When to settle your differences, and when to seccede.

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In summary, the conversation discusses the appropriateness of settling conflicts within a nation and the conditions under which it is appropriate for groups within a nation to split off into separate countries. The conversation also explores different examples, such as the US government's stance on Iraq and China's anti-secession act for Taiwan, and delves into the complexities of determining when two divergent groups should hammer out their differences or split up. The conversation concludes with the idea that compromise and attempts at peaceful resolution should always be the first course of action before considering separation.
  • #1
wasteofo2
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I'm interested in all your viewpoints about this issue. If you have 2 (or more) groups within a country, and there is conflict between different areas, under what conditions is it appropriate for these different areas within a nation settle their problems, and under what conditions is it appropriate for these groups within a nation to split off into separate countries.

The position of the US government now is (obviously) to keep Iraq as one whole nation, even though the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds would probabally all be happy with each having their own autonomous nations where they are totally in control. Similarly, during the civil war, millions of people died to preserve the Union. However, China is seriously considering the idea of passing an anti-seccession act to make sure that Taiwan stays part of China, even though the Taiwanese mostly want independence, and it seems that the US government is on the side of Taiwanese independence.

So where do you think two divergant groups should hammer out their differences, and when should they just split up?
 
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  • #2
As a first crack at the question, I'd say it's not an either/or choice, but a sequence of events to follow. In other words, if all attempts have been made to hammer out the differences, or at least to come to agreement on how to live together with those differences, and all attempts have failed, then it would be time to consider splitting up. However, consideration also would need to be given to whether the newly formed nations could truly function autonomously, or if there is a reason they need to function together. For example, how are natural resources distributed throughout a country? Are they uniformly distributed, or are there pockets of resources that would go to one side or the other but both really need to be autonomous?
 
  • #3
I honestly think that, in cases like Iraq, where we see disparate ethnic groups that have fought each other for the past 50 years at least, they should just form separate nations. In the case of the US, we had a policy difference. Many states felt left out because the man they voted in as president lost, and they knew that Lincoln's policies would change their way of life. In such a case, it's tought to say who was right. Obviously, many people will simply say that the south wanted to secede to maintain its practice of slave labor, which is morally wrong and they should not be allowed to secede for that reason. But if we extract the specifics, we are left simply with the abstract case of one part of a nation wanting policy that is different from another part. When the rift is great enough, it seems reasonable that if the people of a state agree, they should be able to form their own federal government and secede from the union. On the other hand, if we allowed this, we could easily see the slippery slope effect and end up with several thousand nations. Given the chance, Orange County would secede from California and the Valley would secede from Los Angeles. I know the slippery slope argument is a fallacy, but it remains a real concern in any nation with so many disparate opinions on policy. Imagine if the red states and blue states had split after last year's election. What then? We'd be left with two much easier targets with reduced power, plus the border never remain the same. What do we do with swing states and states that switch party allegiance from election to election? No state has ever voted the same way in every election. We'd end up segregating people according to their current political attitudes, which is never a good idea in a nation that thrives so strongly on a diversity of viewpoints. E pluribus, unum, and it should stay that way.
 
  • #4
If every attempt to maintain peace in the area has failed and people are taking actions that are threating not only the people in the country they are targeting, but neighboring nations as well, it would be to the benefit of everyone to divide the country into equal parts and go their separet ways. For example, the current conflict in Israel and Palestine could blow up into complete violence and chaos...more so than it already is. If that does happen, it would be in the best interests of both groups to separet and act as independent states. The same with Kashmere. It would probably be better for India, Pakistan and the area they are fighting over to just liveas three different states.

However if people are just arguing because of difference of opinion, then that would be a waste of time, energy and effort. Many people disagree because of what they believe. Much of the tension in the world today is based on land disputes.

People need to learn how to swallow their pride and compromise to meet everyone's best interests. Granted not every situation will be a win-win situation. People at least need to try.
 
  • #5
Another initial response, which follows along the line of what Moonbear posted...

