Where does new space come from as the universe gets bigger?

  • #176
timmdeeg
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My advice is to conjoin the other answers that have been supplied by the mathematicians,physicists,astrophysicists and cosmologists (students or academics) and for you to arrive at your own conclusion(s).
Casimir update:
A sheet of graphene is one atom thick which makes it the first two-dimensional object humans have ever created, seen and manipulated. The uses for such a material are still being investigated. Ultra-high frequency/ switching, transistors/diodes are one application.
The more exiting application is in zero-point energy research which we were working on in Wisconsin, (Quantum fields). Basically, the Casimir Effect is the negative pressure/ energy upon two metal plate separated by a very small distance. Placing and keeping these plates at such a small distance is very difficult due to alignment problems of the gold plates. This is where graphene is useful.
Using four grapheme packing shims on each corner of one of the plates and then bringing the two gold plates together; not only would/is the separation of the plates be precise and stable, but the distance between the plates would/is be only one atomic diameter. Fabrication of a complete monolithic ‘carbon chip’ with billions of these will follow. The chip will ‘sum’ the energy collected by the number of zero-point elements fabricated on the chip and would not require an external power supply.
It would be using energy extracted directly from the zero-point Heisenberg field.
That would be great, no doubt. But it seems, there is a lot of scepticism, despite graphene being an extraordinary material in this context. Kindly look here, Utilization controversy. You are obviously very knowledgeable in this field. Therefore I would like to ask, are there any hopeful experimental results?

P.S. If I am writing only a few sentences, its because it is very time consuming not to write in my mother language, no other reason, like disregard.
 
  • #177
timmdeeg
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I've also never seen anyone demonstrate that Heisenberg's principle suggests in any rigorous way that virtual particles fluctuate out of the vacuum. I mean, I'm well aware that this idea pervades popularizations of QFT and is standard lore in professional physics...but my question is: does the HUP imply the existence of virtual particles outside of perturbative treatments of QFT?
Interesting question, I would love to know the opinion of experts in this field. Jaffe asks "Do the zero point energies of quantum fields contribute to the energy density of the vacuum and, mutatis mutandis, to the cosmological constant." The answer could help to solve one of the biggest mysteries of the universe.

Another question. A measurable physical phenomenon, the Casimir force, is based on two underlying concepts, which seem to exclude each other (with, and without the quantum vacuum). How is this possible unless these concepts are related (or perhaps coincide) on a deeper level?
 
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  • #178
George Jones
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Interesting question, I would love to know the opinion of experts in this field. Jaffe asks "Do the zero point energies of quantum fields contribute to the energy density of the vacuum and, mutatis mutandis, to the cosmological constant." The answer could help to solve one of the biggest mysteries of the universe.
No one knows. For a fascinating technical, but somewhat pedagogical, overview, see the link I give below.

I intended to post the free field cut-off calculation that produces a result that differs from the observed value of the cosmological constant by 120 orders of magnitude (or so), and then to comment on interesting comments about the situation for interacting field in section 5.7 "Vacuum energy and the cosmological constant problem" from Maggiore's book "A Modern Introduction to Quantum Field Theroy".

Shortly after making the above comment, I came across the following fascinating technical review article

http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.3365,

which goes far beyond Maggiore's comments.
 
  • #179
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Nice article George Jones, I'll definitely keep a copy of this one, and thanks for the accolades Frank.

There is one model I've been trying to learn for some time, but I'll admit I've been struggling with it. ADS/CFT=Anti-Desitter/conformal field theory correspondence. LOL my string theory is the main stumbling block. Seems to me the vacuum energy is in one of the string dimensions, but its been difficult for me to make heads or tails of this model, other than it can have a varying number of dimension depending on the ADS number. Ie ADS5or ADS4. From what I understand its a model that's highly cited.

