When is Assisted Suicide Justified?

[alexsok]

I was wondering when is suicide justified? When one loses his meaning of life? sure, he could find another one and then another one and so on, but what if nothing works for him no more, would that be enough to justify him ending his life?

Another scenario is when someone found his "true life", his calling in life, but doesn't get love in return, or when the person he lived with all his life suddenly packs up and leaves him - he can't survive without that person, so he ends his life - any justifications?

Obviously, the euthanasia issue is also controversial.. and perhaps something that most people would probably agree with. When a person is under agonizing pain that even thinking hurts his whole body, ending it all would sound like a pretty decent choice for him (if he is suffering from a malignant cancer, or other deadly disease).

Other cases could be extreme poverty, living on the streets, lack of goals and/or love in life, lack of any worthy shots at earning money to support oneself (either from lack of education/qualifications or other reasons), sudden bankruptcy (and thus, change of social status), cases of irrepairable physical damage (confined to a wheel chair), imprisonment, etc.

So, overall, in what cases would you justify suicide or if nothing else, give it a contemplative whirl just for the sake of contributing to the topic even if you're against the practical realization of any such morbid acts?

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Losing meaning to life is no reason to end it. Having no meaning to life is neutral, having purpose in life in positive. And personally I think there IS no negative in this situation. There is no "less then no meaning to life", which is why I think suicide is bull**** and why it IS never justified (No, the neutral stance is not a reason, because your death will be of no benefit). And I myself would never give justice to it EVER.

Despite the fact I would never give it justice to suicide, I would understand if someone commited suicide(or perhaps euthanasia) if he/she had no arms and legs and couldn't move or do anything and he/she was in perminant pain (maybe in their brain somewhere so they can't get pain killers for it) and all his/her friends died horribly infront of his/her own eyes. Then yeh, I would understand the suicide. But would that justify it? No way.

Do I believe in the sanctity of life? Hell no but just because life isn't sanct doesn't justify any form of suicide, just like belief in the sanctity of life doesn't make suicide wrong.

 

[octelcogopod]

My opinion is that any reason to commit suicide automatically justifies it.
In fact, a person will never need to justify any of his actions that doesn't involve others.

Even though a persons suicide may affect other people are him, it's still his choice as a free human being.
I'm not sure what you mean by justification in this context, because it seems to me no suicide needs justification.

Also gelsamel I disagree with you strongly, there are plenty of negatives in life, and imo zero neutral ones.

 

[star.torturer]

i believe that anyone in great pain has the right to suicied

but people that kill themselves because of crime i don't agree with, because then they are just doing it to escape justice.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Of course suicide doesn't NEED justification. Nothing ever needs justification. Just because something isn't justified isn't going to stop someone doing it. The OP just ask what does.

And while there are negatives in life, like being hurt etc. I mean there is no negative stance on whether your life has meaning or not. There is only neutral and positive (in response to OPs reason of losing meaning).

And star.torturer as well, everyone has the right to suicide. (unless you lived like 50 years ago in england when it was illegal! Ironic. Imagine being executed for repeated suicide attempts! xD) But what does justify it? Nothing. Does it need justification? Hell no. But that isn't going to stop me from labeling anyone who commits suicide as an emo bastard >:D.

I have to say I'm biased though. I have never been depressed and doubt I ever will. I wouldn't be supprised if I am the person who cares least about anything in the world. I seriously don't care about image, what other people think, hell hardly even what I myself think. If something happens, oh well, it's not like I can change it at all. I've never had any bad thoughts about myself, or thoughts or suicide or self-degredation (physical or otherwise). When I think about it more I guess I'm just callous and apathetic. Oh well what can you do ;).

 

[alexsok]

star.torturer
What do you consider as "great pain" - is it the inability to move, use one's hands/legs/eyes/etc or is it mental pain from the lose of a loved one or perhaps unrequited love?

 

[star.torturer]

Physical and Mental pain qualifies

 

[DaveC426913]

When we talk about whether suicide is "justified", we have to take into account whether the victim's plight is reversible. The trouble is that, often victims think nothing can be done to change their situation, when in fact, there are things that can be done. It is a matter of finding the right kind of help.

And for this reason, we strongly discourage ANY form of suicide; the victims are the ones LEAST qualified to make a judgement about whether or not their plight can be mitigated.