Moonbear said:
As a first crack at the question, I'd say it's not an either/or choice, but a sequence of events to follow. In other words, if all attempts have been made to hammer out the differences, or at least to come to agreement on how to live together with those differences, and all attempts have failed, then it would be time to consider splitting up.
Using India as an example, it was partitioned along religious lines, with Hindu areas allocated to India, and Muslim areas to Pakistan. Nonetheless, the conflict has continued for more than 50 years now, with three wars.
Moonbear said:
However, consideration also would need to be given to whether the newly formed nations could truly function autonomously, or if there is a reason they need to function together. For example, how are natural resources distributed throughout a country? Are they uniformly distributed, or are there pockets of resources that would go to one side or the other but both really need to be autonomous?
Pakistan now struggles economically while India is thriving. With regard to the U.S., it is said that if the South had succeeded, it would be a third-world country now.

In further response to the original thread, the other issue is foreign intervention. The indiscriminate changing of borders by foreign powers have often caused these problems in the first place. Perhaps the answer is that the countries will be split depending on what serves the interests of the world power(s) at the time.
 
  • #6
Very complex (good) question and very good arguments. Waste, I just want to add that the 3 situations that you listed are not directly analogous to each other (I'm sure you know it, its just no one has said it). In the US, our "Join or die," "if we don't hang together, we'll hang separately" mentality that predates our Constitution biases us toward preaching unity (and, in general, I'm a big fan of it), but other countries' situations are often far more complex, with their burden of history to deal with.
 
  • #7
SOS2008 said:
In further response to the original thread, the other issue is foreign intervention. The indiscriminate changing of borders by foreign powers have often caused these problems in the first place. Perhaps the answer is that the countries will be split depending on what serves the interests of the world power(s) at the time.

This had crossed my mind as well, so I'm glad you brought it up. There may be some boundary or history I'm forgetting, but it just doesn't seem to work for an outside, third-party to come in and try to settle differences by drawing new borders on a map. This only seems to add fuel to the fire of resistance. Rather, dividing into separate nations seems to be something that needs to come from within, and boundaries settled internally (even if it means internal conflict or civil war), not external intervention. If only the parties directly affected by the division duke it out, it just seems acceptance of new borders may be more likely because there is a clear winner and loser. The "why can't everybody just get along" strategy just doesn't work for these long-standing conflicts. One side needs incentive to compromise and give into the other side. In other words, we need a loser who will then accept the terms of the winner because accepting those terms gives them a bit more freedom and territory than what they would have if they continued fighting until truly eradicated.
 
  • #8
Perhaps one answer is found in -

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
History of mankind has unfortunately been one of conflict among peoples of different tribes, clans, or otherwise different cultural or ethnic groups. Clans are often built around family (and extended family) ties. Tribes are usually larger groups.

Conflicts are often driven by individuals (e.g. king, chieftan, etc) or small groups (e.g. nobility) desire to control (dominate/subjugate) members of another clan or tribe. And far too many people feel compelled to participate in warfare. My ancestors have been of both sides of many conflicts in England, Scotland and Scandanavia.

The current national borders are simply arbitrary, and subject to change, and as SOS2008 pointed out "Perhaps the answer is that the countries will be split depending on what serves the interests of the world power(s) at the time." This situation is a continuing theme in history - whether it is the Sumerians (Babylonians), Akkadians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Mongols, Rus, Vikings, Greeks, Romans, Turks, etc.

Refer to - worldhistory@fsmitha.com
 
  • #9
russ_watters said:
Very complex (good) question and very good arguments. Waste, I just want to add that the 3 situations that you listed are not directly analogous to each other (I'm sure you know it, its just no one has said it). In the US, our "Join or die," "if we don't hang together, we'll hang separately" mentality that predates our Constitution biases us toward preaching unity (and, in general, I'm a big fan of it), but other countries' situations are often far more complex, with their burden of history to deal with.
Of course the three situations aren't perfectly analogous, I just chose some random examples without trying to make them equitable to one another.
 
  • #10
I like city states much better then empires
smaller the government the better
and much closer to the will of the local people
why do we need bigger units then a city state?

as the greeks did when an outside empire threatens they can unite to repell
invasions

just what is the real point of big countrys in the modern world
except to bully smaller ones?
 
