What's wrong in Israel

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damgo

Main Question or Discussion Point

[SOLVED] What's wrong in Israel...

The role of the far right in Israel came up in an earlier thread, and I just saw this related bit in the news -- I think it's fairly illustrative.

The Israeli Tourism Minister, Benny Elon, is in Washington this week opposing the roadmap. His preferred plan is for Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza Strip and "transfer" the Palestinians to Jordan. "Transfer" is the far right's preferred euphemism for ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians via forcible expulsion, otherwise known as "genocide."

Now, this is not Sharon's position; it is rather a deliberate attempt to undermine it. And no one in the upper echelons of the Bush administration is giving Elon the time of day. But the point is, despite the admirable fact that the Israeli government is not letting these wackos dictate major policy, there are a significant number of them in Israel, with a bunch of Knesset seats and even Cabinet-level positions. While they don't get their say on serious issues, they do wield disproportionate influence on less visible ones, like settlement funding for example, which can have a significant effect over the long run.

I'm not sure what my point is exactly, I suppose I just think these are important things for those who are quick to blame one "side" or the other for a complex conflict to think about.

This is a really good background article, below.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=289375&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=289389&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=42869
 

Answers and Replies

Zero
Let's not forget, either, the growing number of Israelis who are pro-Palestine. It IS a complex issue.
 
drag
Science Advisor
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Originally posted by damgo
But the point is, despite the admirable fact
that the Israeli government is not letting
these wackos dictate major policy, there are
a significant number of them in Israel, with
a bunch of Knesset seats and even Cabinet-level
positions. While they don't get their say on
serious issues, they do wield disproportionate
influence on less visible ones, like settlement
funding for example, which can have a significant
effect over the long run.
Hate is rarely one sided. What you discribe
is simply the price of democracy.

Live long and prosper.
 
N_Quire
If the Palestinians were prepared to accept a scrap of desert in Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, it would make everybody's life easier (except their own). Remember, the zionists were offered a bit of Uganda back in the day before they returned to Palestine. If they had accepted the Uganda deal, history would be very different.

Zionists to Uganda
 
Zero
Originally posted by N_Quire
If the Palestinians were prepared to accept a scrap of desert in Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, it would make everybody's life easier (except their own). Remember, the zionists were offered a bit of Uganda back in the day before they returned to Palestine. If they had accepted the Uganda deal, history would be very different.

Zionists to Uganda
So, basically, if Palestinians were willing to settle for having next to nothing, and Israel had to sacrifice nothing, there would be peace tomorrow? I can't imagine why they haven't jumped on teh deal!!
 
N_Quire
It's a standard zionist argument, ie let the Arabs give the Palestinians a scrap of land they can call their homeland. Trouble is, the real Palestinian homeland and the jewish one are the same place. Israel must compromise or we'll get nowhere.
 
Zero
Originally posted by N_Quire
It's a standard zionist argument, ie let the Arabs give the Palestinians a scrap of land they can call their homeland. Trouble is, the real Palestinian homeland and the jewish one are the same place. Israel must compromise or we'll get nowhere.
When both groups have a history in the area that dates back thousands of years, the idea of who was there first seems a bit silly, don't you think?
 
N_Quire
Ah but, we are forgetting the zionist trump card: they are god's chosen people in god's chosen location and, in the zionists' own words, the Palestinians are vermin and worthless scum. If you have the big bearded guy in the sky on your side, you can do anything you want.
 
Zero
Originally posted by N_Quire
Ah but, we are forgetting the zionist trump card: they are god's chosen people in god's chosen location and, in the zionists' own words, the Palestinians are vermin and worthless scum. If you have the big bearded guy in the sky on your side, you can do anything you want.
SHHHHH!!! We're not supposed to talk about how the existance of Israel is supported by the presumed religious and racial superiority of Jewish people!!
 
LURCH
Science Advisor
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damgo
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gendef.htm [Broken]
 
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drag
Science Advisor
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Greetings !
Originally posted by damgo
I'm not sure what my point is exactly, I suppose
I just think these are important things for those
who are quick to blame one "side" or the other for
a complex conflict to think about.
There is nothing to think about. The
Palestinians are the side to blame for
the conflict and that is it. If the
Palestinians stopped fighting there would
be no conflict and they'd have a good
country many years old by now. All that
knocking your forhead on the floor stuff
simply ain't helping. :wink:
Originally posted by Zero
SHHHHH!!! We're not supposed to talk about
how the existance of Israel is supported by
the presumed religious and racial superiority
of Jewish people!!
Yep. In my attempt, for very clear reasons,
to prevent you from being mentor of the
politics forum I reread the PF guidelines
again. The PF guidelines basicly say that
a member can talk whatever BS and crap he
wants as long as he's not directing it
at a particular other member. So, statements
like: "Let's just kill all those damn Muslims !"
are perfectly O.K. here.
So, why indeed should I try and be so
civilized while others are not ?

Live long and prosper.
 
Zero
Re: Re: What's wrong in Israel...

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

There is nothing to think about. The
Palestinians are the side to blame for
the conflict and that is it. If the
Palestinians stopped fighting there would
be no conflict and they'd have a good
country many years old by now. All that
knocking your forhead on the floor stuff
simply ain't helping. :wink:

Yep. In my attempt, for very clear reasons,
to prevent you from being mentor of the
politics forum I reread the PF guidelines
again. The PF guidelines basicly say that
a member can talk whatever BS and crap he
wants as long as he's not directing it
at a particular other member. So, statements
like: "Let's just kill all those damn Muslims !"
are perfectly O.K. here.
So, why indeed should I try and be so
civilized while others are not ?

Live long and prosper.
If the Palestinians stopped fighting, the Israelis would treatthem EXACTLY the way Jews have been treated down through history: kill them, kick them off their land, etc.


You should try reading my posts without your bias-glasses. One of the common suports for the existance of Israel comes from religious texts...and also from the 'chosen people' idea contained in those texts. This is a fact, or do you disagree?
 
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damgo
I'm assuming the floor comment was just a tasteless but honest attempt at humor and letting it go. :|

Maybe there'd be a peace then, yeah. Or maybe, depending on the details, political expediency would let Elon and friends run the show:
"It's clear that Islam is on the way to disappearing," Elon asserts with certainty. "What we are now seeing across the Muslim world is not a powerful surge of faith but the dying embers of Islam. How will it disappear? Very simply. Within a few years a Christian crusade against Islam will be launched, which will be the major event of this millennium. Obviously, we will be up against quite a large problem when only the two great religions of Judaism and Christianity remain, but that's still a long way off...

Just as Ashkelon was once Majdal, Ramallah will cease to be Ramallah. It will become Ramat El [`height of God'].
I have no doubt that within a few years the refugee camps will no longer be here. The whole people of Israel will return to the Land of Israel."
Wouldn't you just love to live in this guy's world?
 
drag
Science Advisor
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Re: Re: Re: What's wrong in Israel...

Greetings !
Originally posted by Zero
If the Palestinians stopped fighting,
the Israelis would treatthem EXACTLY
the way Jews have been treated down
through history: kill them, kick them
off their land, etc.
Yes, that makes sense, currently palestinian
terrorists are successfully preventing the
most powerful military force in the middle
east from doing that. Makes sense. :wink:
Get a grip man !

Live long and prosper.
 
russ_watters
Mentor
19,016
5,168
Re: Re: Re: What's wrong in Israel...

Originally posted by Zero
If the Palestinians stopped fighting, the Israelis would treatthem EXACTLY the way Jews have been treated down through history: kill them, kick them off their land, etc.
What precisely is preventing the Israelis from doing that now? If they wanted to, they could accomplish all that in about a week.
 
damgo
Re: Re: Re: Re: What's wrong in Israel...

Originally posted by russ_watters
What precisely is preventing the Israelis from doing that now? If they wanted to, they could accomplish all that in about a week.
Sanity. The Israeli left. Massive international pressure. There are Israelis who want to do those things, but generally they are not humored.
 
Zero
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15868 [Broken]


At 12:30 this afternoon, more than 20 Israeli military vehicles drew up outside the offices of the International Solidarity Movement in Beit Sahour in the West Bank. Dozens of border guards, soldiers, and intelligence officers poured out of these vehicles and raided those offices. They took computers, discs, papers, every piece of data they could lay their hands on...

In less than two years of ISM’s presence here, the movement has welcomed over 1,000 observers from all over the world, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, and elsewhere. Almost 20 percent of the volunteers have been Jewish. The average age is over 30 — many are over 50, and there have even been volunteers in their 70s. They come from all walks of life to support justice. Israelis, too, have worked with ISM and have faced the same levels of violence from soldiers and settlers. It is this disparate collection of concerned individuals who have caused such consternation in the corridors of power in Tel Aviv...



Daily news confirms the suspicion that Israeli authorities want no more foreign witnesses to their actions in occupied Palestine. On Thursday a new policy went into effect that all foreigners entering the Gaza Strip must sign a waiver to absolve the Israeli army of any responsibility should they be killed or wounded while there, in effect giving the Israeli soldiers permission to shoot them. Three foreigners have been killed or critically injured by the Israeli army in the last two months.
Nothing wrong with Israel...
 
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LogicalAtheist
By wrong I'm going to define it for my post as what's "anti-humanitarian and against humanitarian progress"

What's wrong then is that the majority of people their are applying mythological concepts into reality. This cannot be done.

A mythology is a story or multiple stories that exist in their own system. You cannot bring mythology and apply it AT ALL to reality.

This is the largest current error of the human species. I would love to see the day when this, after thousands of years, is overcome.
 
Zero
Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
By wrong I'm going to define it for my post as what's "anti-humanitarian and against humanitarian progress"

What's wrong then is that the majority of people their are applying mythological concepts into reality. This cannot be done.

A mythology is a story or multiple stories that exist in their own system. You cannot bring mythology and apply it AT ALL to reality.

This is the largest current error of the human species. I would love to see the day when this, after thousands of years, is overcome.
I would edit that to say "What's wrong then is that the majority of people their are applying mythological concepts into reality. This cannot be done sucessfully"

It is hard to deal with any group whose existance is so wrapped up in nonsense like 'holy' lands, and a mythological 'chosen' status.
 
LogicalAtheist
Yes. What I meant by cannot be done is that it can't be done and have any humanitrian outcome. Only anti-humanitrian.

Sometimes i think to myself how much I hate that I had to live during a time when religious mythology was still practiced.

I feel like, on a larger human scale, I'm living in the dark ages.

I suppose that in perhaps the years of 4000's or maybe much later like 7000's humans will look back at the oh, say 10000 year time period when religion reigned powerful and think of themselves as we think of people living in anciet egyptian times.

Simple minded, practicing very strange things and devoting so much energy to such obviously nonexistant concepts.

I say to atheists living in 2003, poor us. We "deserve" to live in the future. Let's give eachother a cyber hug. :smile:
 
Zero
Well, it is a shame that people are using ancient grudges based on superstition to promote hate...on both sides.
 
drag
Science Advisor
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Greetings !

Zero, you're the MOST biased person I've ever
seen after the really propoganda filled
palestinians themselves perhaps.

What you quote above is what happenned after
these people helped the two British arab
Muslims penetrate into Israel and commit a
suicide attack. But, I suppose you just forgot
to mention that part...

Further more, these organizations and "peace"
activists are well known for their often really
rediculous propoganda attempts and the occasional
abstruction of military operations and even
cooporation with local terrorist organizations.

And if that's the way they conduct their
"peace" actions then damn right they should
be thrown out ! Just like foreigh citizens are
thrown out of any country when they act against it.

Live long and prosper.
 

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