Also the model ties into the holographic model,

Introduction to ADS/CFT
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0712.0689v2.pdf


this QFT fields book is what first got me interested in it, over 800 pages long
http://arxiv.org/abs/hepth/9912205 : "Fields" - A free lengthy technical training manual on classical and quantum fields

the support material I gathered is below
An Introduction to Conformal Field Theory
http://arxiv.org/pdf...h/9910156v2.pdf [Broken]
Introducing Conformal Field Theory
http://www.damtp.cam...string/four.pdf [Broken]
Applied Conformal Field Theory
http://arxiv.org/pdf...-th/9108028.pdf [Broken]
An Introduction to Generalized Yang-Mills Theories
http://arxiv.org/pdf...lication_detail [Broken]
 
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  • #180
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2
Hello Mordred,
Quote: 'There is one model I've been trying to learn for some time, but I'll admit I've been struggling with it. ADS/CFT=Anti-De-sitter/conformal field theory correspondence. LOL my string theory is the main stumbling block. Seems to me the vacuum energy is in one of the string dimensions, but its been difficult for me to make heads or tails of this model, other than it can have a varying number of dimension depending on the ADS number. i.e ADS5or ADS4. From what I understand its a model that's highly cited.' Un-quote.

All the worries about the Maldacena(ADS/CFT) conjecture, and most other string, Riemann, mathematical cosmology including spinors and twistors,
research Roger Penrose's, "The Road to Reality". It is visibly a highly technical/mathematical tome of 1094 pages. Exactly what you need for your work.
I would give you my opinion, but the mathematical script does not translate to these pages. My usual analogous form is far too a 'primitive' descriptive exercise, given the complexity of your question against the lack of symbolic representation that I would require to give you a correct and serious academic answer.
Library /book designation: ISBN 0-224-04447-8.
I cannot praise this works enough. 'One of the most important work of the second half of the twentieth century.' The Times.
In a single work of colossal scope one of the world's greatest scientists has given us a complete and unrivalled guide to the glories of the universe which we all inhabit. He was/is Stephen Hawking's mathematician and friend.
P.S. Thanks for the mention!
 
  • #181
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104
thanks for the reference, will have to pick it up. I fully relate the difficulty involved in explaining the model in a post lol.
 
  • #182
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2
I am working on a paper which , as a conjecture, is related to the speed of light and is, tentatively called, 'Quantum Impedance'.
This relates, simplistically, to the constancy of the speed of photons through a vacuum.
High-end relativistic theory does not take into account the microwave background radiation, neutrino flux and the virtual foam ( as zero point energy ).
(Aouchiche and Mullen refutes this idea for interesting personal reasons)
Thinking outside the box is what we do people.
If you Google everything, all you are getting is a mish-mash of KNOWN theories.
Your thoughts and ideas, however strange they may appear to your peers, are as equally valid.
You have all probably noticed that Newton and Leibniz did not have exalted degree status.
Funny that. But you all know and study the calculus...
Thanks for listening.
 
  • #183
38
2
Interesting question, I would love to know the opinion of experts in this field. Jaffe asks "Do the zero point energies of quantum fields contribute to the energy density of the vacuum and, mutatis mutandis, to the cosmological constant." The answer could help to solve one of the biggest mysteries of the universe.
Hello Timmdeeg:
I have not responded to your question so far, as I have been pondering an answer, but
I have to follow George (Mentor) in his reply.
It is obvious that there are different aspect to the universe that we do not/cannot and will not understand completely.
To give you a simplistic answer to your question would not suffice as everyone in this forum is after truths as we know them.
Although nature in all 'Her' diversity appears simple in relative terms, her complexity in allowing this simplicity, is beyond the present ability for us to comprehend or understand completely.
Before I am told to desist by the moderator, for introducing philosophy, it has to be said that a great deal of mathematics and physics is attempting to merge consciousness with/into the math and our entanglement with the universe as the 'Schrödinger box' scenario. One of these people is myself.
I can only give you a direction:
Gödel's incompleteness theorem.
Hidden variables.
Most of these ideas are for you to take in, learn and pass on to other students etc.
This is called rote learning.
Now look at the future...students looking up YOUR name; conjectures,theories and proofs...
Out of the box, being expelled form academia or ridiculed?
Remember Higgs...!
I like the precision in the use of mutatis mutandis in the question above.
For the first part of the question,
"Do the zero point energies of quantum fields contribute to the energy density of the vacuum?".
In short, they are the embedded structure of the vacuum.
"and, mutatis mutandis, to the cosmological constant.".

