themselves in this universe.

For me, I think the answer is simple. If we want to know why we are created and for what, simply we should ask the creator about that.
Now, in order to access the creator, we should investigate the different pathways toward him and find the correct one, the one which proves itself and provides evidence of the truth of every point it states, even the question of the existence of Creator in the first place.
As I see when many people refer to religion, they think of it as "faith" without any evidence just to keep the hopes of humans alive in this hopeless world. Well, that's I think because either they didn't read about religion ,or read or believe in one that is not satisfactory and evidence-based. Just like we don't accept the scientific theories unless they are supported with enough evidence, I think every person should judge the truth of religion in just the same way, but with differences in the form of evidence,logical not empirical. When you know the true one, you can see what that tells you about the goal of life. Some missionary people just get surprised when asked about logical evidence, like the logical evidence of trinity. I think the religion has to prove itself for people in order for them to swallow it.
I liked what this writer in this article said about the goal of life:
http://66.113.138.253/books/other-lang/goal-of-life/01.html

thanks.

 

[Kid_Electro]

"Can Man Live Without God?" -Ravi Zacharias

that book changed my life

 

[Omega_6]

"Can Man Live Without God?" -Ravi Zacharias

that book changed my life

Please share how...and elaborate on the content of the book.

 

[Kid_Electro]

Please share how...and elaborate on the content of the book.

It is written by a noted apologist and philosopher. It explores how the reality of God's existence or lack thereof matters significantly in how we live our everyday lives. How we answer the question of God shapes the rest of our beliefs, for example perception of truth, morality etc...It does not deal a theoretical level of philosophy. More at a existential level attempting to reflect on the pains, sufferings, and meaning(s) of life.

It changed my life,by showing me many things that I did not know about Christianity,atheism and existentialists like Camus, Sartre etc.. and soon after I became a Christian.

 

[Omega_6]

Interesting. I have always been fascinated with books on religion and the holy books. There was one book I read (I don't remember what it was called) that was written by a rabbi who took an open view on religion. None of these books caused me to become a christian, however. When I was a kid my parents always took me to church, but when I was finally old enough (and confident enough), I stopped going. I guess you could say that I was never really a christian at all, even though I've been exposed to a lot of christianity. I would use the term agnostic to describe myself.
It is always nice to hear from the point of view of a non-fanatical religious person. What do you think about these questions? What actually made you become a christian? There has to be something in this book that really got to you.

 

[thethinker1]

Another Reply to alexok post #1:
Well, I have been asking myself similar questions. I have asked if this reality is really a trick by God. It doesn't make sense. I mean we don't know where we came from (how humanity got here) and then we have to suffer and die at the end of it, not knowing where we are going. I have started to ask if this is a joke. I at first took joy in at least knowing that others are here with me, but I don't even know that for sure since this could be God fooling my senses. I appreciate your opinions.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

"I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dogonnit, people like me. This has been daily affirmations with Stewart Smalley" - Al Franken

 

[TuviaDaCat]

Interesting. I have always been fascinated with books on religion and the holy books. There was one book I read (I don't remember what it was called) that was written by a rabbi who took an open view on religion. None of these books caused me to become a christian, however. When I was a kid my parents always took me to church, but when I was finally old enough (and confident enough), I stopped going. I guess you could say that I was never really a christian at all, even though I've been exposed to a lot of christianity. I would use the term agnostic to describe myself.
It is always nice to hear from the point of view of a non-fanatical religious person. What do you think about these questions? What actually made you become a christian? There has to be something in this book that really got to you.

might that rabbi be Yeshayahu Leibowitz?

 

[O. Lismahago]

The philosopher said that the purpose of life was to search for the truth. The poet said that the purpose of life was to live. The preacher said that this life was to prepare one for the next life. And the mortician said that the purpose of life, in the end, was to keep him in business.

 

[fedorfan]

I don't think there is a purpose of life. I don't think there is a point in figuring out how the universe works either, because the big bang(or whatever created everything) couldve happened an endless # of different ways and the universe couldve turned out an endless # of different ways and the laws that we know could be totally wrong and there's just no point to anything. I am not depressed, just stating the truth.

 

[Pythagorean]

each person chooses their own purpose in life if their instincts haven't already.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't think there is a purpose of life.

Since it is a matter of choice, why not choose the alternative belief? If you're wrong you'll never know. You win either way.

...tis a logical trap that is simple to escape.

 

[fedorfan]

I don't know, but I just think its all pointless. I have a fairly happy life, I love it. But I don't see a point in it all. Not in global view, but universal view. I always wanted to become an engineer, that's my global point, but universal view, nah, no point there. There could be an endless # of different universes out there yet we`re stuck here learning about so called `laws`. But yeah, you basically do make your own point of life. Ill be back after class.

 

[fedorfan]

What, is this thread done? I was hoping it wasnt.

 

[selfAdjoint]

What, is this thread done? I was hoping it wasnt.

What's to discuss? You say life seems meaningless, someone else says it isn't. So what?

 

[bchmtnedisto]

Many human beings have pondered their existence.For you to do that alex, reaffirms that you are going down the path of many before you.It is healthy to ask, and much more satisfying to finally reach your destination.

Below is an essay regarding your very question that i hope helps you.
remember in my opinion the answer you are lookin for is this:"The Circle of Life."

I believe you asked your question out of a deeper want than "why am i here."

my philosophy is this: Simplify.

no one said it much better in my opinion than Henry David Thoreau:

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined! As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler, solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness."
`Henry David Thoreau


here's king soloman's answer to your very question.

Vanity.

THE SEARCH FOR MEANING
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3806.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
here's another interesting point:

think about this, some of the light we're seeing in our solar system is from billions of years ago.


http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Comets/DeepImpact.html

heres a clip At 83 million miles from Earth, Comet Tempel 1 was near the Sun, but still 100 times too dim to be seen with the naked eye on Earth. However, the cone-shaped plume of debris sprayed into space as the impactor crashed into it made the comet more visible from Earth with small telescopes. It became six times brighter as seen on Earth in the moments after the crash.

 

[artrocket]

Hell i went from being depressed to being normal to being depressed, but one thing keeps bugging me... whatever i do, there is no answer to that question!

er, have you tried evolving your Consciousness?

think about this, some of the light we're seeing in our solar system is from billions of years ago.

I don't believe in this. there is a more accurate denominator in this space-time dimension other than just the speed of light. I once read about a researcher, after a solar eclipse in which he was able to measure the exact moment the corona appeared faster when measured at ELF (extremely low frequency) thru a gravity unit than when measured at lightspeed.