  • #11
russ_watters said:
Very complex (good) question and very good arguments. Waste, I just want to add that the 3 situations that you listed are not directly analogous to each other (I'm sure you know it, its just no one has said it). In the US, our "Join or die," "if we don't hang together, we'll hang separately" mentality that predates our Constitution biases us toward preaching unity (and, in general, I'm a big fan of it), but other countries' situations are often far more complex, with their burden of history to deal with.
Actually, the "Join or Die" and the "If we don't hang together, we'll hang separately" reflected the level of severity things had to reach in order to convince thirteen independent minded states to bond together. The Constitution, with its Second Amendment, reflects how leary some states were about this all working out. They wanted to preserve their ability to back out if things didn't work out so well.

Of course, in practice, the idea of backing out didn't work out so well, either, and the North's victory over the South is really the beginning of the United States as we know it today - where the federal government is more powerful than the individual state governments.

(In fact, the threatened secession of the Western states prompted Congress to approve the Louisiana Purchase. If the US didn't buy the Louisiana Territory, the Western states were considering buying it and forming their own country, one that would have complete control of the Mississippi and the ability to bypass the Eastern states to deal with European countries directly.)
 
  • #12
Well, the failure of the Articles of Confederation certainly reflects "the level of severity", but I never have bought into the idea that the 2nd amdendment was meant as giving the states the right to secede. If it was, why didn't it just say so? Further, if the states were meant to have the right to secede, the Civil War (started by the north) would have been illegal and could have been challenged in court.
 
  • #13
Moonbear said:
This had crossed my mind as well, so I'm glad you brought it up. There may be some boundary or history I'm forgetting, but it just doesn't seem to work for an outside, third-party to come in and try to settle differences by drawing new borders on a map. This only seems to add fuel to the fire of resistance. Rather, dividing into separate nations seems to be something that needs to come from within, and boundaries settled internally (even if it means internal conflict or civil war), not external intervention. If only the parties directly affected by the division duke it out, it just seems acceptance of new borders may be more likely because there is a clear winner and loser. The "why can't everybody just get along" strategy just doesn't work for these long-standing conflicts. One side needs incentive to compromise and give into the other side. In other words, we need a loser who will then accept the terms of the winner because accepting those terms gives them a bit more freedom and territory than what they would have if they continued fighting until truly eradicated.

Moonbear you're right when you say that the must be a loser, but really is there any way to have a country to swallow their pride and accept the terms of the agreement. Personally, I think it is improbable.

This is a good point that the both of you have raised. Actually I was under the impression that we have an example of the situation you both speak of. As far as my understanding takes me, the current argument between Israel and Palestine fits this pretty good. There are even multiple third parties involved; the U.N. and the United States. This scenario can also actively applies to the situations involving India and Pakistan as various people have mentioned. China and Taiwan might not be a bad couple to mention either.

One thing that I have been wondering is, how would any of these problems be solved, looking out for not only the best interests of the countries that are having this arguement, but for the world powers as well. Why would the interests of the world powers need to be considered as well beyond protecting one of their allies? What would their motivation be to get involved? When would be the right time, if there is one, for a third party to step in. When would they stop acting as mediaries and more as someone who is looking to get something out of it? Because when that happens, more problems are usually in-tow. How would you get a country who is unbiased to either side to act a mediary? The United Nations is only unbiased to a point. After that it seems to be pretty deadlocked. Then there steps would need to be taken to reach a consensus there before preceeding could return to the original agenda.

I don't know how clear that is or how ignorant it sounds, but those are some of the questions I have had enter my mind while reading this forum and watching the news. I tried to be as clear as I could. :redface: I hope it makes sense.
 
  • #14
russ_watters said:
Well, the failure of the Articles of Confederation certainly reflects "the level of severity", but I never have bought into the idea that the 2nd amdendment was meant as giving the states the right to secede. If it was, why didn't it just say so? Further, if the states were meant to have the right to secede, the Civil War (started by the north) would have been illegal and could have been challenged in court.
By who? If the South had the right to secede, then they weren't US citizens anymore and didn't have the right to challenge it in a US court. If they didn't have the right to secede, the secession was invalid and they still had the right to challenge it in court, but would lose.