Difficult to answer to your exact use of mutatis mutandis.

1.With those things having been changed which need to be changed.
2.The necessary changes having been made.
3.The things that should have been changed having been changed.
Being pedantic, which one should I,if you wish, respond to?
Thank you.
 
  • #184
2,081
104
lol then you have me...
Study everything, no matter what your gut reaction is, you always learn something. Separate the bad ideas from the good ideas with a full understanding of what an idea entails into what makes the most sense to you. Always be prepared to have your view point changed with new understanding.

by the way I am thoroughly enjoying the "Road to reality" book you recommended Frank, I've only gotten part way and I've already learned a ton in regards to the various geometric metrics used in QFT, Reimann geometry strings etc
 
  • #185
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Addenda:
Gödel's incompleteness theorem.
'The theorem that in any sufficiently powerful, logically consistent formulation of logic or mathematics there must be true formulas which are neither provable nor disprovable. The theorem entails the corollary that the consistency of a logical system cannot be proved within that system.

Hidden variables.
Historically, in physics, hidden variable theories were espoused by some physicists who argued that the state of a physical system, as formulated by quantum mechanics, does not give a complete description for the system; i.e., that quantum mechanics is ultimately incomplete, and that a complete theory would provide descriptive categories to account for all observable behaviour and thus avoid any indeterminism. The existence of indeterminacy for some measurements is a characteristic of prevalent interpretations of quantum mechanics; moreover, bounds for indeterminacy can be Gödel's incompleteness theorem.
The theorem that in any sufficiently powerful, logically consistent formulation of logic or mathematics there must be true formulas which are neither provable nor disprovable. The theorem entails the corollary that the consistency of a logical system cannot be proved within that system.
 
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  • #186
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Study everything, no matter what your gut reaction is, you always learn something. Separate the bad ideas from the good ideas with a full understanding of what an idea entails into what makes the most sense to you. Always be prepared to have your view point changed with new understanding.
Hello Mordred.(Mordred is a character in the Arthurian legend, known as a notorious traitor who fought King Arthur at the Battle of Camlann, where he was killed and Arthur fatally wounded. ...)
Funny that, because I am Wiccan...
Anyway,
I couldn't have said that better,or more succinctly, myself...
Glad that Sir Roger is assisting you in your work and understanding!
 
  • #187
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104
lol yeah more precisely his evil son :P
 
  • #188
Drakkith
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
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Is this thread even going anywhere anymore?
 
  • #189
2,081
104
No I think we've covered everything to do with the OP of the thread in just about every possible manner. Regardless of which model or metric system is used. Any model describes the the increase of space as a geometric volume change, that simply has some form of energy/matter density filling that volume.
 
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  • #190
38
2
Is this thread even going anywhere anymore?
Hello Drakkith again,

I think that Mordred has said it quite succinctly.
It seems that the problem is that those of us who can, or have ability to, give answers to questions/problems, have to use a medley of approaches which do not contain the essence of the properly constructed explanation(s)
When we give references to wiki/arXiv/web addy's and books; our contributions look,at best esoteric, and at worst, child-like in the extreme!
Anyway, I am content to continue to ask/answer questions, but I am aware that we may have exhausted the answers to:
"Where does new space come from as the universe gets bigger." (ibid)
Any suggestion?
I have seen 'our' forum people on other forums, within physicsworld.com, so, I shall keep coming back to see if there is any movement here on a regular basis.
I wish you all well people, it has been an excellent journey........so far.
(We may not have always seen eye-to-eye, but as we well know, that's life....and physics/mathematics!)
 
  • #191
D H
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Is this thread even going anywhere anymore?
This thread should have been closed a long time ago. It's closed now.
 

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