Wheres the energy loss?(Hgas & Ogas to H2O)

[chris arnold]

I'm trying to figure out the energy difference between (2)Hydrogen & Oxygen separate as gas, and (2)hydrogen and Oxygen bonded as water.

Example, if your split a water molecule, you have to give some form of energy to the molecule, this energy gives the gasses the required energy level to stand alone, thus combusting this gas now releases energy and bonds back with oxygen to form water again.

My questions, to break it all down so i get it right, please tell me which statements are true, and which are not, and fill me in on anything i may be missing.

When making water by bonding Hydro & Oxy:

#1)The energy loss comes from a loss of electrons
(2)hydrogenGas(1e) = 2e
(1)Oxygen(8e) H+O = 10e - 2e = Water(8e)

#2) No electrons are lost, only energy within the electric field
A hydrogen gasses electron is excited(contains extra energy within its electric field), same goes for Oxy, when this bond occurs:

a) the hydrogen's electron looses energy from electric field, but not the oxy
b) Both Gasses loose energy from their electric field

Is the extra charge in the atom or the electron?
Hypothetical: Say i could grab a hydrogen Ion(+) out of a water molecule, could i also grab an excited electron and stick them together and have a hydrogen gas atom?

Or would the energy be divided between the electron and ion? meaning; its not just an excited Electron, but also Ion. So a non-excited H-Ion from water mixed with an excited electron is still missing charge to become a H-Gas,

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also. an idea came to me, and i want to see if it would work.

Its bassed on a hydrogen fuel cell(chemical to electrical).

In a fuel cell the hydrogen atom is ionized and i assume attracted to the negative oxygen threw the proton only electrolyte, perhaps the oxygen is ionized also, either way, when they combine to create water. The electrons were forced to travel threw the wire + circuit where work was done and energy lost from the electric field, then electrons continue the path toward the cathode.

I'm unsure of the exact energy exchange, like weather the H+ion an electron meet back up, and that was the circuit, their electic field was drained, which made them able to bond with oxygen. Or if the oxygen became a negative O-ion, having 2 extra electrons, then the H+ion bonds with the O-ion, and the returning electrons that are part of the flow threw the circuit replace the electrons in the plate which ionized the oxygen.

back to my idea, will it work in theory?A hydrogen fuel cell Battery which operates in this fashion
1) Hydrogen flows over the anode becomming (+)ionized. The H+ion flows threw the electrolyte, the electron flows threw the circuit.
2) the cathode has a negative charge apllied to it(extra electrons, from an outside source.)
3) the hydrogen is put back together as low energy atom or remains an ion.
4) when all energy is sucked out of the hydrogen, you recharge by putting that energy back into the hydrogen.

In my theory(weather correct or not), the negative charge on the cathode should be the attraction force for the H+ion, when it gets there it picks up an electron from the cathode, which is replaced by the electron from the circuit. And the hydrogen atom comes back out the cathode...put back together.

Now, i am aware of conservation of energy. work was done so energy was lost, and the whole system consists only of a hydrogen atom with and extra outside source of electrons.

Is the H+ion going to remain a ion because of lack of energy to bond with its electron?

or will it bond but have low energy, to be a drained hydrogen atom, ready to bond to what it can when it can.

Or would the hydrogen atom comming back together full strength(H Gas) pull energy from the negative charged cathode draining that power source?

Or, would the whole system just fail? Diodes can be used to control flow of electrons. And by law of attraction the negative charged cathode is just the same(if not stronger) as an negative charged oxygen as far as attraction goes.
ok...something else just came to me.

in a normal hydrogen fuel cell. give the anode a positive charge from an outside source, would it increase the amount of hydrogen atoms ionized?

i do believe that's the big hold up on fuels cells, they don't get ionized fast enought to get good flow, so charge more at a time to get faster flow right?

 

[BigJDubs]

I'm sure this has already been thougth of...but i want to make sure.To answer your questions:1) The energy loss comes from a loss of electrons - This is correct. When two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom combine, the total number of electrons is reduced from 10 to 8, resulting in the release of energy. 2) No electrons are lost, only energy within the electric field - This is not correct. The electrons are lost during the reaction, resulting in the release of energy. The extra charge in the atom or the electron is in the electron. When a hydrogen atom is ionized, it has an extra electron that gives it a positive charge.Hypothetical: Yes, if you could grab a hydrogen ion (+) out of a water molecule, you could also grab an excited electron and stick them together and have a hydrogen gas atom. The energy would be divided between the electron and ion. Your idea of a hydrogen fuel cell battery operating in the way that you described is theoretically possible. In this type of fuel cell, the hydrogen atoms are ionized and attracted to the negative oxygen through the proton-only electrolyte. The oxygen may be ionized as well. When they combine to create water, the electrons are forced to travel through the wire and circuit, where work is done and energy is lost from the electric field. The electrons then continue the path towards the cathode.In general, yes, giving the anode a positive charge from an outside source can increase the amount of hydrogen atoms ionized, resulting in faster flow. This has already been thought of and is used in many hydrogen fuel cells.