Actually, the idea was to preserve the capability. If the states were stronger than the federal government, both economically and militarily, the federal government couldn't stop them.

Besides states like Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, and Kentucky using the threat of secession as a little extra encouragement to approve the Louisiana Purchase, I think New England used that threat successfully a couple of times to influence Congress one way or the other on a couple of issues.

Before the War of 1812, it would have been ludicrous to think the US could stop any state from seceding. Seeing the capitol in flames changed a lot of people's thinking about how strong the federal government should be. I guess one could say the transition had already taken place by the time the Civil War took place, but if it was obvious, the South wouldn't have tried to secede.
 
  • #15
When you think about it, Iraq's situation isn't that different than the early days of the US.

Economically, it's definitely to the benefit of both the Shiites and Kurds to maintain one country. Considering the problems the Kurds would have with Turkey, Iran, and the Sunnis, you could toss in security, as well, in their case.

Culturally, none of the groups are going to be willing to give up very much and will be very nervous about a central government strong enough to do to them what Hussein did. They're all going to be very distrustful of each other and that's going to make any kind of strongly unified country a tough task.

It can be done, but it's going to take a long time and will evolve rather than be something that can be implemented right off the bat.
 
  • #16
BobG said:
By who? If the South had the right to secede, then they weren't US citizens anymore and didn't have the right to challenge it in a US court. If they didn't have the right to secede, the secession was invalid and they still had the right to challenge it in court, but would lose.
No, the choice do do anything comes before you do it. They could have, say, passed a law in Congress (signed by the President) authorizing them to secede. They could have simply sued the government in court the way people sue for divorce. Either would have been legal.

I'm not saying it would have worked - to the contrary, I'm saying they made no effort to work within the system and that, to me says they knew it was not legal.

HERE is the "Ordinances of Secession" of the 13 states that seceded. Of note is that most did not state any justification, they just said 'we're out.' The Constitution is a signed contract and unless it is specifically stated in the contract, a contract cannot be unilaterally voided (that would defeat the whole purpose of a "contract").

Alabama lays out reasons for their secession. They state that the North violated the Constituion - a breach of contract that would be a basis for suing to void the contract (and several others mention voiding the "compact"). But no one sued - all unilaterally stated that the contract was now void. Again, you can't do that.
Actually, the idea was to preserve the capability. If the states were stronger than the federal government, both economically and militarily, the federal government couldn't stop them.
Do you have any context for that? Since the states can only have a "militia", not an "army" (or navy) like the federal government, that would seem unlikely.
Before the War of 1812, it would have been ludicrous to think the US could stop any state from seceding. Seeing the capitol in flames changed a lot of people's thinking about how strong the federal government should be. I guess one could say the transition had already taken place by the time the Civil War took place, but if it was obvious, the South wouldn't have tried to secede.
I think it was obvious the South knew what they were doing was not legal. The entire reason that the Articles of Confederation failed was the Fed didn't have enough power: secession at that time was irrelevant - no need to secede from the union if you could simply ignore it. With the Constitution, the Fed now had the power and power of secession would have undermined that power.

Regarding that first part you posted, about "if the South had the right to secede...", its an interesting dilema, but I think it cuts the opposite way from where you think it does: The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and no state may pass a law that usurps that power. The ordinances of secession are illegal - but more importantly, void - at face value.
 
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  • #17
BobG said:
When you think about it, Iraq's situation isn't that different than the early days of the US.

Economically, it's definitely to the benefit of both the Shiites and Kurds to maintain one country. Considering the problems the Kurds would have with Turkey, Iran, and the Sunnis, you could toss in security, as well, in their case.

Culturally, none of the groups are going to be willing to give up very much and will be very nervous about a central government strong enough to do to them what Hussein did. They're all going to be very distrustful of each other and that's going to make any kind of strongly unified country a tough task.

It can be done, but it's going to take a long time and will evolve rather than be something that can be implemented right off the bat.