 

[daveb]

It also depends on whether you ask a moral relativist or moral absolutist, and even if an absolutist, the foundational principles of their absolutist moral philosophy.

 

[Reshma]

star.torturer
What do you consider as "great pain" - is it the inability to move, use one's hands/legs/eyes/etc or is it mental pain from the lose of a loved one or perhaps unrequited love?

Ending one's life for being spurned by a lover makes no sense to me. This would probably stem up if the person has extremely low self-esteem and does not have any love or value for his own life (which can be basically applied for most suicide cases). The reasons could be traced back to his/her childhood.

 

[neurocomp2003]

[0] if your life is meaningless to family/friends than i think it is justified...that is if no one "close" to you really cares about you...i'm glad I have a loving family. Otherwise I probably would have ended it years ago.
[1] if you've spent many years hoping that life would get better but it doesn't change no matter what you have tried then I think it is justified.

There is nothing to fear of death, there is only the fear of hurting others.
Only an individual and perhaps those who have journeyed to the same point and have comeback know the mental or physically pain.

 

[Mickey]

It's never justified.

Assisted suicide, on the other hand, is not suicide, because it's a decision to end a life that involves two or more people instead of one. Assisted suicide is not an entirely personal decision, but suicide is. It may be justified in situations with scarce resources, where there is an objectively shared realization that the death of one may prevent the death of others. As for ending pain? Ridiculous. Better to spend time on improving methods of reducing pain, which would help the next person to come along into a similar situation.

Although, I suppose there is reason to spare a person from the feeling of having body parts fail one by one. It could seem beyond mere physical pain, to a kind of terrifying inner fear and trembling, a humiliating loss of self.

But, then, I would personally find it more humiliating to admit that I could not face reality. The reality of death is not something I want to escape. It's something I'd rather prevent.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

I think daveb and octelcogopod have found the rub of the topic. They're asking the right kinds of questions (without actually phrasing them as such). Obviously, we dislike the idea of death, especially when someone seeks it out. Seems we have to work out such issues to do justice to this topic:tongue2: Does accepting suicide as a possible course of action change us?

If you're the last human on Earth, are you justified in taking your life? Does your answer depend on your duty to something else (the human species, whether or not others will miss you, your potential life)?

And really quickly, has anyone seen "Last Night?" Is suicide a different kind of action in this context? (The world is ending in this movie about how people spend their last night on Earth).

 

[Mickey]

I haven't seen the movie, Swerve, but I don't think suicide is justified, even if you're the last person on Earth, for this reason that it is simply superfluous. Life will eventually end anyways, no matter what anyone does. Embracing life is a twisted form of suicide already, since life seems programmed to end at some point.

So the decision to end one's life through suicide is not actually a decision to end life (since that is ultimately not up to us) but a decision to waste life.

Wasting life means throwing away future possibilities that one cannot predict. One may be the last human on Earth, but not the last intelligent life form. Perhaps the machines running at SETI will pick up a signal while the last man on Earth is about to jump off a cliff. Would he want to miss that chance?

 

[Reshma]

I haven't seen the movie, Swerve, but I don't think suicide is justified, even if you're the last person on Earth, for this reason that it is simply superfluous. Life will eventually end anyways, no matter what anyone does. Embracing life is a twisted form of suicide already, since life seems programmed to end at some point.

So the decision to end one's life through suicide is not actually a decision to end life (since that is ultimately not up to us) but a decision to waste life.

Wasting life means throwing away future possibilities that one cannot predict. One may be the last human on Earth, but not the last intelligent life form. Perhaps the machines running at SETI will pick up a signal while the last man on Earth is about to jump off a cliff. Would he want to miss that chance?

Wow, I like your optimism.

 

[neurocomp2003]

MICKEY: what happens,by some freak of nature, that you live 1000 years alone in the dark? Wouldn't it have been better to end it in the past whne everone else had died?

 

[paigetheoracle]

I don't know if justified is the right word - it's like murder, it may be more proper to say it's understandable.

Talking on a personal level my mother did commit suicide and my partner lost a brother to it as well. It always has to be the personal choice of the person doing it as it affects them firstly and foremost. To say it is justifiable brings it into the area of law and the right of others to judge the situation.

I've been depressed enough to contemplate it too but despite the emotional pain, I never did it as you can see. Physically I've suffered from migraines for at least fifteen years, getting two attacks a month during certain spates of it but funnily enough I didn't feel suicidal, mainly because the state of the disease left me incapable of anything much at all with regards to thought or action but then, looking at it, could it be this was a form of death anyway?