Hi, Bob,

This is an interesting question that you bring up. I'm not sure that I completely understand it. I'm not sure I understand why it would be better economically for the Kurds and the Shiites to remain connected.

Wouldn't it be better if they just separated and form their own democratic states? That way they can elect officials who wouldn't repeat the mistakes Hussein made. Then they could carry on their own cultures as they pleased and they would be unified under different flags.

I don't know very much about the Kurds. I'm not going to pretend that I do. So to enlighten my ignorant mind: What problems would the Kurdish have with the Turkish, Sunni, and Iran? Did they do something to insult those countries or do people just hate them?
 
  • #18
russ_watters said:
... Do you have any context for that? Since the states can only have a "militia", not an "army" (or navy) like the federal government, that would seem unlikely. ... I think it was obvious the South knew what they were doing was not legal. The entire reason that the Articles of Confederation failed was the Fed didn't have enough power: secession at that time was irrelevant - no need to secede from the union if you could simply ignore it. With the Constitution, the Fed now had the power and power of secession would have undermined that power.
I agree that the South didn't have any more legal authority to secede from the US than the US has any legal authority to withdraw from membership in the UN. I doubt that would stop us. Legally, we couldn't invade Iraq without UN authorization, a fact we kind of acknowledged by taking our case to the UN in the first place. If the organization only has power on paper, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

You're also right about why the Articles of Confederation failed. It's just that we didn't immediately jump from a government as toothless as the UN to our present state. They gave the federal government more power on paper, but real power took a lot longer.

And you underestimate the importance of militias back then.

Virtually the entire Confederate army consisted of militias. Although they had originally planned to have a regular army of about 10,000, supplemented by volunteer and state militias, the Confedrate regular army wound up being only about 1750 men. The rest was a well organized conglomeration of state and local volunteer militias.

The Union relied a lot on volunteer and state militias, as well, but unfortunately for the North, that didn't work nearly as as well as it did in the South. Any local yokel could wind up a general of his own army and wind up responsible for training it. It was part of the reason the South beat up the North so bad at the start of the war. The North quickly reinstating a little discipline into the organization of its Army had as much to do with turning the tide of the war as the North's advantage in resources.
 
  • #19
misskitty said:
Hi, Bob,

This is an interesting question that you bring up. I'm not sure that I completely understand it. I'm not sure I understand why it would be better economically for the Kurds and the Shiites to remain connected.

Wouldn't it be better if they just separated and form their own democratic states? That way they can elect officials who wouldn't repeat the mistakes Hussein made. Then they could carry on their own cultures as they pleased and they would be unified under different flags.

I don't know very much about the Kurds. I'm not going to pretend that I do. So to enlighten my ignorant mind: What problems would the Kurdish have with the Turkish, Sunni, and Iran? Did they do something to insult those countries or do people just hate them?
Whatever gets the oil flowing from Iraq to its customers fastest is what's best for the Shiites and Kurds, since just about all the oil fields lie in their territory. That makes any fighting in Iraq bad for them. Better to settle their differences and get about selling oil.

Turkey and Iran have a lot of Kurds in their own country (one of the drawbacks of Europeans drawing up the borders during colonization instead of the indigenous population). Neither would be willing to give up part of their land as an independent Kurdistan. Neither can really afford a mass emigration of Kurdish labor from their country, either. Both strongly oppose an independent Kurdish state, probably strong enough to intervene militarily. If the three main Iraqi groups formed their own country, the Sunnis would be left without any oil fields and would be transformed from Iraq's ruling group to an impoverished third world nation (losing Hussein was bad for the Sunnis, hence Sunni territory being the center for insurgency and terrorism - the rest of the country has problems, but isn't in nearly as bad a shape). The Sunnis be more than happy to step in and control Kurdish territory for the Turks and/or Iranians.
 
  • #20
Thank you for the explanation. This is going to sound ignorant. However I'm asking because I want to know.

After the second world war, when countries where being acknoledged as independent, the Kurdish should have gotten their own country. I understand the position with the concern for the military intervention. Who and why would they attack anyone? Couldn't the League of Nations (or the U.N. I can't remember who was around then) just keep an eye on them?
 
  • #21
Back more to topic...
misskitty said:
Moonbear you're right when you say that the must be a loser, but really is there any way to have a country to swallow their pride and accept the terms of the agreement. Personally, I think it is improbable.
The Pal/Israel situation is by far the toughest of such situations and one where I think both sides will have to swallow their pride a little. But Israel has to take a far bigger bite: it has to give up territory, settlements, tear down walls, etc. The Palestinians' biggest concession is philosophical: simply accepting Israel's right to exist - simply accepting a previous agreement that they had rejected. I'm not sure that is something the terrorists will accept, but the government has already de facto accepted it: the current position is that Israel withdraw to the 1967 borders. Hopefully, the PA can sell that as a victory (Israel is withdrawing!) and not a loss (Israel exists!).
 
  • #22
russ_watters said:
Back more to topic... The Pal/Israel situation is by far the toughest of such situations and one where I think both sides will have to swallow their pride a little. But Israel has to take a far bigger bite: it has to give up territory, settlements, tear down walls, etc. The Palestinians' biggest concession is philosophical: simply accepting Israel's right to exist - simply accepting a previous agreement that they had rejected. I'm not sure that is something the terrorists will accept, but the government has already de facto accepted it: the current position is that Israel withdraw to the 1967 borders. Hopefully, the PA can sell that as a victory (Israel is withdrawing!) and not a loss (Israel exists!).

Fair enough. I can agree with that. However with that senario, both end up being winners, instead of a winner and a loser. Which is great. It wouldn't kill either one of them to swallow their pride. :smile:

In the end they both end up with having their own recognized countries. Now if every one else who is having a similar debate could follow the example set by Israel and Palestine. :rolleyes:
 
  • #23
russ_watters said:
Back more to topic... The Pal/Israel situation is by far the toughest of such situations and one where I think both sides will have to swallow their pride a little. But Israel has to take a far bigger bite: it has to give up territory, settlements, tear down walls, etc. The Palestinians' biggest concession is philosophical: simply accepting Israel's right to exist - simply accepting a previous agreement that they had rejected. I'm not sure that is something the terrorists will accept, but the government has already de facto accepted it: the current position is that Israel withdraw to the 1967 borders. Hopefully, the PA can sell that as a victory (Israel is withdrawing!) and not a loss (Israel exists!).
Actually, the Palestinians' philosophical concession is bigger than that. You make it sound like they're being asked to recognize the existence of the Jewish people.

When the Ottoman empire fell in World War I, what's now Israel was Palestinian territory under British control while Jordan was Arab territory under British control. The Jewish people formed a fairly large minority in the regions close to Jerusalem. The Palestinians had hoped they would eventually be their own independent country (the same as what happened in Jordan post WWII). Instead, Hitler started persecuting Jews in Germany, resulting in large numbers of Jews leaving Germany and resettling near their holy lands near Jerusalem.

After WWII, in acknowledgment of the large Jewish contingent now living there, what's now Israel was originally supposed to be divided between Jews and Palestinians (the division was pretty fractured - even worse than what Yugoslavia looks like today). The Palestinians rejected that idea, saying the entire region should be theirs, just like they'd been counting on ever since the end of the Ottoman empire. Since the Palestinians wouldn't play, they wound up with nothing. Just more territory for those who would play nice. Except, of course, the Jewish people had nothing to lose and everything to gain by playing nice, while the Palestinians would lose territory by playing nice.

Now the roles are reversed. Palestinians have nothing to lose by playing nice, while, for Israel, playing nice means giving up territory.
 
  • #24
My previous statement is thus inaccurate. There will be a loser in the sense of territory. They both win as far as getting their own country goes. However, they lose as far as who gets what chunk of land.

How about just sectioning off the piece they both want, then drawing their boundaries around it but not including it, and then they can both use what's there?

It doesn't make 100% sense, but its a thought. At least that way they can both suceed to have their own nations, but still share the land they are both interested.
 
  • #25
BobG said:
...while the Palestinians would lose territory by playing nice.
I was with you right up until here. Having never had a country of their own, the Palestinians had exactly the same amount to lose as the Jews did. They may have had the *perception* that they were *entitled* (its the entitlement thread!) to a country by default, but when has such a perception ever been reality? There are places still living under the British crown. Why should the Palestinians think they were any different?
Now the roles are reversed. Palestinians have nothing to lose by playing nice...
They have the same thing to lose as they had before: the perception that they are entitled to more. For an ideology based entirely on that sense of entitlement, that's a mighty big concession.
 
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  • #26
russ_watters said:
I was with you right up until here. Having never had a country of their own, the Palestinians had exactly the same amount to lose as the Jews did. They may have had the *perception* that they were *entitled* (its the entitlement thread!) to a country by default, but when has such a perception ever been reality? There are places still living under the British crown. Why should the Palestinians think they were any different? They have the same thing to lose as they had before: the perception that they are entitled to more. For an ideology based entirely on that sense of entitlement, that's a mighty big concession.
Your logic kind of depends upon assuming that since the Jordan/Palestine area was a British colony, that Great Britain had the right to decide whether either area would be independent and the terms of that independence.

That logic also depends on assuming that, until Great Britain decided to grant it independence, the decisions on emigration into the territory were entirely up to Great Britain. The Palestinians sure weren't happy about British policies towards Jewish immigration into the area. They rightly saw it as a bad solution adopted solely because Europe didn't have the courage to address the root problem - Hitler.

There's not much you can do about it now except deal with the present situation, so I'm not that sympathetic towards the Palestinians. But I'm sure a lot more understanding of their position on something that occurred in their own lifetimes (well, at least a few still) than I am of, say, the Irish still going on about how Great Britain stole their land and moved in immigrants over 300 years ago.
 
  • #27
BobG said:
Your logic kind of depends upon assuming that since the Jordan/Palestine area was a British colony, that Great Britain had the right to decide whether either area would be independent and the terms of that independence.

Yes, they had the utter right to determine these things by right of conquest. That is the UK was on the winning side and the Turkish Empire was on the losing side in WWI. The victors assigned Palestine to the UK.

Compare Wales; the English conquered it in the Middle Ages, and it STILL isn't free!
 
  • #28
Bob, just a few corrections, modifications..what have you...
Your logic kind of depends upon assuming that since the Jordan/Palestine area was a British colony, that Great Britain had the right to decide whether either area would be independent and the terms of that independence
Erm..let's not forget Syria and Egypt..Lebanon..and well France had a bit of input as well eh? In fact, they divided up the whole area, lot stock and barrel AND the only "people" the "Arab nation" has had a united front against..is well, the ebil jews. They have not united to protect the kurds, the armenians or others. They have not screamed in unision to protect the national rights of any other group as a whole except for the Palestinians, who were not even recognized as a separate nationality at the time.

That logic also depends on assuming that, until Great Britain decided to grant it independence, the decisions on emigration into the territory were entirely up to Great Britain. The Palestinians sure weren't happy about British policies towards Jewish immigration into the area. They rightly saw it as a bad solution adopted solely because Europe didn't have the courage to address the root problem - Hitler.
ahem, Hitler wasn't the issue when immigration of Jews became an issue. Europian anti-semitism was. They have a rather black and ugly history regarding the jews theirselves. Not to mention that much of the Arab nation had close relationships to hitler during WW2, which excarberated the issue I'm sure.


There's not much you can do about it now except deal with the present situation, so I'm not that sympathetic towards the Palestinians. But I'm sure a lot more understanding of their position on something that occurred in their own lifetimes (well, at least a few still) than I am of, say, the Irish still going on about how Great Britain stole their land and moved in immigrants over 300 years
I'm actually quite sympathetic to the Palestinians, but their problems are MINOR compared to many other peoples and much of what has happened in palestine has been as a result of political ploys by the Arab nations to win back this small chunk of land that they see as some sort of slap in the face to the entire Arab nation..22 countries strong. What a shame that such a small fraction of land can't be given to the jewish people to live in peace.
 
  • #29
BobG said:
Your logic kind of depends upon assuming that since the Jordan/Palestine area was a British colony, that Great Britain had the right to decide whether either area would be independent and the terms of that independence.
My logic depends mostly on the facts of the history and the perceptions of the people resulting from the history. Britain's "right to decide" isn't completely relevant: Britain did decide.

The fact is, Britain decided Palestine was to be a country and it didn't happen. They lost the possibility of a country.

Where Britain's "right to decide" does become a little relevant is in the perceptions of the Palestinians I was talking about before. The perception is that they were entitled to a country covering the entire area, while the decision was to split the area into two countries. They gambled in not accepting the compromise and ended up with nothing. Up until very, very recently, that has been the position. That's why I say taking the step back to the original rejected comprimise is a concession in the perceptions, if not in reality.

You can't give up something you never had and the Palestinians never had a country to lose. But they did have an offer on the table and a perception of entitlement.
There's not much you can do about it now except deal with the present situation, so I'm not that sympathetic towards the Palestinians. But I'm sure a lot more understanding of their position on something that occurred in their own lifetimes (well, at least a few still) than I am of, say, the Irish still going on about how Great Britain stole their land and moved in immigrants over 300 years ago.
I'm with you on that, but with kat's caveat. It is unfortunate that the Palestinians have been such a political pawn of everyone - east and west.
 
  • #30
selfAdjoint said:
Yes, they had the utter right to determine these things by right of conquest. That is the UK was on the winning side and the Turkish Empire was on the losing side in WWI. The victors assigned Palestine to the UK.

Compare Wales; the English conquered it in the Middle Ages, and it STILL isn't free!
Cynical as it may be, that is something I can agree with.

Things exist on two planes - how things should be and how things actually are. The way things "should be" is pretty subjective, even if a few things are so basic as to have near universal agreement over. The way things "are" is a fact and carry more weight. With a few exceptions, better to assume that what is was meant to be and learn to adapt to the way things are rather than whine about the way things should be.

Regardless of how things should be, the only rights people really own are those that they can protect on their own. What happened to the Palestinians, what happened to the Jews, what has happened to the Kurds over the years, what's happened to Iraqis under Hussein, happened because they weren't strong enough to defend the "rights" that they deserved.

It's not exactly Utopia, but it's the way things happen in the world. The only reason they haven't happened in the US is because we were strong enough (and far enough away to make it difficult for the British to wage a successful war) to grab our own "rights" and to protect them (as opposed to the Native Americans whose rights are whatever the US government decides they are).

The problem with that is that it reduces to anyone having only one "right" - to fight to acquire their other "inalienable rights". Then the discussion just degrades to what's an acceptable manner to fight for those rights.
 
  • #31
Bob, you've got a really good point. How things should be is the ideal scenario for life. I mean how much easier would things in the Middle East be if everything was as it should be? But that' not the hand the world was dealt and now they have to figure out what the best way to play those cards is.

I want to respond to Russ's earlier post, number 25. The Palestinians never had their own country, but we recognized Israel in 1945 as a soverign state before the close of the second world war. If the Palestinians have never had their own country, then whose country were they part of before Israel? Just curious.
 
  • #32
misskitty said:
Bob, you've got a really good point. How things should be is the ideal scenario for life. I mean how much easier would things in the Middle East be if everything was as it should be? But that' not the hand the world was dealt and now they have to figure out what the best way to play those cards is.

I want to respond to Russ's earlier post, number 25. The Palestinians never had their own country, but we recognized Israel in 1945 as a soverign state before the close of the second world war. If the Palestinians have never had their own country, then whose country were they part of before Israel? Just curious.

??
there was NO Israel intill the partition in 1948
how could anyone recognize a country BEFORE it became one

prior to the 1948 WAR the holyland was british ruled before ww1 it was turkish ruled

btw how could there be a Isreal back in the pre-1000bce era as claimed
by them when that whole region was part of the EGYPTIAN EMPIRE
in FACT the wandering JEWS NEVER LEFT LANDS OF EGYPTIAN RULE
during the whole of the EXODUS and their claimed kingdom was part of the EGYPTIAN EMPIRE intill post 1000bce except for brief perods of rebellion
 

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