Talking about it on a moral level, you could call it cowardice because it is backing out of life. Personally I see it as refusing to take up a challenge life is offering you but as I say it boils down to personal choice on this issue. Somebody said in a post on another forum, that the only true emotion was anxiety as it was a question of being on the cusp of doing/not doing something and therefore was something we all shared (Hypography site, philosophy and humanities forum - actual thread I can't remember).

 

[Mickey]

MICKEY: what happens,by some freak of nature, that you live 1000 years alone in the dark? Wouldn't it have been better to end it in the past whne everone else had died?

Why should being alone in the dark for 1000 years mean that everyone else has died? You're alone in the dark, so how would you know?

I think I grasp the epistemological nature of your question. We could ask:

To what extent can a person know that she is doomed, without the threat of a soon death?

Those who would seek justification for suicide would assume that extremely high levels of knowledge about their own doom, without the threat of a soon death, are possible. They look for knowledge that things cannot be improved and circumstances will not change favorably. Those who seek justification for suicide seek a position of omniscience.

One would think that omniscience would solve more problems than it would create, but it's not entirely out of the question. Perhaps God justifiably committed suicide.

 

[neurocomp2003]

"Those who seek justification for suicide seek a position of omniscience."
Or they could have seen the lowest of the lows from an early age. And have seen life not improve no matter what they attempt to do, and then have come to realize the qualities they were missing to achieve a certain satisfactory state of life were never routed as a kid, and then must come to the decision of whether it is worth it in attempting to achieve that behavioural state.

 

[Mickey]

Or they could have seen the lowest of the lows from an early age.

There's that word, "lowest." How do you know what the absolute endpoint of low is? To declare that one has had the lowest of the lows has such a pseudo-omniscient finality to it, don't you think?

And have seen life not improve no matter what they attempt to do and then have come to realize the qualities they were missing to achieve a certain satisfactory state of life were never routed as a kid, and then must come to the decision of whether it is worth it in attempting to achieve that behavioural state.

"A certain satisfactory state of life" wouldn't be worth it?

If not, then maybe that makes sense after all. Behaviors aren't states. They're dynamic phenomena. Behavior stretches across time, modifying everything that contacts it, including one's own mind and character.

 

[neurocomp2003]

dynamical phenomena are sequences of states.

 

[Mickey]

The most intelligent people contemplate suicide, so the problem must be great. I mean if there is no love of life somehow, our logical course of reasoning veers towards suicide. I understand those who contemplate it. As to whether they are justified or not, it is hard to comment.

The contemplation of suicide may be justified, but not the act. I tend to agree with Camus, actually, that the only serious philosophical question is that of suicide. It's the lynchpin that gives importance to every other philosophical question.

I think it is only natural for thinking persons who are born into the captivity of authoritarian artificial environments, like schools or, dare I say it, homes. This kind of highly controlled, socially manipulative view we had toward children in the 20th century was not the way it always was.

I suppose we do not have the choice to be born, but we do have the choice to die. If certain people choose death as an option, as sorry as I feel that they choose to end their lives, it is hard to make a judgment on their choice.

For me, the value of liberty is more than the value of life. Liberty is its own life, and without liberty, there really is no life worth living. People who contemplate suicide do so, I think, because they have lost a sense of liberty, preventing them from loving life.

But, you can't actually lose liberty entirely. You can still fight. And why not? Isn't it much better to die fighting for what you want, than throw away all your chances at ever having it?

Because of the value I place on liberty, I am obligated to respect the liberty of people who choose to commit suicide (except, of course, when they infringe upon the liberty of others, like in the case of terrorists). I am not omniscient, so I do not know if such people had actually lost so much liberty, that the only bit they had left was for the suicidal act. In other words, perhaps there is a special case where one does not have the liberty to fight, but remains alive in a zombie-ish sort of way.

I can easily imagine such a terrifying case, but only through ignorance of liberty and a lack of imagination about possibilities. Intelligent people, despite their gifts, are not omniscient. They are ignorant of things, just like the rest of us. Their extreme loss of a sense of liberty is part of their ignorance.

I may have to respect the decision, because it's their life and liberty, even if they are largely ignorant of it. But the decision can never ever be justified, because it relies so much on ignorance.

dynamical phenomena are sequences of states.

Sequences of different states.

 

[renerob]

MICKEY: what happens,by some freak of nature, that you live 1000 years alone in the dark? Wouldn't it have been better to end it in the past whne everone else had died?

Suicide is justified whenever life is not worth living anymore. Period.

 

[DaveC426913]

Suicide is justified whenever life is not worth living anymore. Period.

You've merely defined it in terms of a different undefined term. (Period! :rofl: )

OK, so when is "life not worth living anymore"?

 

[selfAdjoint]

You've merely defined it in terms of a different undefined term. (Period! :rofl: )

OK, so when is "life not worth living anymore"?

When the unitary, unbiddable individual decides it is. The great mathematician G.H. Hardy decided life was not worth living after his talent faded with age, and he eventually took his own life. No-one can judge him.

 

[DaveC426913]

No-one can judge him.

His great-grandchildren can. They will never have the love and guidance of a great-grandfather.

It can be argued that it was selfish of him to think only of himself, and stupid of him to think his only useful contribution to this world was his mathematical ability.

He (or anyone) is not a rock, not an island. He got where he is partly on the shoulders of others, such as friends, family and loved ones. He, by all rights should be considering their needs as well. Whether he wants them or not, it can be argued that he still has obligations and responsibilities to fulfill.

I grant that it doesn't mean they will always outweigh the alternate, but it serves to point out that one's responsibilities do not necessarily end at one's skin.

 

[neurocomp2003]

DaveC: that's if he has descendants, family, friends ,loved ones...and if he cares at all for them or them him. If neither relationship exists then their judgement doesn't matter. Also if his life to his comprehension is no more, isn't it selfish of these people to put the burden of "deeming him selfish" or "requesting that he live" on him making him more depressed?

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

No-one can judge him.

I can. He is a loser for commiting suicide. Just like all the other people who are losers for commiting suicide. There I judged him.

I would have been more explicit but I decided to be nice.

 

[selfAdjoint]

I can. He is a loser for commiting suicide. Just like all the other people who are losers for commiting suicide. There I judged him.

I would have been more explicit but I decided to be nice.

Loser? He was more than I expect you'll ever be. Your "judgement" is no more than an uninformed predjudice. That's all anyone's judgement on someone else's inner mind can amount to.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Loser? He was more than I expect you'll ever be. Your "judgement" is no more than an uninformed predjudice. That's all anyone's judgement on someone else's inner mind can amount to.

I never claimed to be correct, or even valid. I'm just proving the point that I (and everyone else) can judge and label who ever the hell I want whatever the hell I want.

 

[Mickey]

When the unitary, unbiddable individual decides it is.

So it sounds like you're saying that suicide is justified when the individual decides to do it.

That's the only way that suicide can be tolerated, when it is someone's unitary, unbiddable decision. However, just because it is tolerated, does not mean it is justified.

We may be free to make decisions, but that does not mean all decisions are right.

I would have liked to see Hardy fight and pave the way as a role model for other aging mathematicians to have the confidence to continue feeding their diminished talents.

Talents always crave attention. It does no good to starve them, even when they are already diminished.

 

[TuviaDaCat]

Wasting life means throwing away future possibilities that one cannot predict. One may be the last human on Earth, but not the last intelligent life form. Perhaps the machines running at SETI will pick up a signal while the last man on Earth is about to jump off a cliff. Would he want to miss that chance?

yet, after you die, you won't even be able to feel that your life was wasted. so it doesn't really matter what could have happened after you die.

i guess i just chose to live by defult of the human mind...

 

[TuviaDaCat]

It can be argued that it was selfish of him to think only of himself, and stupid of him to think his only useful contribution to this world was his mathematical ability.
at one's skin.

maybe it wasnt about contibution to anyone, he might have been selfish. if a man shares no care to nothing but math, and then loses math, in old age. personally the man would want to die, logically too.

 

[Molydood]

I see it in a very simple way:
if you are not enjoying it, feel free to leave.

I think some people jump (pun not intended) a little too early (without due consideration), but apart from that, then it's their right to either accept life or reject it. All IMO of course.

 

[DaveC426913]

I never claimed to be correct, or even valid. I'm just proving the point that I (and everyone else) can judge and label who ever the hell I want whatever the hell I want.

Testing them apron strings are we?:rofl: